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  #151  
Old 05-26-2017, 11:54 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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But in that attempt at viral marketing, Project Blackstone, Dr. Rothfuss (I believe) said that Terran encryption is backwards and easy to crack. Plus to even access the adjutant they had to hack into it so that alone puts questions about the validity of things stored on it. I remain by the idea that audio can be easily spoofed and that Mengsk's propaganda machine could have easily discredited it. But anyhow that is a minor thing lets not get stuck on that.

What do you guys think about the point that the main issue with SC2 villains is that we never played from their perspective like in previous RTS games?
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  #152  
Old 05-26-2017, 01:20 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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But in that attempt at viral marketing, Project Blackstone, Dr. Rothfuss (I believe) said that Terran encryption is backwards and easy to crack. Plus to even access the adjutant they had to hack into it so that alone puts questions about the validity of things stored on it. I remain by the idea that audio can be easily spoofed and that Mengsk's propaganda machine could have easily discredited it. But anyhow that is a minor thing lets not get stuck on that.
The adjudant ain't Terran-tech though. Judging from its presence on the Alexander and Umoja, It's probably UPL technology.

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What do you guys think about the point that the main issue with SC2 villains is that we never played from their perspective like in previous RTS games?
Hrm, it would have helped for sure, but I'm not sure it's necessary. During Warcraft III, we never really play from the perspective of the Legion. Sure, we played the scourge, and the scourge was kinda semi-doing their bidding, but Raynor was also kinda semi-doing the bidding of Amon.

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I have not a doubt that making SC2 try so hard to be a soap opera was key in its disappointment. Blizzard was never really good at character driven stories as opposed to making interesting settings for you to explore.
Honestly, I don't think the soap-y aspect of Starcraft II is actually that bad. The primary difference between WoW and Starcraft II's usage of characters actually fits with how the game is structured. The story's focus characters are also the game's main characters, and you spend a ton of time interacting with other characters in an environment that's specifically been set up for that purpose.[1]

I actually rather like Kerrigan's character arc in Heart of the Swarm. I like Raynor's interactions with his rebel buddies (even if Tychus is kinda redundant to the story of WoL).

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The point about villlains is important here. Using WoW, I would say that a key problem in its Lore is how it transformed into what can be called the antics of a bunch of dysfunctional superheroes. Despite this, the faction leaders aren't well done enough as characters to have so much attention dumped on them. Can you tell me that Anduin has the pull of Arthas?
I don't think the dysfunctional superheroes idea applies nearly as much to starcraft II as to WoW.
Firstly, the power disparity between main characters and the rest of the universe is not even close to being as close to and inexplicable as it is in WoW. Raynor can't single-handedly wipe out a dozen marines without breaking a sweat story-wise, not like Garrosh (who has spent half his life sick in bed, grew up malnourished, has no special training, no extensive practical experience, and goes into battle near-naked) being able to plow through small armies of experienced veterans by mere virtue of him being a main character and them being nameless NPCs
Secondly, they're not the ones winning the war. In WoL and LotV, the main characters sit mostly on their ships. You actually get to use them on the battlefield only fairly rarely. Instead, wars are won through the blood, sweat and sacrifice of the masses, something which the story repeatedly acknowledges. [2]

I can also tell you that I enjoyed Abathur, Gabriel Tosh and Alarak a lot more than Amon.



[1] Though the main Leviathan screen utterly shatters my suspension of disbelief every single time I see it. Seriously, that's terrible.
[2] Except in that one stupid cinematic with Raynor on Valerian's ship. That has to be the lowpoint in Starcraft II's storytelling for me.
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  #153  
Old 05-27-2017, 11:27 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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The gate during Mission VI is pretty heavily guarded, so the zerg wouldn't just be able to run in and take over the gate. Plenty of time to shut it down.
But I'm fairly certain in the Protoss campaign they said they're shutting it down. Plus it's just an unnecessary risk if they lose it. It wasn't particularly secure.

And the sequence of events is just messy.

And yeah, SC2 has lame villains. The fact that we never see their perspective, and the fact that the game just cycles mindlessly between generic despicable Tal'darim, generic despicable Dominion forces/Moebius Foundation, generic despicable rogue Zerg broods/feral zerg/zerg swarm.

Rather than in previous games where there was a lot of development for who you were fighting and why and what they specifically wanted. The colour palette was used to signify a faction, whereas in SC2 everything's just kind of the same colour and you have good guys and bad guys.

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Honestly, I don't think the soap-y aspect of Starcraft II is actually that bad. The primary difference between WoW and Starcraft II's usage of characters actually fits with how the game is structured. The story's focus characters are also the game's main characters, and you spend a ton of time interacting with other characters in an environment that's specifically been set up for that purpose.[1]

I actually rather like Kerrigan's character arc in Heart of the Swarm. I like Raynor's interactions with his rebel buddies (even if Tychus is kinda redundant to the story of WoL).
I dunno how, but I find WoL and HotS both incredibly straight-forward and predictable, and they pander to their audience. While also being massively inconsistent and chaotic and random.
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  #154  
Old 05-27-2017, 04:44 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline
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I dunno how, but I find WoL and HotS both incredibly straight-forward and predictable, and they pander to their audience. While also being massively inconsistent and chaotic and random.
you do? wow, we're shocked.
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  #155  
Old 05-27-2017, 06:38 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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The colour palette was used to signify a faction, whereas in SC2 everything's just kind of the same colour and you have good guys and bad guys.
To be fair, even in the original Starcraft, the use of colours as factions was pretty underwhelming. Sure, the manual gave you a nice listing of the faction names and which colours belonged to them, but that ends up being really poorly integrated into the actual campaign gameplay.
For the Terrans, only half the colours appear in the actual game, with Nova Squadron, the Umojans and Kel-Moria all missing.
For the Protoss, the color distinctions really don't matter, because for some bizarre reason, they chose to use colours to represent an internal distinction that no longer exists among the protoss.
For the zerg, there is the issue that the same colours get reused even when it doesn't make sense. Not only does Zasz's brood keep appearing after his death, it keeps appearing with new cerebrates.

Warcraft III doesn't do much with it either now that I think about it. Kul Tiras has blue units, the scourge don't have distinctins, the night elves distinctions are never explained, and the orcs don't really seem to use the colour system at all.

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But I'm fairly certain in the Protoss campaign they said they're shutting it down.
Raynor says they're going to try and destroy it, yes. However, Zeratul says even earlier that it's Aiur's 'last functioning warp gate'.

Either statement must already be a lie. So, let's look at which is more likely. Let's assume that there are two gates. The first gate must not have always connected to Shakuras. That means that the warp gates can switch destinations quite easily. Either you could secure the gate by just switching addresses or turning it off, in which case there's no need to blow up the original gate, or even a gate connected to a different location can't considered secure, in which case the 'other' gate shouldn't be left intact either. If the former, they would still have the original gate. If the latter, they wouldn't have a second gate.

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I dunno how, but I find WoL and HotS both incredibly straight-forward and predictable, and they pander to their audience. While also being massively inconsistent and chaotic and random.
Oh hell yeah, they're predictable. Just because I know what all the pit stops are does not mean that the journey is meaningless though.

I'd agree that WoL is "massively inconsistent and chaotic and random". HotS seems way more sanely structured in its plot though.
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  #156  
Old 05-29-2017, 01:23 PM
CoDimus the Staunch CoDimus the Staunch is offline

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Can I just say, as someone who got into SC2's Multiplayer just three months ago, I do not understand why people enjoy cheesy plays. I see people praise such plays all the time, but they just make me salty af. It's especially bad when I play PVP, as it seems that whenever a Protoss player sees another, their reaction is to either cannon rush the fuck out of them, or settle down for long macro games involving both sides going Skytoss and the one with better macro winning. The latter is still quite fun, but I do not enjoy the former. It's not that bad when it's less common, but I find that PVP more often than not will have one player attempting to cheese. Hell, if it was rarer, I would actually enjoy the games more, because it would be innovative and unconventional. The worst part is when you get cheesed in two or three games in a row, as even winning in that situation isnt much fun(the other player is quite likely to just surrender when their tactics fail).
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  #157  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:03 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
To be fair, even in the original Starcraft, the use of colours as factions was pretty underwhelming. Sure, the manual gave you a nice listing of the faction names and which colours belonged to them, but that ends up being really poorly integrated into the actual campaign gameplay.
What I meant was. UED in Brood War are white (or brown), Dominion are red. Khalai survivors are brown/yellow, Dark Templar are blue, Raynor's crew is blue, Kerrigan's swarm is purple, Overmind's swarm is orange. Even basic distinctions like that are missing from SC2, I guess past WoL at least.

Good guys are generally blue, bad guys are generally red. Even when it doesn't really fit.

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For the zerg, there is the issue that the same colours get reused even when it doesn't make sense. Not only does Zasz's brood keep appearing after his death, it keeps appearing with new cerebrates.
To be fair, that was in Brood War when they'd used up all the colours anyway, and some of the colours just looked really bad. (Yellow Zerg look terrible)

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Warcraft III doesn't do much with it either now that I think about it. Kul Tiras has blue units, the scourge don't have distinctins, the night elves distinctions are never explained, and the orcs don't really seem to use the colour system at all.
WarCraft 3 had more factions so the colours could represent more things I guess.

Like the colours are contextual too, they mean different thigns in different contexts. That is, sometimes green Undead represent Kel'thuzad, sometimes Green Undead represent Detheroc or the Burning Legion in general. And just the sheer number of different factions in WarCraft 3 with hugely distinct goals and objectives is so much more interesting to me.

But then Blue Undead is always Sylvanas for example.

They don't do anything even remotely like that in SC2. Even though they introduced decals to distinguish these factions even further.

It took them until Legacy to really do ANYTHING with the Tal'darim other than as placeholders for evil Protoss, and whatever they needed that evil protoss group to be opposed to on the mission in question. There isn't even a strong sense of where the Tal'darim were or where they came from.

And yet they're STILL the most interesting thing about SC2 (mainly Legacy of the Void).

My point isn't really about colours, my point is more that WC3 in particular had a variety of factions with viewpoints and objectives and goals and over the course of it's long story you'd see the interactions between these varying factions and objectives. (Ner'zhul vs. the Burning Legion for example, which becomes the primary conflict of the expansion)

But in SC2 you really have good guys (Raynor, Artanis), not so good guys (the Zerg Swarm) and evil (Amon & his followers).

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Raynor says they're going to try and destroy it, yes. However, Zeratul says even earlier that it's Aiur's 'last functioning warp gate'.
I think Raynor said 'we'll shut down the gate on this end'. Then Artanis warns them that they won't be able to send them any reinforcements. I BELIEVE. It's been a long time since I've played it.

I double checked the cinematic. Yeah Raynor says that, and Artanis tells them they'll be hopelessly outnumbered and they'll send all the troops they can spare. Like the motivations make so much more sense if Raynor and Fenix were desperate for any help they could get.

Like, they could just turn the gate off, or set it for a different destination so that none of the Zerg go to Shakuras and make the Protoss there's lives even more hellish.

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I'd agree that WoL is "massively inconsistent and chaotic and random". HotS seems way more sanely structured in its plot though.
HotS has similar issues but the plot has a better conceptualization of what it is and what it wants to be.

Wings of Liberty was blatantly completely changed in mid-development. Metzen said as much in an interview. The main character's whole arc was changed from one thing, to... not existing. Raynor doesn't really have an arc in Wings of Liberty. (Good guy who's down on his luck succeeds and is no longer as down on his luck -- basically.)

Kerrigan conversely has a very confusing, inconsistent arc, but there's a much more clear singular goal that they're at least going for. Though I'm not sure they wind up ultimately realizing it.

Legacy of the Void is even better in this regard, but even more straight-forward. Artanis is pretty flat, but at least has consistent goals, objectives and methods.

I think building these campaigns around a single character and their posse was a humongous mistake, probably the single biggest one they made. But there it is.

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you do? wow, we're shocked.
Maybe you could for once contribute something meaningful to the discussion instead of constantly 'calling me out' because you disagree with me and taking everything I say so personally for whatever reason.

Maybe? No? Okay then.

Moving on, another point I think is interesting and I've been watching clips of people talking about this is how the cinematic aspects of the story are directly integrated into the gameplay. I've always kind of thought about this myself.

That StarCraft 2 has kind of an arcade feel. The story takes place inbetween the missions and gameplay, and then the gameplay itself is just an uninterrupted special arcade-type game that you might find on the SC2 arcade.

Like, comparing SC:BW's True Colours to WC3's the Culling to SC2's Media Blitz.

True Colours is probably one of the first Blizzard missions that integrates a plot and gameplay element on top of one another. The enemy is resting because of plot, meaning they won't fight back in the gameplay. As it is, you're going to perform a sneak attack and you're going to use units that are good at sneak attacking to attack them. Almost a perfect integration of gameplay and plot.

The Culling is similar. The plot is that you're racing Mal'ganis to kill innocent NPC civilians who can't fight back. And that's literally the gameplay too. I suppose symbolically the introduction of the knight is intended to make a two-fold statement. The knights are symbols of chivalry and heroism, just as Arthas takes his first steps towards throwing those aspects of himself away in order to get the job done. From a gameplay perspective, they're the fastest human unit in their roster. So they can move quickly from house to house, killing peasants. They also have a lot of health so they don't get worn down quickly.

In StarCraft 2's case Media Blitz is probably the game's BEST example of doing something in the old style. Facing off against Mengsk is one of Raynor's express goals and it is established very early on that he'd like to bring him down. There's also something of a cause-effect plan here. You steal the Odin, then you use it to attack Korhal. There's a gameplay element that is integrated FULLY and TOTALLY into the storyline. You use gameplay to steal something and then in the next mission you actually use it to fight the enemy you've been battling, who is someone that Raynor has a personal connection to.

I guess you could argue capturing the pieces of the Artifact then using it in the finale is a similar, but I don't feel that's as thematically connected. It's also a particularly simplistic connection. Especially since you've hardly been racing Kerrigan for the artifact pieces, you've mostly been fighting nameless, faceless evil Protoss. Who are just sort of generic fanatics that Raynor has no relationship toward or with.

It'd be like if a third of the Undead campaign in WC3 was dedicated to fighting the Blackrock Clan to get pages of the Book of Medivh and if the Undead campaign was 30 missions long instead of 10. But instead, it's just a single mission meant to progress the plot, introduce Kel'thuzad properly and re-introduce Arthas's return to Lordaeron. It also works as a book end because it shows Arthas revisiting where his first mission in the human campaign took place. And even THEN, I think Arthas has a more personal connection to fighting the Blackrock Clan than Raynor does the Tal'darim and Raynor spends WAY more time fighting the Tal'darim. There is so much more going on in that ONE shallow, stupid WC3 mission than there is in a SERIES of missions in Wings of Liberty that are integral to the game's main plot and climax.

I think if more of the missions had been like Media Blitz, I would have liked Wings of Liberty more. Media Blitz is a well-realized mission with strong gameplay and plot integration that gives the characters a lot to do and develops their relationships while dealing with a villain that Raynor actually has a personal relationship with. Too bad it really doesn't go anywhere.
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  #158  
Old 05-30-2017, 04:37 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline
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Maybe you could for once contribute something meaningful to the discussion instead of constantly 'calling me out' because you disagree with me and taking everything I say so personally for whatever reason.
why? so you can ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative? I'm sorry, i know better than that now

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  #159  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:01 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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why? so you can ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative? I'm sorry, i know better than that now
Make better points, then.

But if you don't have anything to add except cheeky, bitchy GIFs and making passive aggressive comments while people are having an actual conversation probably best just not to say anything.

But you do what you want.

Moving on:


I enjoyed this video comparing SC1 and 2 a lot. I don't agree with a lot of it (and disagree very, very strongly with some of it), but it's a cool dissertation.
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  #160  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:38 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline
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But you do what you want.
Have i ever done differently?

"u dont make gud arguments" Such a weak defense.
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  #161  
Old 05-30-2017, 07:03 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Have i ever done differently?

"u dont make gud arguments" Such a weak defense.
Well I know it doesn't quite live up to "I'm not satisfied with your response to my argument" but we do what we can.

Like, if you can't handle having an adult conversation where people might not accept your viewpoint and subsequently agree with you I have no idea what to tell you and I have no idea why you're even posting on a discussion forum.

Like, seriously. You like Heart of the Swarm. Good for you. Go enjoy it. Stop bothering me because I don't like it and probably never will.
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  #162  
Old 06-10-2017, 11:13 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Well I know it doesn't quite live up to "I'm not satisfied with your response to my argument" but we do what we can.

Like, if you can't handle having an adult conversation where people might not accept your viewpoint and subsequently agree with you I have no idea what to tell you and I have no idea why you're even posting on a discussion forum.

Like, seriously. You like Heart of the Swarm. Good for you. Go enjoy it. Stop bothering me because I don't like it and probably never will.
The issue is that you can be rather churlish about it and are inconsistent. There are problems with SC2 but in many ways it is superior than Vanilla. You can interact with the other characters more and get a better sense of their motivation. Details are more explained rather than the little blurbs we get.

It's basically that you hold SC1 on a pedestal and ignore that a LOT of the things you slam SC2 for are in SC1 (in some ways SC1 is WORSE).

SC2 had problems but in terms of presentation it blew SC1 out of the water and the underlying ideas had the potential to outclass SC1
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