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  #101  
Old 06-18-2018, 12:35 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Darnassus can be regrown, and the Undercity can be cleaned. The fact that the Horde and Alliance could only pull a blitzkrieg destruction of the cities, and then had to retreat, tells me that they won't/can't hold the lands forever.

They've been building Sylvanas up as a villain since Cataclysm. Them pulling a "redemption", Kerrigan-style, out of their ass would be extremely stupid and cheap. They've also said that there will be a "reckoning" with Sylvanas, that she will go too far, and that we will have to "deal with her" eventually.

They also hinted at killing her off in the recent Q&A.
People have been saying she’s in line to be a raid boss since Cataclysm, but that doesn’t mean she’s actually being set up as one.
- Cata: she invaded/gassed Gilneas, gassed Southshore, and started raising undead. So she invaded an already broken kingdom, eliminated the most annoying grieving grounds in WoW, and actually created some of our player characters.
- Mists: conspired to do the world a favor by assassinating Garrosh.
- WoD: wasn’t involved
- Legion: Called the retreat on the Broken Shore, tried to steal the Val’kyr. So she saved the Horde from annihilation and annoyed the Keeper most likely to become a Raid Boss.

Reckoning is vague. I have no doubt her plot arc is going to change, perhaps drastically. You see, unlike Garrosh, we have a lot more insights on Sylvanas. What still tugs, her heartstrings, what lines she’s still not quite ready to cross. She’s still a protagonist, just as she has been since TFT. The Loa chose her for a reason. The Zandalar expansion seems to be a good place to find out what that is.
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  #102  
Old 06-18-2018, 01:46 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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- Legion: Called the retreat on the Broken Shore, tried to steal the Val’kyr. So she saved the Horde from annihilation and annoyed the Keeper most likely to become a Raid Boss.
Removing the ability of arguably the largest army fighting the Legion to replenish and transport its troops is a significantly bigger deal than just "annoying" Odyn. If she'd gotten what she wanted in Stormheim it could easily have cost us the entire war.

Not to mention in doing so she was helping Helya, whose Kvaldir were actively trying to kill Azeroth's champions and their allies as we were in the midst of fending off the Legion.

As for "saving the Horde from annihilation," frankly the pitiful showing both factions made at the Broken Shore coupled with their ability to wage war all over Azeroth immediately after Legion ends pretty much negates the idea that being overrun would have somehow "killed the Horde." Or the Alliance, for that matter. If anything, the fact BfA is happening at all makes me think the world and both factions would be better off if none of the NPC's had made it off the Broken Shore alive. It's not like any of them went on after that to contributed positively to the war against the Legion.
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  #103  
Old 06-18-2018, 01:49 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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she is clear in its desire to rule the Forsaken and "walk the path of light"
http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/735221.jpg
http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/735222.jpg
Calia's goal is for the forsaken to accept light. therefore she could be the leader of a faction of the horde, since she is currently part of a neutral organization she is not part of the alliance

the missions of the followers we can see how the horde / forsaken still has control of parts of the kingdom of lordaeron and is counterattacking the alliance, in the same way that the alliance is counterattacking the horde in kalindor.
To think that the night elves and the forsaken are going to lose their land forever is something that I do not think will happen, I am sure that in the end they will come back.
http://www.wowhead.com/news=284410.5...eroth-spoilers
http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/736132.jpg
http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/736086.jpg
Did you read anything I posted

Because it looks like in lieu of doing so you're just repeating your original position but louder
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  #104  
Old 06-18-2018, 03:40 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Removing the ability of arguably the largest army fighting the Legion to replenish and transport its troops is a significantly bigger deal than just "annoying" Odyn. If she'd gotten what she wanted in Stormheim it could easily have cost us the entire war.

Not to mention in doing so she was helping Helya, whose Kvaldir were actively trying to kill Azeroth's champions and their allies as we were in the midst of fending off the Legion.

As for "saving the Horde from annihilation," frankly the pitiful showing both factions made at the Broken Shore coupled with their ability to wage war all over Azeroth immediately after Legion ends pretty much negates the idea that being overrun would have somehow "killed the Horde." Or the Alliance, for that matter. If anything, the fact BfA is happening at all makes me think the world and both factions would be better off if none of the NPC's had made it off the Broken Shore alive. It's not like any of them went on after that to contributed positively to the war against the Legion.
Depends on what order you do things in Stormheim. By the time I met with the Ashildr I had already dealt with Skovald and retrieved the Aegis.

In the mean time, you’re underestimating the value of the Horde’s entire upper echelon of leadership. All the Racial leaders dying at once? Yeah, that would have been the end of the Horde right there. Probably the Alliance too, since they wouldn’t have retreated and then would have been overrun by the Demons that would have had just taken down the Horde.
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  #105  
Old 06-18-2018, 03:45 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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On the should undead Calia be Alliance or Horde, there is a line in the book where Anduin tells Calia she's a hero to the Alliance for her help in organizing the Gathering, only for Calia to say she's not a member of the Alliance and doesn't want to be. Though that could easily have changed following Sylvanas killing her.

Also, given how every allied race seems to be tied to an existing race on the faction (for example, void elves are treated like a "subrace" of night elves in the pre-Blizzcon chrraces folder) so, with no other obvious candidates, I wonder if Lightforged Undead could be the allied race counterpart to worgen. Not in appearance, but thematically?
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  #106  
Old 06-18-2018, 03:55 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
On the should undead Calia be Alliance or Horde, there is a line in the book where Anduin tells Calia she's a hero to the Alliance for her help in organizing the Gathering, only for Calia to say she's not a member of the Alliance and doesn't want to be. Though that could easily have changed following Sylvanas killing her.
Ding ding ding. There are lines in the book where she says "Oh yeah Lordaeron is the Forsaken's now" or "I'm not a member of the Alliance" but all of that is before the book's climax where at the apex of her arc she specifically decides to press her claim and her relationship with Sylvanas becomes one of hostility. Combine that with what we know in the expansion and even if she doesn't consider herself Alliance, her actions tell a different story.

Cherrypicking lines from the middle of the book is deliberately ignoring the arc of her character throughout the entire story.
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  #107  
Old 06-18-2018, 06:00 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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I already said that Calia going Horde would happen if they force a way to turn her against the Alliance. Like if another strawman character kills innocent Undead who did totally nothing wrong ever.
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  #108  
Old 06-18-2018, 06:04 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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I already said that Calia going Horde would happen if they force a way to turn her against the Alliance. Like if another strawman character kills innocent Undead who did totally nothing wrong ever.
If they were going to do this why make her holy undead at all
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  #109  
Old 06-18-2018, 08:26 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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It's not like any of them went on after that to contributed positively to the war against the Legion.
Really? From all the griping I've read all throughout the expansion it seemed like the biggest complaint was that it was nothing but Alliance doing everything whereas the Horde was pretty much nowhere.
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  #110  
Old 06-18-2018, 09:32 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Really? From all the griping I've read all throughout the expansion it seemed like the biggest complaint was that it was nothing but Alliance doing everything whereas the Horde was pretty much nowhere.
That's because Blizzard has so damaged the Horde's playerbase with its schizophrenic faction writing that they think it's "Alliance content" when an expansion is about protecting the world from hostile invaders instead of wrongfully butchering indigenous peoples to take their stuff.

Also it's because plenty of WoW players when observing the game world tend to devolve into "fantasy racism," seeing a character's race and instantly assigning faction affiliation (and therefore biased faction "ownership" of all associated materials) to them before they even say or do anything, and subsequently regardless of what they actually do. So many Horde players see purple elves in Suramar and think "OMG Alliance content!" all while demanding that said purple elves join the Horde, then continue calling it all "Alliance content" even after said purple elves actually join the Horde.

What, exactly, did Horde players want to be doing instead? Killing more quillboars? Killing a bunch of other orcs again?

It was inevitable that by making the Alliance and Horde minimally involved spectators to the culmination of their own origin stories (i.e. the final battle against the Burning Legion whose machinations and invasions ultimately created both factions and shaped the history of every major race within them), it would feel like none of the expansion was "theirs." Some Horde players see a bunch of elves and draenei and make the fallacious assumption that the Alliance is somehow more involved than the Horde. That their faction's impersonal involvement was unique to them. It wasn't. Neither faction was important to Legion, and frankly 99% of the characters who should have been involved from throughout the building story of the Legion's approach over the years simply weren't around.

A problem that was further compounded when the myriad new characters who were introduced during the expansion to be involved in their stead simply up and vanished from the story when we went off to Argus where a bunch of Lightforged and Broken nobodies replaced them.

Last edited by ARM3481; 06-19-2018 at 01:16 AM..
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  #111  
Old 06-19-2018, 05:23 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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That's because Blizzard has so damaged the Horde's playerbase with its schizophrenic faction writing that they think it's "Alliance content" when an expansion is about protecting the world from hostile invaders instead of wrongfully butchering indigenous peoples to take their stuff.

Also it's because plenty of WoW players when observing the game world tend to devolve into "fantasy racism," seeing a character's race and instantly assigning faction affiliation (and therefore biased faction "ownership" of all associated materials) to them before they even say or do anything, and subsequently regardless of what they actually do. So many Horde players see purple elves in Suramar and think "OMG Alliance content!" all while demanding that said purple elves join the Horde, then continue calling it all "Alliance content" even after said purple elves actually join the Horde.

What, exactly, did Horde players want to be doing instead? Killing more quillboars? Killing a bunch of other orcs again?

It was inevitable that by making the Alliance and Horde minimally involved spectators to the culmination of their own origin stories (i.e. the final battle against the Burning Legion whose machinations and invasions ultimately created both factions and shaped the history of every major race within them), it would feel like none of the expansion was "theirs." Some Horde players see a bunch of elves and draenei and make the fallacious assumption that the Alliance is somehow more involved than the Horde. That their faction's impersonal involvement was unique to them. It wasn't. Neither faction was important to Legion, and frankly 99% of the characters who should have been involved from throughout the building story of the Legion's approach over the years simply weren't around.

A problem that was further compounded when the myriad new characters who were introduced during the expansion to be involved in their stead simply up and vanished from the story when we went off to Argus where a bunch of Lightforged and Broken nobodies replaced them.
I think it was more that, while acting in a neutral capacity, alliance aligned characters like Velen, Tyrande, Malfurion, Anduin, Genn and Maiev got a lot of spotligth whereas the only Horde character to do anything major post Broken Shore were Sylvanas and to a much lesser extent, Liadrin.
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  #112  
Old 06-19-2018, 11:21 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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I think it was more that, while acting in a neutral capacity, alliance aligned characters like Velen, Tyrande, Malfurion, Anduin, Genn and Maiev got a lot of spotligth whereas the only Horde character to do anything major post Broken Shore were Sylvanas and to a much lesser extent, Liadrin.
It wouldn't have been a problem if they showed Horde characters doing something. Anything. They should have had characters like Lor'themar, Baine (of whom should do something for the world, instead of just backstabbing his own people), Saurfang, and so on, fighting against the Legion and being on the front lines. Instead, we got the evil shenanigans of Sylvanas, and Liadrin making besties with Thalyssra.
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  #113  
Old 06-19-2018, 02:23 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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It's because the Horde as a faction is so thematically bankrupt that anything but fighting Quilboar in the desert or something along those lines doesn't feel "Horde."
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  #114  
Old 06-19-2018, 04:49 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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It's because the Horde as a faction is so thematically bankrupt that anything but fighting Quilboar in the desert or something along those lines doesn't feel "Horde."
We get it, you don't like Horde, and don't want them to have anything but the most primitive of objects, barbaric culture, or to even exist.
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  #115  
Old 06-19-2018, 05:58 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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We get it, you don't like Horde, and don't want them to have anything but the most primitive of objects, barbaric culture, or to even exist.
Considering those things are all that distinguish them from the Alliance in the absence of them being douchebags, yes the Horde shouldn't exist. There is no narrative reason for it to exist and hasn't been for a long time.
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  #116  
Old 06-20-2018, 02:06 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Instead, we got the evil shenanigans of Sylvanas
What evil shenanigans?
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  #117  
Old 06-20-2018, 06:38 AM
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What evil shenanigans?
You know, that thing in Stormheim where she was trying to enslave Helya(I think? Blizzard has never explained it very well).
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  #118  
Old 06-20-2018, 09:10 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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The problem with the Horde is that the devs yell at us to see them as brutal death metal conquerers and also noble savages/victims kept down by the Alliance/world. It can't even pick whether being conquerers is a "bad" way to be or not.
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  #119  
Old 06-20-2018, 09:44 AM
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The problem with the Horde is that the devs yell at us to see them as brutal death metal conquerers and also noble savages/victims kept down by the Alliance/world. It can't even pick whether being conquerers is a "bad" way to be or not.
This is what I've been saying for years. Blizzard wants two incompatible mindsets in the horde and the result is schizophrenic. They want to have it both ways and it simply doesn't work.
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  #120  
Old 06-20-2018, 01:23 PM
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You know, that thing in Stormheim where she was trying to enslave Helya(I think? Blizzard has never explained it very well).
Eyir.

Helya is the evil one.
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  #121  
Old 06-20-2018, 01:49 PM
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Eyir.

Helya is the evil one.
Duh! Thanks! I was afraid I'd mixed something up.

You know, the only way this book could be worse is if Sylvanas confronted Baine about corresponding with the alliance, and he begs on his knees for mercy so she commands him to literally lick her boots. After it's done and she leaves, Baine starts crying and writes another letter to Anduin saying he can't bear to be apart from him.
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  #122  
Old 07-04-2018, 02:26 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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I'm on the cusp of finishing the book myself and my only real objection is that for the whole book the relationship between the Alliance and the Forsaken is treated as one where the Alliance are the unreasonable ones for being mad at the Forsaken, and that it's the Alliance that needs to prove that they have benign intentions to the Forsaken and not the other way around.

In the case of the Forsaken I'm starting to think that a whole bunch of them are genuinely unaware of all the ass-fuckery that Sylvanas has been up to in Gilneas and Hillsbrad. Some of them are portrayed so sympathetically that that's the only way that I can square their personalities with their support of Sylvanas and the Horde.

Forsaken society in this is portrayed largely as a totalitarian nightmare with strict information control in all facets of life, and I found myself mad at Sylvanas not just for everything she's done to the Alliance but also for her repulsive emotional abuse of any Forsaken who might disagree with her philosophically, which is a position I never thought I would find myself in. We see this continue in the expansion where we see newly raised Forsaken subjected to similar emotional abuse with the intent of fostering a sense of Stockholm Syndrome.

Essentially, the Forsaken cannot survive as a cohesive political entity in the wake of this novel now that a clear dividing line has been drawn in Forsaken society and that it's been confirmed that yes, a whole bunch of them really are just normal people who would defect if they realized that it was an option. Any of those kinds of Forsaken who remain in the Horde are only doing so at this point out of ignorance or the aforementioned brainwashing and information control, as their personalities are now jarringly at odds with the actions of the Forsaken and the Horde at large.

It almost comes off as the Alliance needing to depose Sylvanas/reclaim Lordaeron not just for the sake of humanity but also for the purposes of liberation.
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  #123  
Old 07-04-2018, 06:17 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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While you are right about Sylvanas (not that it is a revolutionary standpoint, I was down for getting rid of her since her short story) you could end up surprised how things go after she is deposed. Many if not most Forsaken could choose to stay within the Horde of their own volition given how the Horde saved their skin a few times when they needed it the most while their human kin left them to rot or were outright hostile.

In the end it is likely that the Alliance will get a race of lightforged undead under Calia while the bulk of them remain Horde.

PS. Seems truth was closer to humans with skin conditions than shadow aliens all along

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  #124  
Old 07-04-2018, 06:30 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Coincidentally, in Traveler, after serving Sylvanas for years, you can leave as long as you respectfully ask.
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  #125  
Old 07-04-2018, 01:05 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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PS. Seems truth was closer to humans with skin conditions than shadow aliens all along
I base my views on the evidence, and this is the first concrete evidence of "humans with skin conditions" we've gotten so far, although it's still really hard to square with the Forsaken's actions as a whole unless you assume ignorance of the details of almost everything on the part of Forsaken civilians, which is sort of a hard sell considering how many shitty things the Forsaken do right out in the open in the Undercity.

Another criticism I'd have of the book I guess is also that the impact or importance of undeath itself is muddied even further. It essentially says that the impact that undeath has on a person "varies" from nothing to everything, which may as well be saying it has no impact at all.

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Many if not most Forsaken could choose to stay within the Horde of their own volition given how the Horde saved their skin a few times when they needed it the most while their human kin left them to rot or were outright hostile.
Here's the thing though; do they believe that on the basis of factual reality or do they believe that based on Sylvanas' totalitarian information control? The King of Stormwind and the Queen of Lordaeron have essentially welcomed them with open arms at this point, and most Forsaken may be unaware of just how horrible Sylvanas has been to humanity.

If the information barrier evaporated, and they were able to see the truth, then if they are "humans with skin conditions" the vast majority of them would almost certainly defect. That's what scared Sylvanas to the point that she carried out a massacre on her own people at the end of this book. In her own words, she can't allow them to hope, to know the truth, because that spells the end of her rule.
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"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies� strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night� live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II
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You are right Fojar.
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