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  #5526  
Old 05-26-2018, 02:26 AM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Thrall is Moses and Spartacus thrown in a blender while Arthas is Moorcock's Elric and King Arthur. That doesn't stop them from being adored.
Allusion is a bit of a different beast to winking the elbow so hard you put an eye out.

It's why people like Thrall and Arthas despite thier refferences while almost anything from Cataclysm is cringe inducing-particularly Uldum
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  #5527  
Old 05-26-2018, 03:29 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Arthas is hardly just an allusion. His story in WC3 "King Arthur goes and gets Stormbringer. brings ruin to his kingdom, be a pawn for demonic forces." Uldum is just sloppy is all.
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  #5528  
Old 05-26-2018, 05:04 AM
Sa'danak Sa'danak is offline

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Seems a shame to kill Dreven like that. I mean its cool that the Alliance gets fistpumping moments but i'd have preferred it be someone more played out. Nathanos for example is adding nothing to the plot anymore.
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  #5529  
Old 05-26-2018, 05:11 AM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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It helps that the Arthurian mythos is more respected as a piece of fiction than Rambo and other things like that. Thrall's inspirations aren't nearly as ridiculous either, or as obvious.
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And Lordaeron

ffs I'm the only one who cares aren't I
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  #5530  
Old 05-26-2018, 08:11 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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This also completely debunks the void elves as a "dark race" that some people were expecting. Umbric is pretty much what you'd expect from a high elf, except that he uses the void. I'm still not sold on void elves, thought. They lack their own personality and feel like a cheap compromise.
Hm, I'm not sure how you can do a quest where you send Goblins to suffocate in an endless abyss and not see that as quite dark. Umbric is very polite and quick to apologize to the rest of the Alliance members, but otherwise we get up to some pretty ruthless stuff against the Horde that really shows what Void Elves are capable of.

While I do think Void Elves skirt closer to High Elves in personality, I do still think this campaign has made them unique from the other elves. Their methods and tactics are uniquely their own, and their powerset makes them a darker High Elf that's still markedly distinguishable from Blood Elves.

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Er, you know it's an objective fact that the void elf part ends with them failing their mission, right? That's not a matter of opinion, and that's what I meant about no defeats except for the Galliwyx part.


I like Keeshan. Sure, a gimmicky character, but those types can easily graduate to serious character, and that seems to be the case with him.
I'd say it's the good kind of failure where we don't succeed at something but still come away learning something new or cool. In this case, we did not stop Gallywix but we did learn about Void Elf tactics and still sabotaged one of his most important areas.

And yeah, Keeshan was handled really well in this campaign, did not feel like a complete joke character at all. Overall this was an impressive campaign that took me by surprise with how good it was.
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  #5531  
Old 05-26-2018, 09:27 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Hm, I'm not sure how you can do a quest where you send Goblins to suffocate in an endless abyss and not see that as quite dark. Umbric is very polite and quick to apologize to the rest of the Alliance members, but otherwise we get up to some pretty ruthless stuff against the Horde that really shows what Void Elves are capable of.
All elves are ruthless. What I mean by "dark race" is one that that has questionable values. A lot of people were expecting the void elves to be these evil bastards that would taint the Alliance, but so far they do not seem like it.

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While I do think Void Elves skirt closer to High Elves in personality, I do still think this campaign has made them unique from the other elves. Their methods and tactics are uniquely their own, and their powerset makes them a darker High Elf that's still markedly distinguishable from Blood Elves.
For now I'm judging only over pictures, so my opinion may change.

I actually like that they are being portrayed more like high elves than drow-like dark elves. But I'm still hoping for them to be fleshed out beyond just using the void as a weapon. What I mean by this is to get answers on if/how they create more void elves, who they are recruiting, what kind of teachings the newcomers get, how is their relationship with the high elves and so on. I'm want to see them as a race and not just a combat unit.

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I'd say it's the good kind of failure where we don't succeed at something but still come away learning something new or cool. In this case, we did not stop Gallywix but we did learn about Void Elf tactics and still sabotaged one of his most important areas.
Sometimes I sound way more negative than I really am, so I'll list what I liked about it:

- Umbric's personality being fleshed out a bit
- Void elves doing something
- Yeah, it's a victory in the sense that we interrupted the goblin operations

My main complain lies in the decoy. I'd be far happier if some Horde character saved him at the last moment instead of Galliwyx just fooling us. I felt the way it was presented was a little contrived.

Quote:
And yeah, Keeshan was handled really well in this campaign, did not feel like a complete joke character at all. Overall this was an impressive campaign that took me by surprise with how good it was.
I agree. My opinion on the campaign is very positive so far. Various races participating, characters getting small shining moments, interaction between races, getting to know Umbric better. While far for perfect, I think it has been a pleasant surprise.
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  #5532  
Old 05-26-2018, 10:25 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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We already have WCIII Night Elves and Nightborne to be WC Drow.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 05-26-2018 at 10:29 AM..
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  #5533  
Old 05-26-2018, 03:35 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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Keeshan is perfectly fine here. Good even.
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  #5534  
Old 05-27-2018, 05:53 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
WCIII not only had the Alliance castaways and Horde work together but also introduced other factions of comparable strength to them (Scourge, Kal'dorei). It also had the factions lose members (Gilneas, Ogres). Point is, WCIII looked from all evidence to be moving the series beyond Orcs VS Humans (if not Alliance VS Horde) only to later give up.
Yeah, except the night elves were never planned to be independent in WoW, the only difference is that during their early conceptualization (1999), they were planned to be Horde affiliated, which is why their first concepts had them really savage, using axes, and having spirit animals including wolves.
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  #5535  
Old 05-27-2018, 08:39 AM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Yeah, except the night elves were never planned to be independent in WoW, the only difference is that during their early conceptualization (1999), they were planned to be Horde affiliated, which is why their first concepts had them really savage, using axes, and having spirit animals including wolves.
Hmm, that's interesting. Why'd Blizzard switch them to the Alliance?
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  #5536  
Old 05-27-2018, 10:42 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Hmm, that's interesting. Why'd Blizzard switch them to the Alliance?
When they decided to change soft factions to hard factions (making races unable to play together, communicate, the NPCs being always hostile), they decided to change their plans for the playable undead (from the Scourge which was to be an independent race to the newly conceptualized Forsaken) and make them Horde. To balance things out and to give the Alliance at least one race in Kalimdor (somewhat necessary with the new system, or so they thought), they switched the night elves to the Alliance. This happened sometime in 2002, after being inspired by Dark Age of Camelot and its faction system, ie during Warcraft III's beta. To reflect the change, they removed much of the tribalism and savagery the night elves had in their earlier concepts and during Warcraft III's alpha, though some remained.

That's why there are three different iterations of the Kaldorei that differ so vastly. The first one was from the time when they were planned to be Horde, being much more tribal and savage, the second iteration which was somewhere in between and was from the time where they decided to give them to the Alliance but did not have enough time to change everything, and the iteration we know from World of Warcraft.
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  #5537  
Old 05-27-2018, 01:48 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Yeah, except the night elves were never planned to be independent in WoW, the only difference is that during their early conceptualization (1999), they were planned to be Horde affiliated, which is why their first concepts had them really savage, using axes, and having spirit animals including wolves.

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
When they decided to change soft factions to hard factions (making races unable to play together, communicate, the NPCs being always hostile), they decided to change their plans for the playable undead (from the Scourge which was to be an independent race to the newly conceptualized Forsaken) and make them Horde. To balance things out and to give the Alliance at least one race in Kalimdor (somewhat necessary with the new system, or so they thought), they switched the night elves to the Alliance. This happened sometime in 2002, after being inspired by Dark Age of Camelot and its faction system, ie during Warcraft III's beta. To reflect the change, they removed much of the tribalism and savagery the night elves had in their earlier concepts and during Warcraft III's alpha, though some remained.

That's why there are three different iterations of the Kaldorei that differ so vastly. The first one was from the time when they were planned to be Horde, being much more tribal and savage, the second iteration which was somewhere in between and was from the time where they decided to give them to the Alliance but did not have enough time to change everything, and the iteration we know from World of Warcraft.
Citation needed for much of this. Doesn't address the problem with Alliance Night Elves either (being weakened so that Humans can be the ones who save the say).
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  #5538  
Old 05-28-2018, 04:37 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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It still pisses me the fuck off that Kul Tiran war heroes are ready to jump ship almost at once and side with the Forsaken as they work to destroy Kul Tiras

also the horde war campaign ends with them destroying the Kul Tiran fleet while the Alliance war campaign ends with them blowing up a single ship

but there's no horde bias not at fucking all

edit: Plus since most of the Blizzard devs responsible for WoW's story have blocked me I can't tweet my criticisms at them. ah well
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.

Last edited by Quirnheim; 05-28-2018 at 04:46 PM..
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  #5539  
Old 05-28-2018, 04:53 PM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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Maybe that's a sign that harassing people on the internet isnot the best use of your time.
Maybe.
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  #5540  
Old 05-28-2018, 04:56 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Maybe that's a sign that harassing people on the internet isnot the best use of your time.
Maybe.
Or maybe they just don't like hearing the cold hard truth that they are biased and actively trying to destroy the Alliance faction so that everyone rolls Horde so they can write for what makes their dick hard - Sylvanas and Friends

so to recap, the Alliance "war campaign" ends with them destroying a single Zandalari boat

the Horde one ends with them destroying a good chunk of the Kul Tiran fleet, stealing Derek Proudmoore's corpse for "later use"(fuck you mr "oh its just a decoy plan") and stealing an artefact from the Tidesages that gives them control over the seas

Oh and all these Kul Tirans they res as Forsaken immediately jump ship and join them.

but hey, there's no bias. Dream land is bliss I guess
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #5541  
Old 05-28-2018, 06:12 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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An interesting note: at the start of the final quest chain, its said we're sabotaging the Zandalari flagships to prepare the way for a planned future alliance assault on Zuldazar with the purpose of taking King Rastakhan hostage "dead or alive". I'm now 99% sure that's what the "Zuldazar Raid 8.1" map is for.

Last edited by Insane Guy of Doom; 05-28-2018 at 06:25 PM..
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  #5542  
Old 05-28-2018, 06:55 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
An interesting note: at the start of the final quest chain, its said we're sabotaging the Zandalari flagships to prepare the way for a planned future alliance assault on Zuldazar with the purpose of taking King Rastakhan hostage "dead or alive". I'm now 99% sure that's what the "Zuldazar Raid 8.1" map is for.
Ahh back to the ol' Wait and See bullshit from Cataclysm eh, IGOD?

The Horde get to blow up an entire fleet, steal a tide-artifact and steal the corpse of Jaina's brother, who they will probably raise as a dick-waving Forsaken after 3 seconds of being un-dead, like the rest of the NPC's they have.

The Alliance blow up one ship and spend time with pop culture references in John Keeshan.

Take the rose colored glasses off, man. Just because Blizzard Sempai noticed you doesn't mean you have to parrot and defend their crap as "wait and see"
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #5543  
Old 05-28-2018, 07:25 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Originally Posted by Quirnheim View Post
Ahh back to the ol' Wait and See bullshit from Cataclysm eh, IGOD?

The Horde get to blow up an entire fleet, steal a tide-artifact and steal the corpse of Jaina's brother, who they will probably raise as a dick-waving Forsaken after 3 seconds of being un-dead, like the rest of the NPC's they have.

The Alliance blow up one ship and spend time with pop culture references in John Keeshan.

Take the rose colored glasses off, man. Just because Blizzard Sempai noticed you doesn't mean you have to parrot and defend their crap as "wait and see"
I wasn't responding to you, if I were trying to refute your comment I would have quoted you. I've been interested in trying to figure out what the purpose of "Zuldazar Raid 8.1" would be since WoWhead first datamined it, as all the enemy characters in Zandalar are killed in Uldir. This was just me announcing that I think, based on that line, I've figured out what it could be about.

To actually reply to your original post, while it does seem a bit lack luster compared to the Horde one, you are overlooking the fact that they plant bombs on all of Zandalari flagships. While we see only one blow up, it appears to be a case of Blizzard poorly showing what they told, that were blew up more than that.
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  #5544  
Old 05-28-2018, 09:27 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
While we see only one blow up, it appears to be a case of Blizzard poorly showing what they told, that were blew up more than that.
Nah you were right the first time, the NPC explicitly says they are holding off on blowing up the rest of the ships until they are ready to make another strike.
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  #5545  
Old 05-28-2018, 10:08 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Citation needed for much of this. Doesn't address the problem with Alliance Night Elves either (being weakened so that Humans can be the ones who save the say).
Well, as to your point, the fact stands that the night elves getting weaker has nothing to do with the humans, they have planned Night Elves getting weakened since the race's conception. The whole campaign of Warcraft III was about the night elves getting their lands and all ruined, and the World of Warcraft explicitly stated that you are one of the few Kaldorei remaining in the world.

As for the night elves being the Horde, look to this concept map from 1999. The green triangles represent Horde settlements, the blue represents Alliance settlements, and the red represents independent races such as naga and undead.

https://i.imgur.com/p5ndmtA.png

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
To actually reply to your original post, while it does seem a bit lack luster compared to the Horde one, you are overlooking the fact that they plant bombs on all of Zandalari flagships. While we see only one blow up, it appears to be a case of Blizzard poorly showing what they told, that were blew up more than that.
I'm gonna call placeholder on it, just like the fight with Shandris and Dreven because it seems like something special is supposed to happen when Dreven covers himself in a blood shield and then suddenly it's just gone and he's dead.

Last edited by Lord Grimtale; 05-28-2018 at 10:12 PM..
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  #5546  
Old 05-28-2018, 11:14 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Nah you were right the first time, the NPC explicitly says they are holding off on blowing up the rest of the ships until they are ready to make another strike.
Uh-huh. And when's that strike supposed to happen? Probably the same time we get to visit Farahlon, right?
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #5547  
Old 05-28-2018, 11:47 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Oh and all these Kul Tirans they res as Forsaken immediately jump ship and join them.
Undead beings in the universe of Warcraft are most often loyal to the ones who raised them:

Quote:
Madrigosa yells: Hold, friends! There is information to be had before this devil meets his fate!
Madrigosa creates a wall of ice between the Den of Iniquity and the Dead Scar, preventing the raid from passing.
Madrigosa yells: Where is Anveena, demon? What has become of Kalec?
Brutallus yells: Puny lizard! Death is the only answer you'll find here!
Madrigosa freezes Brutallus.
Madrigosa yells: You will tell me where they are!
Brutallus breaks free from the ice.
Brutallus yells: Bagh! Your magic is weak!
Madrigosa traps Brutallus in an arcane barrier.
Madrigosa yells: Speak! I grow weary of asking!
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Madrigosa

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Intro
Glory to Kil'jaeden! Death to all who oppose!

Killing a player

I kill for the master!
The end has come!

Breath
Choke on your final breath!

Take-off
I am stronger than ever before!

Berserk
No more hesitation! Your fates are written!

Death
Kil'jaeden will... prevail!

Outro
Kalecgos yells: Madrigosa deserved a far better fate. You did what had to be done, but this battle is far from over!
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Felmyst
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  #5548  
Old 05-28-2018, 11:52 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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It still seems incredibly moronic that you would immediately go all gung ho for the people WHO KILLED YOU while forgetting all about the people you died trying to protect.

It honestly reeks of horde bias, just trying to justify their attacks on Kul Tiras. Besides, they get a hold of Derek Proudmoore's corpse, so that tired cliche will come true.

face it. the horde are always written to come out on top. Blizzard is actively trying to destroy the Alliance faction as much as they want to deny it.
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #5549  
Old 05-28-2018, 11:58 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Well, as to your point, the fact stands that the night elves getting weaker has nothing to do with the humans, they have planned Night Elves getting weakened since the race's conception.
According to you.

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
The whole campaign of Warcraft III was about the night elves getting their lands and all ruined
No more than the Humans did, especially since the Scourge wasn't designed to genocide them above all others. We even had comments about Archimonde torching Jaina's countrymen and Garithos' army being the last pocket of Human resistance in Lordaeron (odd in light of the Scarlet Crusade being around)

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
and the World of Warcraft explicitly stated that you are one of the few Kaldorei remaining in the world.
Could also be said for Humans.

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
As for the night elves being the Horde, look to this concept map from 1999. The green triangles represent Horde settlements, the blue represents Alliance settlements, and the red represents independent races such as naga and undead.

https://i.imgur.com/p5ndmtA.png
I'll request to know where else the pic can be found. Or at least a non-blurry
version.
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  #5550  
Old 05-29-2018, 12:08 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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It still seems incredibly moronic that you would immediately go all gung ho for the people WHO KILLED YOU while forgetting all about the people you died trying to protect.
Dude, that's exactly how necromancy has always┬╣ worked in Warcraft, ever since Warcraft III. Shut your mouth and use your brain.


┬╣: bar a few exceptions here and there
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