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  #76  
Old 09-16-2016, 07:48 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Originally Posted by Yorenec View Post
I have no problem with that and on both accounts I actually agree with Tyrande's reasoning. Garrosh needed to be brought to justice and the humans had been encroaching on her land.

My problem is the way she gets hailed as this great diplomat when she almost never considers taking the diplomatic route first.
Er... does she?

I think in tFT she comes across as a fairly effective diplomat. But then one of the people she's trying to be diplomatic with stabs her in the back, so... I guess maybe not.

I mean I think of her more as an effective commander and warrior than as a really successful diplomat.
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  #77  
Old 09-16-2016, 08:21 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Actually, I would love to expand Azshara's life, to see how did she turn from a beloved queen to a mad bitch.
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  #78  
Old 09-16-2016, 09:02 PM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Actually, I would love to expand Azshara's life, to see how did she turn from a beloved queen to a mad bitch.
Seen this angle brought up a couple times, but to me it seems like a moot point in the sense that a character with that much power and all the details of her story that far in the past could perfectly well have been both of those things at the same time. It's not like that isn't a thing in real life too.

Sure, there was a definitive point where her people turned against her and the war of the ancients happened, but it doesn't take much open-minded thought free of assumptions to realize that she didn't have to actually do diddly squat for that to happen, since whatever her people learned about her to change their minds could already have been going on in some private circle the whole time she was queen.
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  #79  
Old 09-16-2016, 09:05 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Originally Posted by Icefrost View Post
Seen this angle brought up a couple times, but to me it seems like a moot point in the sense that a character with that much power and all the details of her story that far in the past could perfectly well have been both of those things at the same time. It's not like that isn't a thing in real life too.
Yes, but I'd rather to see her change by the power's corruption, not physically but mentally, this had happened a lot in real life.
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Old 09-18-2016, 08:06 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Thought she was all right in wc3, total bitch in legion after her husband fucks up.
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  #81  
Old 09-18-2016, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Thought she was all right in wc3, total bitch in legion after her husband fucks up.
As someone not playing the game and not giving a damn about getting spoiled, can I ask for some context to this? Purely out of curiosity.
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  #82  
Old 09-18-2016, 09:03 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Yes, but I'd rather to see her change by the power's corruption, not physically but mentally, this had happened a lot in real life.
I dont think she was ever good. My canon is that she is kinda like Sylvanas in the sense that she ushered her people's golden era for selfish reasons (in her case, as a massive ego stroke. When that wasnt enough she turned to the Well.
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  #83  
Old 09-18-2016, 09:13 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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I dont think she was ever good. My canon is that she is kinda like Sylvanas in the sense that she ushered her people's golden era for selfish reasons (in her case, as a massive ego stroke. When that wasnt enough she turned to the Well.
It always struck me as odd that the Nelves had their big golden age, and then.... well 10,000 years of complete and total stagnation.

Shouldn't Tyrande be considered one of the worst leaders in their peoples history? She didn't lead them during the WotA. She led them through the ten thousand years of waiting and complete absense of any sort of advancement, not even bothering to find the remaining highborne which they knew could likely be a threat, or even bothering to help their allies the tauren.

You might say it was peace, but it left them completely unprepared for any sort of fight, or threat as they needed both the Druids and the Dragons for the bug war, and the second Orcs set foot in their land the sentinels failed to both identify the threat before it became one, and failed to neutralize it.

Hell, they didn't even deal with the Satyr threat. Which was a very clear and present danger.
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  #84  
Old 09-18-2016, 09:54 PM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
It always struck me as odd that the Nelves had their big golden age, and then.... well 10,000 years of complete and total stagnation.

Shouldn't Tyrande be considered one of the worst leaders in their peoples history? She didn't lead them during the WotA. She led them through the ten thousand years of waiting and complete absense of any sort of advancement, not even bothering to find the remaining highborne which they knew could likely be a threat, or even bothering to help their allies the tauren.

You might say it was peace, but it left them completely unprepared for any sort of fight, or threat as they needed both the Druids and the Dragons for the bug war...
Isn't that downplaying the amount of building-up-from-scratch that must've resulted from the event that shattered the entire world? You make it sound like everyone who survived somehow already had homes to go to and sit on their hands.
Also, one of the main lessons to take away from the sundering was basically that hedonism and generally flying off the handle with your aspirations = bad.
After that, you're not going to see of lot of people making maximum efficiency construction and expansion their lives' purpose after everyone's got one roof over their heads and one tree in their backyard, so to speak.

As for the leader of the reformed and rebuilding civilization, it makes sense she'd be one of the most cautious of the lot, what with all that responsibility on her shoulders. After the first couple hundred or even thousand years of being a, no risks - my people's safety first - extreme prejudice to outsiders - leader with initially good reason for being that way, you're going to be too into it to change for the other eight, for psychological reasons alone, not to mention the 'your people praise you no matter what you'd do' angle offered by an intelligent poster earlier.

You can technically call her out for sitting around all you want, but it actually makes more sense than you'd think if you stop treating the situation as industrious shortsighted humans led by ambitious sociopaths over howevermany generations and remind yourself who you're actually talking about.

And then there is, of course, the assumption that us the audience not knowing about something equals nothing was going on for 10,000 years. I remember a time when the aforementioned bug war was not a thing, and then later it suddenly was one day when it was relevant background for other stuff they'd just come up with.
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  #85  
Old 09-18-2016, 10:00 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
It always struck me as odd that the Nelves had their big golden age, and then.... well 10,000 years of complete and total stagnation.

Shouldn't Tyrande be considered one of the worst leaders in their peoples history? She didn't lead them during the WotA. She led them through the ten thousand years of waiting and complete absense of any sort of advancement, not even bothering to find the remaining highborne which they knew could likely be a threat, or even bothering to help their allies the tauren.

You might say it was peace, but it left them completely unprepared for any sort of fight, or threat as they needed both the Druids and the Dragons for the bug war, and the second Orcs set foot in their land the sentinels failed to both identify the threat before it became one, and failed to neutralize it.

Hell, they didn't even deal with the Satyr threat. Which was a very clear and present danger.
Yeah, the sentinels skill is kind of an informed ability at this point.
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  #86  
Old 09-18-2016, 10:22 PM
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The simple truth is the writers at the time didn't realize just how damn long 10,000 years is on a general timeline.
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  #87  
Old 09-18-2016, 10:49 PM
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The simple truth is the writers at the time didn't realize just how damn long 10,000 years is on a general timeline.
Agreed, but that doesn't change the impact it had on the story.

My feeling is, only way it can work lorewise is if the Nelfs had gained a false sense of security from battling the occasional incursion of centaur and harpies and quillboar that wanted the fertile northern forests.

Old WC3 lore indicates the nelfs were so far beyond the southern kalimdor races before the Legion invasion they were all regarded as shadowy demigods.

Sad they retconned Maiev's statement that the nelfs had fucking -ended- species that fucked with them before.
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  #88  
Old 09-19-2016, 01:36 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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People here are using the term "stagnate" without looking at context tbh.

First, all or most races after reaching certain point have stayed the same for X hundred/thousand of years. Humans/elves reached "medieval europe"/"soft highborne" points hundreds or thousands of years before WoW events and basically stayed there. The night elven approach didnt require cities proper but they're on their own way just as advanced.

You also keep bringing up "why didnt she build cities" and "why didnt she expand" but fail to understand that irl (and probably in WCverse as well) things like happen based on needs and (like in the Navi case) Elune, Nature and their previous knowledgement provided all the night elven society required. Correct me if im wrong but i dont think we have seen illiterate night elves, miserably poor night elves nor starving night elves so in civil matters her rulership must have been good. Regarding the land "issue" we dont even know if the night elves have/had the numbers to hold more land than what they own.

When world dynamics changed, Tyrande also succesfully adapted and acted accordingly. Ultimately you're taking too literally the words of a woman who literally spent 10K years in a bubble and ignoring the fact that Tyrande has managed to keep an overall A+ aproval rate during 10k years as well
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  #89  
Old 09-19-2016, 02:19 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
People here are using the term "stagnate" without looking at context tbh.

First, all or most races after reaching certain point have stayed the same for X hundred/thousand of years. Humans/elves reached "medieval europe"/"soft highborne" points hundreds or thousands of years before WoW events and basically stayed there. The night elven approach didnt require cities proper but they're on their own way just as advanced.

You also keep bringing up "why didnt she build cities" and "why didnt she expand" but fail to understand that irl (and probably in WCverse as well) things like happen based on needs and (like in the Navi case) Elune, Nature and their previous knowledgement provided all the night elven society required. Correct me if im wrong but i dont think we have seen illiterate night elves, miserably poor night elves nor starving night elves so in civil matters her rulership must have been good. Regarding the land "issue" we dont even know if the night elves have/had the numbers to hold more land than what they own.

When world dynamics changed, Tyrande also succesfully adapted and acted accordingly. Ultimately you're taking too literally the words of a woman who literally spent 10K years in a bubble and ignoring the fact that Tyrande has managed to keep an overall A+ aproval rate during 10k years as well
Indeed, one should consider that several of humanity's (and really, any living species') historical necessities were already being met for the night elves. Their balanced relationship with Nature would keep them well fed, their immortality made disease a non-issue, and their comparatively low birthrate alongside indefinite longevity mitigated the need for dense urban development to house rapid population growth. Moreover the lack of neighboring enemy states and cordial relationship with most of their lands' denizens would lessen the constant need for consolidated population centers as a means of communal defense.

Something else to remember is that Elisande's observations of her three "cousin" races are likely coming from a place of presumed automatic Highborne/Nightborne superiority and a dismissal or even ignorance of the effed up reasons that the Highborne fell apart to begin with. She'd reflexively assume that any elves living in a way different from the Nightborne are abhorrent and inferior as a matter of course, because from her standpoint the "Highborne way" of living never stopped working.

In fact, it's never even said that Elisande and her followers ever stopped being fiercely loyal to Azshara. They only actually turned on the Legion, so to this day they might still believe that their queen and the Highborne of zin-Azshari were hapless victims of the Legion's deception and never really did anything wrong. Meaning the whole thing where magic abuse led to corruption, madness, and complicity in the demons' invasion wouldn't register as problematic to the Nightborne in light of their own abuses.

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  #90  
Old 09-19-2016, 06:21 AM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by Icefrost View Post
Isn't that downplaying the amount of building-up-from-scratch that must've resulted from the event that shattered the entire world? You make it sound like everyone who survived somehow already had homes to go to and sit on their hands.
Also, one of the main lessons to take away from the sundering was basically that hedonism and generally flying off the handle with your aspirations = bad.
After that, you're not going to see of lot of people making maximum efficiency construction and expansion their lives' purpose after everyone's got one roof over their heads and one tree in their backyard, so to speak.

As for the leader of the reformed and rebuilding civilization, it makes sense she'd be one of the most cautious of the lot, what with all that responsibility on her shoulders. After the first couple hundred or even thousand years of being a, no risks - my people's safety first - extreme prejudice to outsiders - leader with initially good reason for being that way, you're going to be too into it to change for the other eight, for psychological reasons alone, not to mention the 'your people praise you no matter what you'd do' angle offered by an intelligent poster earlier.

You can technically call her out for sitting around all you want, but it actually makes more sense than you'd think if you stop treating the situation as industrious shortsighted humans led by ambitious sociopaths over howevermany generations and remind yourself who you're actually talking about.

And then there is, of course, the assumption that us the audience not knowing about something equals nothing was going on for 10,000 years. I remember a time when the aforementioned bug war was not a thing, and then later it suddenly was one day when it was relevant background for other stuff they'd just come up with.
I'm not exactly saying they needed technological advancement, or anything of that nature. And they had no reason to have any sort of prejudice to outsiders. Infact its just the opposite as the wota showed that the night elves their own people are the danger while the outside races which came and aided them are people they could trust.

They knew the Legion would come, they knew there were major demonic threats in their own homeland, they knew that races like the tauren and earthen should be trusted and that they should likely get some connections with etc... yet they didnt pursue any of this. They just sat around twiddling their thumbs.

Night Elves are an ancient race. And what do they have to show for it? The human kindom which a fraction of their age is more advanced in every way aside from the "one with nature" thing which, judging from such things as the barrens incident or Vordrassil debacle, they're not that good at that either when it comes down to it. They are the alliances weakest asset, border-lining on liability.
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  #91  
Old 09-19-2016, 06:30 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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As someone not playing the game and not giving a damn about getting spoiled, can I ask for some context to this? Purely out of curiosity.
Malfurion gets himself captured chasing after Xavius. Him chasing after Xavius also led to Ysera getting corrupted by the nightmare. Tyrande shows up with a bitchy attitude like the player is somehow at fault.

Granted I might just be butthurt and reading too much into it. But when she showed up demanding answers like she was in charge I couldn't help but think "bitch please I have more important things to worry about." Otherwise she's not too bad.
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  #92  
Old 09-19-2016, 06:41 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Help the tauren with what? Do you realize that Centaurs were going to wipe out the Bloodhoofs, not the entirety of Tauren race right? They also spent 3K years infighting so by the time they got to a position to "help" the Tauren their culture must have been pretty damn set.

2 fuckups in 10k years 'OMG THE NIGHT ELFS ARE WORTHLESSSSS!!!!!!!". And more advanced in everyway? How? Because the only thing i can imagine are the gunships and those are gnomish tech.
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  #93  
Old 09-19-2016, 07:37 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
I'm not exactly saying they needed technological advancement, or anything of that nature. And they had no reason to have any sort of prejudice to outsiders. Infact its just the opposite as the wota showed that the night elves their own people are the danger while the outside races which came and aided them are people they could trust.
By that reasoning, the elves on the other hand had no reason to resign themselves to outside judgment since they had pretty much pinned the whole thing on reckless magic and a queen gone bad and all that. After taking action that some would call too harsh to prevent a repeat disaster, you would still have them grovel at everyone else's feet for apologies just to be satisfied that they were trying to be good neighbors.

Quote:
They knew the Legion would come, they knew there were major demonic threats in their own homeland, they knew that races like the tauren and earthen should be trusted and that they should likely get some connections with etc... yet they didnt pursue any of this. They just sat around twiddling their thumbs.
If you had actually repeated my "sat on their hands" as opposed to using "twiddling their thumbs" to close out this baseless assumption that was already addressed, would've laughed out loud.

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Night Elves are an ancient race. And what do they have to show for it? The human kindom which a fraction of their age is more advanced in every way
You were already refuted here by someone other than me. If you think there's something still here, then let's hear it.
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