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  #7051  
Old 10-14-2018, 05:31 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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it's too bad blizzard's writing quality has declined over the years as much as it has
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  #7052  
Old 10-14-2018, 11:08 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I wouldn't be talking about credibility if I took a toxic meme created by stitching a few unrelated images taken out of context together at face value, but hey, each to their own.

Still, it's just both so incredibly amusing and sad at the same that people still fall for this "Thrall was Metzen's self-insert" meme, even though we've known for years that Furion was Metzen's favorite Warcraft III character and that he 's always mained human paladins, and it's now even sadder since thanks John Staats' World of Warcraft Dev Diary, we know Metzen was one of the few Alliance favoring developers amongst the Classic World of Warcraft development team (who were all Horde favoring because they saw the Horde as the evil faction and evil is cooler). I suppose people can't live without scapegoatism.
In fairness, I think people got that impression because Metzen once said "my heart lies with the Horde" in an interview.

http://web.archive.org/web/201209181...ed-at-blizzcon

Though yeah, I think people are mishandling the "self-insert" meme to a certain degree. A self-insert is an original character created specifically by the person they're inserting themselves in. I think a more appropriate word is something like author's pet, which is more of a character that the authors take a favoritism or liking to.

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Oh, they exist too, but they seem mostly focused on trolling night elf players in their own faction rather than defending Sylvanas out of any earnest belief that she's actually virtuous and in the right. Their "arguments" seem to boil down to the night elves having it coming basically for being night elves, rather than it being particularly relevant that Sylvanas is the particular person who's burning their tree and ravaging their lands.
I've never really seen any Human Paladin posters go after and attack Night Elf players or demean their losses in any way. The most I've seen is them be exasperated by Night Elf fans complaining about the overt human focus the Alliance is always handed and usually I see Night Elf players attacking Humans more. (Mainly in the vein of "I really hate being Alliance, it sucks here, I wish we had been neutral, humans suck, etc.)

Then again since my suspension from shitposting I've been visiting the forums less.
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  #7053  
Old 10-15-2018, 12:30 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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In fairness, I think people got that impression because Metzen once said "my heart lies with the Horde" in an interview.

http://web.archive.org/web/201209181...ed-at-blizzcon
First of all, that has nothing to do with self-inserting, nor does it excuse scapegoating. Second, context. He said while explaining the movie (the version at the time) would be Alliance-centric, assuring the fans his heart also lies with the Horde.
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  #7054  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:00 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Still, it's just both so incredibly amusing and sad at the same that people still fall for this "Thrall was Metzen's self-insert" meme, even though we've known for years that Furion was Metzen's favorite Warcraft III character and that he 's always mained human paladins, and it's now even sadder since thanks John Staats' World of Warcraft Dev Diary, we know Metzen was one of the few Alliance favoring developers amongst the Classic World of Warcraft development team (who were all Horde favoring because they saw the Horde as the evil faction and evil is cooler). I suppose people can't live without scapegoatism.
Here's the thing. Thrall is clearly a messianic character, and I certainly think Metzen put A LOT of himself into Thrall (the beard, the attitude, the "Thunder God" aspect -- Thrall borrows a lot from Thor aesthetically). But... I don't think that makes him a bad character. I don't LIKE Thrall overall, but not because I think he's a total self-insert, but just because he was SO flatly written almost for the entirety of WoW. The lost-boy aspiring to redeem his people aspect of Reign of Chaos was totally lost, and they didn't really replace it with... anything. And there was no one to really challenge him, but I don't think that was METZEN necessarily.

And Nathanos... eh? Even if he is based on the narrative lead or whatever, other than arbitrarily taking on Tyrande and holding his own -- Nathanos has always been Sylvanas's waifu, and I kinda like that he's been showing up consistently. He's a pretty threatening presence in the Horde's ranks. That really gives a face to the Forsaken in general and diversifies the race a little bit. Plus his voice is cool, he's kinda snarky and he gets some good lines.

I'm still just ticked off at the treatment of a lot of the female characters more than anything in WoW. I haven't done the Jaina storyline from BfA yet, the cutscenes didn't... impress me all that much, but I'd like to actually do it because it at least looks better than how her MoP arc ended.

I'm still just so disappointed at how Tyrande's been handled in 8.1. But they've never known how to do it.

With the Undead Night Elves being loyal to the Forsaken, they unfortunately have a lot of bad solutions.

1) The Undead faction just doesn't raise the dead. Which... I dunno, that seems wrong to me.

2) Implicate a time skip where the people they're raising are indoctrinated and persuaded to join the Forsaken in Orgrimmar or something. This is... not much better than what they did.

3) The Forsaken mind controls people. Which... is fitting, but kind of goes against their modus operandi to a degree I suppose.

I think we just have to assume that the three different Deathknell scenarios happen on a macro level. But I understand why that might be distasteful/lazy to some people. I just... don't think there's a good alternative that works in a narrative sense.

Also having said all this, I think in terms of sheer narrative, World of WarCraft: Battle for Azeroth overall is the best the game's been since Mists of Pandaria. The narrative is constantly moving, the setpieces are all really interesting (breaking into the Stockades, the Battle for Lordaeron, the War of Thorns) a clear and concise main, core cast.

I have a lot of issues with it, A LOT -- and I'm not gonna say I love it (I really don't), but objectively it's pretty consistent and solid.
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  #7055  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:55 AM
rshll rshll is offline

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Why do you complain. It used to be one quest per week with no cinematics nor important lore figures in a patch. Now they give us several stories with cinematics and it looks like it's not enough. Yes, the story is not perfect but isn't it better than nothing? Is this mmochampion?
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  #7056  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:37 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
With the Undead Night Elves being loyal to the Forsaken, they unfortunately have a lot of bad solutions.

1) The Undead faction just doesn't raise the dead. Which... I dunno, that seems wrong to me.

2) Implicate a time skip where the people they're raising are indoctrinated and persuaded to join the Forsaken in Orgrimmar or something. This is... not much better than what they did.

3) The Forsaken mind controls people. Which... is fitting, but kind of goes against their modus operandi to a degree I suppose.

I think we just have to assume that the three different Deathknell scenarios happen on a macro level. But I understand why that might be distasteful/lazy to some people. I just... don't think there's a good alternative that works in a narrative sense.
Yeah, it's almost like...raising more people in undeath is a really bad thing to be doing in every conceivable way or something.

Why, it's like as soon as the undead start raising more undead to kill their enemies, they're effectively the Scourge. Because from an objective standpoint an undead faction that's raising more undead for the purpose of killing and raising the living as more undead to kill more living and raise more undead, and so on and so forth, is the Scourge.

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  #7057  
Old 10-15-2018, 04:15 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Here's the thing. Thrall is clearly a messianic character, and I certainly think Metzen put A LOT of himself into Thrall (the beard, the attitude, the "Thunder God" aspect -- Thrall borrows a lot from Thor aesthetically). But... I don't think that makes him a bad character. I don't LIKE Thrall overall, but not because I think he's a total self-insert, but just because he was SO flatly written almost for the entirety of WoW. The lost-boy aspiring to redeem his people aspect of Reign of Chaos was totally lost, and they didn't really replace it with... anything. And there was no one to really challenge him, but I don't think that was METZEN necessarily.
You could say the very same about a large number of characters. Uther from Warcraft II looks like a copy of young Metzen, the Silver Hand bears many pseudo-nordic allusions, and the paladins love their hammers. Now, what sort of character does Metzen main? Oh, right, a human paladin.

Furthermore, half these things you mention do not apply for the RTS era. When developing Warcraft III, Metzen had no beard, his attitude was merely an act, and the Doomhammer was a rather late addition to his character (In Adventures, he wielded the axe of his father, possibly the very same axe he wielded in the early Warcraft III renders).

Finally, the whole Thrall-Metzen self-insert "theories" only started appearing with Cataclysm, and his Metzen-eque appearance got evident only with Warlords of Draenor. If a character starts looking like a self-insert over a decade after its conception, chances are he is not a self-insert, but people seeking to find something that does not exist.
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  #7058  
Old 10-15-2018, 04:23 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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First of all, that has nothing to do with self-inserting, nor does it excuse scapegoating.
I was not insinuating either of these in my post.
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  #7059  
Old 10-15-2018, 04:31 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by rshll View Post
Why do you complain. It used to be one quest per week with no cinematics nor important lore figures in a patch. Now they give us several stories with cinematics and it looks like it's not enough. Yes, the story is not perfect but isn't it better than nothing? Is this mmochampion?
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  #7060  
Old 10-15-2018, 11:17 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Originally Posted by rshll View Post
Why do you complain. It used to be one quest per week with no cinematics nor important lore figures in a patch. Now they give us several stories with cinematics and it looks like it's not enough. Yes, the story is not perfect but isn't it better than nothing? Is this mmochampion?
Because I'm a fan of the franchise and if they're going to improve the game from a technological perspective, I'm gonna criticise them for not writing it well when I think they're making mistakes.

Though a lot of the plot issues go back to how crummy Founding of Durotar and Wrath of the Lich King's last act were.

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Yeah, it's almost like...raising more people in undeath is a really bad thing to be doing in every conceivable way or something.

Why, it's like as soon as the undead start raising more undead to kill their enemies, they're effectively the Scourge. Because from an objective standpoint an undead faction that's raising more undead for the purpose of killing and raising the living as more undead to kill more living and raise more undead, and so on and so forth, is the Scourge.
I'm talking about non-diagetically. You have your sinister undead faction raising free-willed undead to bolster their armies. How do you reconce them serving the people who killed them? There's just no elegant way to do it short of having them not do it, but that just seems lame to me.

Like, ARM I'm not sure you even read my post properly here tbh. Or maybe I didn't communicate properly.

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You could say the very same about a large number of characters. Uther from Warcraft II looks like a copy of young Metzen, the Silver Hand bears many pseudo-nordic allusions, and the paladins love their hammers. Now, what sort of character does Metzen main? Oh, right, a human paladin.

Furthermore, half these things you mention do not apply for the RTS era. When developing Warcraft III, Metzen had no beard, his attitude was merely an act, and the Doomhammer was a rather late addition to his character (In Adventures, he wielded the axe of his father, possibly the very same axe he wielded in the early Warcraft III renders).
Metzen wrote WC3. He didn't write WC2. I feel it's pretty obvious Metzen put a lot of himself into Thrall. I'm not even saying it's some juvenile self-insert fantasy thing, but he CLEARLY put a lot of himself into Thrall.

Anyway, that wasn't even my point. My point was: "who cares if he did?". Thrall in WC3 is naive and innocent, he has an objective, he's a fine protagonist. And good writers often do put pieces of themselves or their experiences into their writing. That's what grounds it, makes it relatable.
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  #7061  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:33 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Anyway, that wasn't even my point. My point was: "who cares if he did?". Thrall in WC3 is naive and innocent, he has an objective, he's a fine protagonist. And good writers often do put pieces of themselves or their experiences into their writing. That's what grounds it, makes it relatable.
Alright, I can agree with that.

However, one small correction (since it relates both the argument I made in the previous post and since I generally dislike misconceptions). Metzen did in fact write Warcraft II, at least for the most part. The manual solely credits him for "Story & Design", the Warcraft II map was designed by him and Stu Rose based on his personal concepts (http://zaphoyd.com/wowcemaps/web-Images/2.jpg), and on many occassions, he mentioned how he invented this nation or that clan in Warcraft II (like the famous line that the team sometimes wishes he did not invent the Dragonmaws back in the day and that he sometimes wishes he didn't either).
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  #7062  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:28 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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I'm talking about non-diagetically. You have your sinister undead faction raising free-willed undead to bolster their armies. How do you reconce them serving the people who killed them? There's just no elegant way to do it short of having them not do it, but that just seems lame to me.

Like, ARM I'm not sure you even read my post properly here tbh. Or maybe I didn't communicate properly.
That's kind of my point. It can't be reconciled. The only way that a sinister undead faction raising free-willed undead to bolster their armies works is if they only raise dead allies. To also raise fallen enemies there must be mind control involved for it to make sense.

We already had an undead faction doing both. It was the Scourge. It raised willing allies (the vrykul and Cult of the Damned) as undead, while mind-controlling raised enemies.

Consequently, by raising undead and not limiting it to their own Horde allies, the Forsaken must in effect function like the Scourge for it to add up. So despite out-of-game claims otherwise, every Alliance corpse that gets raised and serves the Forsaken after being killed by them effectively functions the same way a minion of the Lich King would, via the "spontaneously evil" mechanism that the Scourge would use to turn stalwart allies of the living suddenly into sneering adherents of the Lich King as soon as their bodies would start moving again.
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  #7063  
Old 10-15-2018, 06:07 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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They tried to wave off the obvious problems with Forsaken getting so many loyal troops by saying the living/Humanity are meanies and that apparently there are totally many raised dead who aren't forced to serve Sylvanas.
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  #7064  
Old 10-15-2018, 06:57 PM
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I'm finding weird that 8.1 has so little new art assets.

Where's the new juicy models? New character customizations? Music? Very underwhelming, it feels more like a 8.0.5 patch.

Even Kul Tirans are still lacking variety in customization, and they are meant to be one of the patch's features.
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  #7065  
Old 10-15-2018, 07:29 PM
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They tried to wave off the obvious problems with Forsaken getting so many loyal troops by saying the living/Humanity are meanies and that apparently there are totally many raised dead who aren't forced to serve Sylvanas.
The funny thing is, BtS should arguably have disillusioned a lot of Forsaken of that. Even if Sylvanas ran with the whole spiel about it being a trick by Anduin to usurp her leadership of the Forsaken via Calia (it might be assumed she told them that, as Anduin and Genn surmised she would, but the fact is it's never really come up again since), that doesn't make it an Alliance plot to eradicate the undead.

That makes it a plot to reclaim the people of Lordaeron, because the dirt and stones of Lordaeron wouldn't care one way another about Calia's legitimacy. Only the people would. Which makes the "plot" seeming proof that apparently the Alliance really does want their undead kin returned to them, so much that they'd try such a stunt, despite all these years of the Banshee Queen telling the Forsaken that their own living relatives would sooner destroy them than welcome them home.

And when you lessen that collective fear of the living, the remaining basis for continued loyalty to Sylvanas would logically and increasingly become just the fear that she and her more fanatical devotees will kill any of them who dare to stray.

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  #7066  
Old 10-15-2018, 09:00 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
I'm finding weird that 8.1 has so little new art assets.

Where's the new juicy models? New character customizations? Music? Very underwhelming, it feels more like a 8.0.5 patch.

Even Kul Tirans are still lacking variety in customization, and they are meant to be one of the patch's features.
There are a bunch of new models and art assets for Darkshore, though all of them are HD updates of old models and architecture (like nightsabers, ancients, Aubderdine's docks, trees and grass textures, that huge Forsaken warship that doesn't seem to do anything). The raid is surprisingly light on assets. They didn't even make Zuldazar look all that invaded. I would think there should at least be a bunch of destroyed boats in the harbor. Right now it's just two Alliance ships and all the Zandalari boats are still intact sitting right behind them.

As for the Kul Tirans and Zandalari, I'm really thinking they're not coming in 8.1, but an 8.1.5 patch. Right now they're missing at least /dance animations (even the Zandalari don't have them despite using night elf and troll skeletons, or at least they aren't available in WoWhead's dressing room) and most helm models still don't work on Kul Tirans.

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  #7067  
Old 10-15-2018, 11:33 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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That's kind of my point. It can't be reconciled. The only way that a sinister undead faction raising free-willed undead to bolster their armies works is if they only raise dead allies. To also raise fallen enemies there must be mind control involved for it to make sense.
Well I think there are other solutions, but they're not particularly elegant.

I think for me, I prefer the plot hole to the Forsaken being lame ducks or them mind controlling people.

I'm most likely alone in that, but that's my preference I suppose. If this is how everything is going to be set up anyway.
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  #7068  
Old 10-15-2018, 11:51 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Well I think there are other solutions, but they're not particularly elegant.

I think for me, I prefer the plot hole to the Forsaken being lame ducks or them mind controlling people.

I'm most likely alone in that, but that's my preference I suppose. If this is how everything is going to be set up anyway.
As far as I am concerned, I'd prefer a case of subtle mind alteration (the val'kyr altering a small part of their perception and evaluation capabilities, altering their behavior without any need to take control directly) rather than outright mind control or a plot hole.
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  #7069  
Old Yesterday, 09:01 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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As far as I am concerned, I'd prefer a case of subtle mind alteration (the val'kyr altering a small part of their perception and evaluation capabilities, altering their behavior without any need to take control directly) rather than outright mind control or a plot hole.
Well. I think that'd be a little bit cumbersome too because that's really hard to communicate and it sounds kinda weak. Sort of like what they did with Kerrigan in Heart. "She wasn't mind controlled... she was just sorta mind controlled." I like plot points to be a lot more pointed than that. Direct. Especially in this sort of genre because it's just not a good medium for subtle ambiguity like that.

Also, sorry missed this:

Quote:
However, one small correction (since it relates both the argument I made in the previous post and since I generally dislike misconceptions). Metzen did in fact write Warcraft II, at least for the most part. The manual solely credits him for "Story & Design", the Warcraft II map was designed by him and Stu Rose based on his personal concepts (http://zaphoyd.com/wowcemaps/web-Images/2.jpg), and on many occassions, he mentioned how he invented this nation or that clan in Warcraft II (like the famous line that the team sometimes wishes he did not invent the Dragonmaws back in the day and that he sometimes wishes he didn't either).
Right! I think I was thinking of WarCraft 1 probably.
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Old Yesterday, 01:56 PM
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You know, if this Night Warrior offered the night elves protection from necromancy, I would feel far better about this patch. Whether that is by making those who went though the ritual immune or allowed them to usher the souls of the fallen into an Elunite afterlife.

It would be tragic, with Sira and Delaryn being raised, but it would also give the night elves (and their players) hope.

That does of course not mean that I do not still wish to get a better reason for both of them serving Sylvanas.

(I already said this in the Discord, but since I intend to start posting more again, I decided to state it here too. And if I'm lucky, I'm not only not too late and the lurker is still reading SoL.)
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  #7071  
Old Yesterday, 02:48 PM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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You know, if this Night Warrior offered the night elves protection from necromancy, I would feel far better about this patch. Whether that is by making those who went though the ritual immune or allowed them to usher the souls of the fallen into an Elunite afterlife.

It would be tragic, with Sira and Delaryn being raised, but it would also give the night elves (and their players) hope.

That does of course not mean that I do not still wish to get a better reason for both of them serving Sylvanas.
I hope something like that too. I've long felt bad since they revealed that anyone raised as a forsaken is doomed to an awful afterlife. I just wish Elune would do more. She barely has a presence. I'd like to see anything of An'she too.

Unrelated, but does anyone wish that those lightforged draenei beard options were available to regular draenei? Have they said anything about allied races getting more customization options?

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Old Yesterday, 04:35 PM
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Unrelted, but does anyone wish that those lightforged draenei beard options were available to regular draenei? Have they said anything about allied races getting more customization options?
They said about collecting feedback to improve them in earlier interviews this year, but nothing beyond that.
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  #7073  
Old Yesterday, 08:41 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Unrelated, but does anyone wish that those lightforged draenei beard options were available to regular draenei? Have they said anything about allied races getting more customization options?
If you only could customize your way out of having a stupid-looking tail, I'd already be playing a Qunari-looking Lightforged Draenei.

EDIT:

It's sad to see people wailing on the forums saying that there's no reward to chase after in BFA.



Did they forget about this?

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