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Old 12-08-2014, 07:43 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Default "Your opponent discards a random card."

Does anyone else feel this mechanic could have a place in Hearthstone? I've heard that they left it out on purpose to give the game a more "casual" feel, but I don't buy it. If you can play a superminion and have it randomly stolen by the other player (e.g. Sylvanas) without breaking the feel of casual play, then it should be less painful to have the superminion simply discarded from your hand instead.

I've also heard you guys say that certain Rogue decks suffer from this mechanic not existing. It could also potentially become a hero trait for future death knights or even monks. Who knows?

Do you guys have opinions on this?
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Old 12-08-2014, 08:10 AM
Volkrin Volkrin is offline

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The thing about forced discard mechanics is that they're removing options and from the afflicted player. Even if your opponent has the means to trivially kill off everything you put on the board, you're still getting to put it on the board and play the game. Discard mechanics are problematic not because they aren't casual, but because they're essentially designed to prevent one's opponent from actually being able to play.
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Old 12-08-2014, 08:13 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I guess it kind of has to do with the deck size, too.
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Old 12-08-2014, 08:15 AM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Its called 'milling' in trading card games; where you use hand and deck destruction effects to cause your opponent to run out of cards before they can even get to play them.
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Old 12-08-2014, 08:31 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkrin View Post
Discard mechanics are problematic not because they aren't casual, but because they're essentially designed to prevent one's opponent from actually being able to play.
I... guess I see the argument, but I'm not a believer. I'd say the game already flirts that line.

A rushing deck kills an opponent before he can play (or see) most of his cards... Rogue mill decks force a hand beyond its size limit so that newly-drawn or battlefield-sapped cards can get burned... some skill and luck can have you with early board control that your opponent literally cannot answer, making it essentially the same as preventing him from being able to play...

Yeah I know it's not exactly the same, and I see where the argument's coming from. I just don't agree.
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:58 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I... guess I see the argument, but I'm not a believer. I'd say the game already flirts that line.

A rushing deck kills an opponent before he can play (or see) most of his cards... Rogue mill decks force a hand beyond its size limit so that newly-drawn or battlefield-sapped cards can get burned... some skill and luck can have you with early board control that your opponent literally cannot answer, making it essentially the same as preventing him from being able to play...

Yeah I know it's not exactly the same, and I see where the argument's coming from. I just don't agree.
This is how I see it as well. Getting rushed to death is hardly more interactive than losing cards outright, and this playstyle would be balanced to allow for a counter, probably in the form of losing board control in exchange for milling. It might be an interesting option in the future and Blizzard has been known to go against their word, when enough time passes.

That said, it would only further empower rush decks because it is those that would be least affected by losing cards AND would get to burn down the mill deck the fastest for the best chance of racing them to the win.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:24 PM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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In Yu-Gi-Oh!, most of the Mill Cards landed on the ban list because they became "I win" buttons.

Mill Decks are hard to balance, so I can understand the Blizzard doesn't want to enable that strategy in Hearthstone.
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Old 12-08-2014, 05:21 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Originally Posted by Vineyard View Post
In Yu-Gi-Oh!, most of the Mill Cards landed on the ban list because they became "I win" buttons.

Mill Decks are hard to balance, so I can understand the Blizzard doesn't want to enable that strategy in Hearthstone.
I kinda disagree, you could build a pretty solid mill deck in Yu-Gi-Oh. Cards like Needle Worm, where as soon as its flipped your opponent instantly loses the top five cards of the deck (or about 12.5% of their total cards,) were never on the ban lists. Other than Cyber Jar and maybe Hand Destruction the designers didn't really punish milling. It was a recognized play-style, just like stall or burn decks.

What they did do was introduce an archetype called the Crystal Beasts that were purely-designed to counter mill-players. If their cards were sent from the deck to the graveyard, they got summoned to the field instantly. Its not too difficult to balance, like Baron says a pure-beatdown deck can break a player that's trying to go for card and hand destruction before they even get started. But I don't really know anything about Hearthstone, so I can't really say if they would work there.
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Old 12-16-2014, 08:34 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I kinda disagree, you could build a pretty solid mill deck in Yu-Gi-Oh. Cards like Needle Worm, where as soon as its flipped your opponent instantly loses the top five cards of the deck (or about 12.5% of their total cards,) were never on the ban lists. Other than Cyber Jar and maybe Hand Destruction the designers didn't really punish milling. It was a recognized play-style, just like stall or burn decks.
. . .

Okay, I think I'm imagining this thing from the barest beginnings, while you guys have the full vantage of years upon years of powercreep, in other card games. Wiping out a major percent of players' cards before they are even drawn?

So I have a game called Star Wars: Epic Duels, which came out around Episode II. Pretty simple stuff-- it involves cards and character pieces. It had a discard mechanic, but not every character had access to it.

Luke had two annoying cards called "I Will Not Fight You" which revealed both players' hands and discarded all cards with a major attack value... but it was really hard for him to use, since his deck was filled with attack cards. Han had two really fun cards called "Gambler's Luck" which, if it succeeded in attacking, discarded an enemy card at random... it was really satisfying if you knocked a really good card out of the other guy's hand. And the Emperor had discard as his specialty, with two Force Lightning cards which did damage and discarded a random card, and his whammy You Will Die card which discarded the other guy's full hand... but it wasn't always devastating, since the Emperor cards were weak on attacking and follow-ups.

I'm not talking about cards that destroy a third of your enemy's deck before he even draws them.
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