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  #6426  
Old 10-26-2016, 03:45 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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So, GG has sort of been in hibernation for awhile, but it's looking like the other shoe (publishing) is beginning to drop.

Bethesda's not doing review copies anymore. The responses have been... Interesting..

http://www.thedailycrate.com/editori...me-journalism/

http://kotaku.com/youre-going-to-get...ryo-1788211648



Now, this has been coming for a long time, what with the rise of Streamers and Godtubers, and I do think GG sort of sped up the process drastically, but..

I can't stress enough how anti-consumer I think no review copies are in theory. I mean, Batman Arkham Knight on PC is a good example of why shit shouldn't fly.

That being said, I think have a certain amount of satisfaction seeing this happen, because It was only a matter of time
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  #6427  
Old 10-26-2016, 03:57 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
So, GG has sort of been in hibernation for awhile, but it's looking like the other shoe (publishing) is beginning to drop.

Bethesda's not doing review copies anymore. The responses have been... Interesting..

http://www.thedailycrate.com/editori...me-journalism/

http://kotaku.com/youre-going-to-get...ryo-1788211648

https://twitter.com/gaetano_prestia/...96506641113088


Now, this has been coming for a long time, what with the rise of Streamers and Godtubers, and I do think GG sort of sped up the process drastically, but..

I can't stress enough how anti-consumer I think no review copies are in theory. I mean, Batman Arkham Knight on PC is a good example of why shit shouldn't fly.

That being said, I think have a certain amount of satisfaction seeing this happen, because It was only a matter of time
I read the Daily Crate article. I'm not sure you can really expect people not to share their first impressions. Even if journalists don't, their readers will. So far as I can tell, the end result would be the same.

Unfortunately, the very nature of the modern media landscape makes "outrage culture" all but unavoidable. The simple fact is that it's easier to be emotional than it is to be intellectual, and most people will take the easy way out.

"Oh, how dare they put a black person in my pseudo-European fantasy world! Those SJWs are ruining gaming!"

"Oh, how dare they not include a non-cisexual in this racing game! Those GamerGaters are ruining gaming."

Anger like that gets clicks, and that drives business. I guess companies have to learn to anticipate this (it helps that the reactions tend to be predictable, if diametrically opposed), though I'm not sure what the best course of action could be.

Regardless, I think games journalism was clearly in bad shape when so many journalists praised Bioshock Infinite for it's "depth". Hell, you could even take this back to the first Bioshock, which while a good game, wasn't particularly profound.
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  #6428  
Old 10-26-2016, 04:17 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
I read the Daily Crate article. I'm not sure you can really expect people not to share their first impressions. Even if journalists don't, their readers will. So far as I can tell, the end result would be the same.

Unfortunately, the very nature of the modern media landscape makes "outrage culture" all but unavoidable. The simple fact is that it's easier to be emotional than it is to be intellectual, and most people will take the easy way out.

"Oh, how dare they put a black person in my pseudo-European fantasy world! Those SJWs are ruining gaming!"

"Oh, how dare they not include a non-cisexual in this racing game! Those GamerGaters are ruining gaming."

Anger like that gets clicks, and that drives business. I guess companies have to learn to anticipate this (it helps that the reactions tend to be predictable, if diametrically opposed), though I'm not sure what the best course of action could be.

Regardless, I think games journalism was clearly in bad shape when so many journalists praised Bioshock Infinite for it's "depth". Hell, you could even take this back to the first Bioshock, which while a good game, wasn't particularly profound.
I think Bioshock was in a bit of a rare spot, honestly.

There was a 4-5 year period in gaming where narrative muscles were flexed and we got some "classics" that honestly aren't that great, but they are really a cut above what came before.

KOTOR is the legend, despite KOTORII being the objectively better ((and more clever) game.

Jade Empire is fairly bog standard, but also a classic that doesn't really hold up .

Bioshock sort of falls in there, and thus it's legacy is almost sacrosanct. They don't really deserve the praise, but they hit the right time to get it.
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  #6429  
Old 10-26-2016, 04:22 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I think Bioshock was in a bit of a rare spot, honestly.

There was a 4-5 year period in gaming where narrative muscles were flexed and we got some "classics" that honestly aren't that great, but they are really a cut above what came before.

KOTOR is the legend, despite KOTORII being the objectively better ((and more clever) game.

Jade Empire is fairly bog standard, but also a classic that doesn't really hold up .

Bioshock sort of falls in there, and thus it's legacy is almost sacrosanct. They don't really deserve the praise, but they hit the right time to get it.
I don't want to rag on the first Bioshock. It was a good game, and I liked it. The moral choice element was pretty laughable, though. They could have actually made the moral choice work if Atlas's concerns about his family were genuine--that by saving the Little Sisters, you're decreasing your ability to save others.

But this isn't borne out mechanically, since saving the Little Sisters doesn't significantly affect your gameplay. Nor does it matter in terms of narrative. Atlas is a con, but even in that guise, he doesn't seem particularly concerned about his wife and kids dying due to your desire to save the Little Sisters. He's very upset when they do "die" of course, but he never blames the player, even though (in theory) by not saving the Little Sisters the player might have been able to help Atlas's wife and kids.

Though again, it's all a con, so that complicates things. The game doesn't present the choice with any real ambiguity, however. It's a very clear good vs evil decision.

Bioshock did a better job in exploring narrative with the "Will You Kindly" subplot. Except I think Portal did the same thing much more elegantly.

And Bioshock Infinite is a confused, nonsensical mess.
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  #6430  
Old 10-26-2016, 06:50 PM
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I don't want to rag on the first Bioshock. It was a good game, and I liked it. The moral choice element was pretty laughable, though. They could have actually made the moral choice work if Atlas's concerns about his family were genuine--that by saving the Little Sisters, you're decreasing your ability to save others.

But this isn't borne out mechanically, since saving the Little Sisters doesn't significantly affect your gameplay. Nor does it matter in terms of narrative. Atlas is a con, but even in that guise, he doesn't seem particularly concerned about his wife and kids dying due to your desire to save the Little Sisters. He's very upset when they do "die" of course, but he never blames the player, even though (in theory) by not saving the Little Sisters the player might have been able to help Atlas's wife and kids.

Though again, it's all a con, so that complicates things. The game doesn't present the choice with any real ambiguity, however. It's a very clear good vs evil decision.

Bioshock did a better job in exploring narrative with the "Will You Kindly" subplot. Except I think Portal did the same thing much more elegantly.

And Bioshock Infinite is a confused, nonsensical mess.
To be fair, moral choice systems in video games are usually so ridiculous as to make no sense whatsoever.

I mean heck, I love Infamous and its sequel, but I<d have a hard time defending the moral choice system in those games.
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  #6431  
Old 10-26-2016, 06:52 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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To be fair, moral choice systems in video games are usually so ridiculous as to make no sense whatsoever.

I mean heck, I love Infamous and its sequel, but I<d have a hard time defending the moral choice system in those games.
I legit felt and was a worse person playing Light side Jedi Knight as I was Dark Side Sith Warrior in TOR
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  #6432  
Old 10-26-2016, 07:21 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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To be fair, moral choice systems in video games are usually so ridiculous as to make no sense whatsoever.

I mean heck, I love Infamous and its sequel, but I<d have a hard time defending the moral choice system in those games.
Agreed. Which is why I don't think they're really a good system. It's better to have multiple options that aren't morally labeled, like what you have in Planescape: Torment or a Fallout game.
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  #6433  
Old 10-27-2016, 04:33 AM
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KOTOR2 is hot garbage if you don't have the mod to finish it.

That's just me, though.
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  #6434  
Old 10-27-2016, 04:46 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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I legit felt and was a worse person playing Light side Jedi Knight as I was Dark Side Sith Warrior in TOR
I played Gray in TOR. Though sometimes I had to be a bit more ruthless than I prefer to keep the Gray leveled out.
Really satisfying to pick Dark options that results in showing no mercy to the enemy.
Like breaking the neck with the Force of a passed out traitor.
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  #6435  
Old 10-27-2016, 05:16 AM
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KOTOR2 is hot garbage if you don't have the mod to finish it.

That's just me, though.
It's flawed, granted, but garbage? Fuck no.
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  #6436  
Old 10-27-2016, 06:47 AM
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So, GG has sort of been in hibernation for awhile, but it's looking like the other shoe (publishing) is beginning to drop.
I don't think that's the case. I think it's just has evolved.

GamerGate made a lot of people question things, and when you start, there's no stop. Videogame industry is just one front of war, the first to really stand out and fight back, but just one.

So GamerGate was first, but then we've had other things. Lot of people was "redpilled" with the videogame industry bullshit, and then the "refugee" crisis kicked in, followed by a shameless ton of propaganda that pretty much pretended all the previous pro-immigration stances never happened, because they didn't fit the narrative anymore. Those who questioned the crisis saw the same rhetoric and attacks, in a different field. The size of the crisis made things go quicker, and thus you could see the narrative spin daily. Terrorist attacks only made it even more clear.

Then there's the USA presidential election. Say what you want about Trump, I don't care, and it doesn't matter for this conversation. But there's something clear, and it's that the same shameless media bias in the two previous events was back. Meanwhile, WikiLeaks, not long ago admired by the entire left, is now the enemy because they're uncovering Hillary's criminal shit. The news barely mention the leaks, while making up shit about Trump constantly. And it wasn't just Trump, Sanders got a lot of shit as well.

All these 3 movements ha a stable foundation at reddit, even if one was nuked, and represent the evolution so far pretty clearly:

* KotakuInAction
* European (Nuked at the peak of its popularity)
* The_Donald

There's been ramifications (Brexit people and European), other independent groups joining (like is the case with Sanders voters moving to Trump), and also the presence of the chans, more 8chan than 4chan (which is full of bullshit nowadays).

Lot of people who were just angry at feminazis trying to turn videogames into propaganda dug up to deep and found the roots of the problem, which is progressives, globalism, cultural marxism, political correctness, SJWs, etc, name it as you want.

So yeah, now the classic GGers are busy with other bigger battles, but I wouldn't say the movement disappeared. We might see them back if stuff happens again, but for now, they're behind Trump. Not necessarily because they give a damn about him, just because they know the enemy, and will fight to defeat it, no matter what it takes, and no matter the allies.

After Trump I don't know what will the next step be. Probably might go back to European politics, once elections start coming in. What's clear is that there's been a chain of events that has made people distrust and resent the media greatly, and for good reasons. The pendulum is swinging, too, and I think we can expect to see a prolonged existence of the SJW problem spawn far right problems, and even lead to a civil war state.

Internet censorship could be a good next battlefield as well. Remember how the Internet united against stuff like SOPA and PIPA? Now those discussions are widely censored, and only those part of the evolution actually discuss it, which leads to people outside those spheres to join them to get their news. Nowadays it's not hard to see far right, non-progressive left, conservative, nationalist, anonymous, anarchist, and freedom of speech people together, all under the same banner, even if years ago that was impossible.

I find these happenings very interesting, and once you've read a lot, it's not hard to see this evolution through what gets posted. I value my Internet a lot, so I just hope they win before things get ugly.
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  #6437  
Old 10-27-2016, 07:06 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Probably might go back to European politics, once elections start coming in.
I agree with you except for this. Europe is a lost cause. Years ago I thought it's current state would be impossible. It's leadership can't be this stupid. And here we are today, where authorities will visit you if you say mean things about ''refugees'' in certain countries. Is it a coincidence Hungary is experiencing a sudden wave of Germans moving in to stay? Think of it, it's Hungary, not France or Great Britain. A fractured Europe could also play an important role in NATO's existence here. At this point I just hope none of this bullshit spreads on my turf, we have enough to deal with already.

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  #6438  
Old 10-27-2016, 08:40 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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I agree with you except for this. Europe is a lost cause. Years ago I thought it's current state would be impossible. It's leadership can't be this stupid. And here we are today, where authorities will visit you if you say mean things about ''refugees'' in certain countries. Is it a coincidence Hungary is experiencing a sudden wave of Germans moving in to stay? Think of it, it's Hungary, not France or Great Britain. A fractured Europe could also play an important role in NATO's existence here. At this point I just hope none of this bullshit spreads on my turf, we have enough to deal with already.
I'm not talking about who wins or not, just presidential campaigns for various countries. France can be specially nuclear, socialists and conservatives banding together to save their sorry asses was pretty goddamn shameful.
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  #6439  
Old 10-27-2016, 01:39 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Gamergate totally misses the point of the issue..

Who the fuck cares if Quinn or whatever sleeps around? And?

It matters that she did so with her boss, her reviewers, and others in positions where she had something to gain.

It's about fucking corruption, not sexism, and somehow the sexist crowd got it all tangled about.
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What it is is proof that geek and gaming culture isn't mature and ready enough to be taken seriously.

Which is a shame, because it's A) not really true, and B) only because the worst of the worst of this community always seems to jump forward first.
First two posts by me in this thread..

TOP FUCKING KEK.

Sigh, it's been a long ride
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Old 10-27-2016, 04:36 PM
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First two posts by me in this thread..
Well ain't you the high-tom-titty.
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  #6441  
Old 10-27-2016, 04:43 PM
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Well ain't you the high-tom-titty.
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  #6442  
Old 09-11-2017, 11:58 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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So, some of this has popped back up with the recent Cuphead debacle. Basically, a dude spends an embarassing amount of time and fails at a tutorial. Its laughably bad.

This revived the "If you arent good at games why are you a games writer argument"

Of course, theres now a bunch of articles defending the guy and saying gamers have an elitism problem.

The twist? The Journo who did this vid had issues with Mass Effect 1.... He was so bad at it, he actively got the game changed due to his ineptitude.

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Old 09-11-2017, 12:06 PM
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So, some of this has popped back up with the recent Cuphead debacle. Basically, a dude spends an embarassing amount of time and fails at a tutorial. Its laughably bad.

This revived the "If you arent good at games why are you a games writer argument"

Of course, theres now a bunch of articles defending the guy and saying gamers have an elitism problem.

The twist? The Journo who did this vid had issues with Mass Effect 1.... He was so bad at it, he actively got the game changed due to his ineptitude.
I think this probably fits better in the regular videogame thread. Then again, I still don't understand what the whole gamergate thing is/was about other than a bunch of raging nerds.
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:38 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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I think this probably fits better in the regular videogame thread. Then again, I still don't understand what the whole gamergate thing is/was about other than a bunch of raging nerds.
It might, but I wanted to err on the side of caution.
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  #6445  
Old 09-11-2017, 01:14 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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So, some of this has popped back up with the recent Cuphead debacle. Basically, a dude spends an embarassing amount of time and fails at a tutorial. Its laughably bad.

This revived the "If you arent good at games why are you a games writer argument"

Of course, theres now a bunch of articles defending the guy and saying gamers have an elitism problem.

The twist? The Journo who did this vid had issues with Mass Effect 1.... He was so bad at it, he actively got the game changed due to his ineptitude.

https://twitter.com/deantak/status/906768747720974336
Writing for a game seems like it'd draw on a different set of skills than playing one, so I'm not sure that skill is necessarily that important. On the other hand, an inability to experience games due to a lack of skill would also be a problem.

A lot of big companies make games really easy these days, and I think that's more to do with reaching a larger audience. It's not my favorite trend, but those of us who are willing to git gud still have games like Dark Souls, so I'm not terribly concerned.
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Old 09-11-2017, 02:38 PM
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Writing for a game seems like it'd draw on a different set of skills than playing one, so I'm not sure that skill is necessarily that important. On the other hand, an inability to experience games due to a lack of skill would also be a problem.
A somewhat average proficiency in the type of game you write about seems a reasonable requirement.
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Old 09-11-2017, 02:42 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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A somewhat average proficiency in the type of game you write about seems a reasonable requirement.
Yeah, a poor ability would limit one's range, which means that fewer games could be experienced, limiting the writer's knowledge. Watching LPs wouldn't cut it, since games are an experiential medium.

That said, I think games becoming easier has more to do with trying to find a large audience than anything else. Also because people put a lot of work into games, and want to make sure that the average gamer can still enjoy the content.

As long as there's variety in difficulty, I don't really care that much.
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Old 09-11-2017, 04:13 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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It is pretty standard that journalists have no idea what they are talking about when they report thing. They aren't trained in every possible thing they can report on. Everything is perceived from a journalist lens.
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Old 09-11-2017, 05:07 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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It is pretty standard that journalists have no idea what they are talking about when they report thing. They aren't trained in every possible thing they can report on. Everything is perceived from a journalist lens.

Heres the video.

In my mind, FWIW, you dont have to be great at video games to write about them. As Dunmerbro points out, writing is a skill not required for gaming, and vice versa.

However, much like the Polygon Doom video, theres a certain level of give a shit and competency you need to have in order to even understand what it is you are reviewing.

This took him 4 minutes to clear the first jump of the tutorial, with instructions on screen telling him how to do it.

Dunmerbro mentioned Dark Souls. It concerned me a lot (hobby wise)because the remake of Crash Bandicoot was being held up as Dark Soulsian in nature due to its difficulty. Games are easier now, yes. I think thats a given. But when it gets to this level, at what point do we stop?

And, conversely, Walking Sim games dont need skills. They are perfectly viable games, itta interactive entertainment. Should people who write about games be expected to be able to actually play them considering the sheer amount of variance?
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:38 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=848Y1Uu5Htk

Heres the video.

In my mind, FWIW, you dont have to be great at video games to write about them. As Dunmerbro points out, writing is a skill not required for gaming, and vice versa.

However, much like the Polygon Doom video, theres a certain level of give a shit and competency you need to have in order to even understand what it is you are reviewing.

This took him 4 minutes to clear the first jump of the tutorial, with instructions on screen telling him how to do it.

Dunmerbro mentioned Dark Souls. It concerned me a lot (hobby wise)because the remake of Crash Bandicoot was being held up as Dark Soulsian in nature due to its difficulty. Games are easier now, yes. I think thats a given. But when it gets to this level, at what point do we stop?

And, conversely, Walking Sim games dont need skills. They are perfectly viable games, itta interactive entertainment. Should people who write about games be expected to be able to actually play them considering the sheer amount of variance?
First, thanks for acknowledging my Dunmer identity. I feel validated.

Hmm... so I can actually see how the demo's instructions might have been misinterpreted. The directions "Y - Dash - Quick Evade on Ground or Air" were placed right before the big obstacle. Thus, someone might misinterpret the instructions to mean that you're supposed to dash to get over it.

The solution ("A - Jump - Tap for Short, Hold for High Jump") is placed before the shorter obstacle, and are already at the edge of the screen by the time you get to the big obstacle. Granted, it's by no means terribly complex, but I can see how someone might get a little confused. The directions are not well-placed.

Now, maybe that's what he was trying to do, and he just failed at it. None of us know what was going on in his head. We've all had brain farts.

This stuff does matter. I used to work in Internet marketing, and it's been shown that people can miss important elements on a website if those elements aren't well-placed. I'm not sure that this episode alone would count as a deficiency in skill. I have no idea as to how difficult Cuphead is or isn't, so I can't comment on his ability when it comes to the actual game.

Honestly, I'd need to know a little bit more about what he was having a hard time with before I offer an opinion. The video alone doesn't give enough evidence.

When they described the Crash Bandicoot as being like Dark Souls, did they mean it? As in, was it really that difficult? Or was that just marketing-speak?

I was annoyed at how easy Diablo III was. You could pretty much win that game by weighing down your mouse button. I'm still flabbergasted that anyone thought it was a good game (I put it in the same category as BioShock: Infinite—games whose popularity I am unable to understand).
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Last edited by HlaaluStyle; 09-11-2017 at 08:49 PM..
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