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  #51  
Old 04-11-2014, 02:27 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Drannosh Saurfang. Varimathras and Putress (Horde-related but not heroes).
Right, I forgot, and Fordragon survived to become the new Lich King. On another subject, the "There must always a Lich King" plottwist didn't make any sense to me.

I get, there was a need for the Scourge NPCs to stay there, but couldn't they just have Kel'thuzad and a variety of necromancers take control after Arthas fall?

It doesn't make any sense for the undead to go berserk, and have to be held back. the last time, the Lich King was wounded, it created the Forsaken. If anything, the remaining undead should regained their independence, or dropped dead without the Lich King's will animating them.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #52  
Old 04-11-2014, 02:34 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't the original plan for Bolvar to be 100% KIA at the Wrathgate? But then people sort of came up with the idea (contrary to the Draconic language stuff) of him being alive, so they slipped it in? Makes sense he'd be dead given there's nothing left to imply the Scourge had the time to drag his carcass back through Angathar.
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  #53  
Old 04-11-2014, 02:36 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
I am quite sick of fighting Horde heroes at this point.

I think WOTLK is the only expansion where both factions didn't slaughter Heroes of the Horde or Horde related factions.
You should be proud. Horde characters are the only ones that stand for anything and are willing to fight for what they believe in.
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  #54  
Old 04-11-2014, 03:41 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't the original plan for Bolvar to be 100% KIA at the Wrathgate? But then people sort of came up with the idea (contrary to the Draconic language stuff) of him being alive, so they slipped it in? Makes sense he'd be dead given there's nothing left to imply the Scourge had the time to drag his carcass back through Angathar.
I think so, yeah. At the very least whether they planned on killing him or not (maybe he was supposed to be a boss with Saurfang Jr), they certainly didn't plan on him becoming Lich King.
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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  #55  
Old 04-11-2014, 04:13 PM
Galka Galka is offline

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Originally Posted by Hellscream1 View Post
This has been something that has been bugging me for a while and was prevalent throughout the end of MoP.

Why exactly would an Orc character wish to go against his people? They have never given us a real reason other than 'lolgoodguys'. Take MoP for example. An Orc player has -no- real reason to go against Garrosh. Why would you go against the Warchief who wishes to secure your people prosperity and safety through any means necessary? I don't see how an Orc could put other races above his own people. That right there is disgusting, honestly. Abandon your people to aid a selfish Troll and spineless Tauren, simply to etch out another meager existence in a barren desert with no visions of greatness or bettering your race. Due to this whole Horde fiasco, I am now an Alliance player despite my hate for the faction.

Now this brings me onto my next point. Why the hell would an Orc player wish to fight the Iron Horde? Any Orc would wish to fight alongside the legends of the past, and conquer his enemies. Why would I want to kill Grom, Ner'zhul, Teron, Kargath, Blackhand, ect. They give -no- reason for me to do that. Forced to kill the heroes of the past instead of working alongside them. Kill them because Vol'jin told you too. Great reasoning right there.

Basically, Orcs have no motivation to fight enemies of the last two expansions. It's getting real old. Wish I could join the Iron Horde.
The bolded is something that comes up in real politics a lot. You have a very nationalistic mindset, whereas I'm more of a cosmopolitan, so I only see humans, not Americans or whatever. In game that translates to sentient creatures, not just Orc or Elf.

So as long as you accept that this divide might exist in game, is it so hard to believe that an Orc would put the wellbeing of his Horde brethren above the needs of just one of the many sentient (and all equally deserving of "human" rights) races?
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  #56  
Old 04-11-2014, 04:31 PM
Grunn Grunn is offline

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I'm kinda late to the party, but why are we using pants as a mark of technical advancement?
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  #57  
Old 04-11-2014, 05:05 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Originally Posted by Galka View Post
So as long as you accept that this divide might exist in game, is it so hard to believe that an Orc would put the wellbeing of his Horde brethren above the needs of just one of the many sentient (and all equally deserving of "human" rights) races?
Historical and cultural differences do in fact matter. Don't dismiss them out of hand just because you claim not to value your own above those that belong to others.

As for the orcs following Garrosh, they didn't hate the rest of the Horde races because they didn't follow Garrosh. They hated them because they were traitors to the Warchief.

They had their chance. They could have followed Garrosh, but they chose not to. They could have chosen to sit the war out, but they chose not to. Given one final chance to prove themselves loyal, and they still failed.

I mean, in order to justify the rebellion, Vol'jin and Thrall appeal to base sentimentality (family) and resort to historical revisionism (basically everything else). That is all they had to distinquish themselves from Garrosh and his Horde. They had to lie and bullshit their supporters into believing in them and their cause (which was purely selfish and devoid of any nobility).

What were the rebels fighting for? Their lives, because they betrayed the national leader on the grounds that they just didn't like him very much.
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  #58  
Old 04-11-2014, 06:59 PM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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I'll bite.

Rebellions and resistance against governments and autocratic figures have started for a lot, lot less within our own world nevermind a fictional one.

Garrosh's downfall predicament was caused by his similiar mindset to Windrunner, the forsaken were arrows in her quiver to aim at Arthas. Silvermoon, the darkspear, the forsaken, Thunger Bluff and the Bilgewater Cartel were all arrows his his quiver for the Alliance. However he found his own people better arrows than the rest, despite the other arrows being better than his own people at certain roles:

The blood elves: naturally better at magic than orcs and they boast brilliant archers (Ranger Corps/Farstriders) and shocktroopers/cavalry (Blood Knight). Not to mention that if the shit hits the fan, they can always call on the Reliquary for deus ex machina and we can have a repeat of Desolace.

The Purge was caused by Garrosh, blood was spilled in Silvermoon over the divine bell; a disaster in their capital is enough to justify a civil, while it isn't public knowledge as of yet, Aethas knows the Purge is the backlash of the mechanisms of Garrosh

The forsaken: they don't breath, they don't feel much pain and need to be completely destroyed to make sure they don't come back. While not fantastic soldiers, they can easily be massed, for every orc that falls they can easily be thrown into the forsaken ranks. The Apothacarium and their deus ex machina.

Insults against Windrunner, etc.

The tauren: They are physically stronger and bigger than orcs, they out-do them on the strength which Garrosh oh-so-loves. Druids, druids can be a pain in the rear like it was shown in Silverpine quests with the worgen getting behind the forsaken and ambushing them while pretending to be bears. Rawr.

Baine's dislike of Theramore and Garrosh's heavy-handed approach to warfare set the stage for tauren rebellion.

The trolls: I am not fantastic with Darkspear lore, again, druids. shadow hunters are great assassins/chaos causers, too.

Never got on, attempted assassination.

The Bilgewater folks: Engineering. Explosives. Numbers. Wealth.

Refusal to pay and general shitty treatment of goblins.

Sure, some of the reasons aren't too great but there's no actual "rules" to declaring war as far as we know; there is no such thing as a casus belli.

While the orcs make great warriors and shamans, the other members of the Horde excel at other roles which -- when combined -- pretty much out-play what the orcs have to offer if you subtract external influence.

I don't consider Garrosh stupid, Theramore and the purge pretty much speak for his cunning. But his entire downfall is caused by his superiority complex, like mentioned earlier, iron is neat but steel -- an alloy -- is much stronger.

Orcs may well believe they're better than everyone else in the Horde, but that racial superiority is delusion at its finest.

An archer and a heavily armoured knight are in combat, the archer sneers at the thought of armour piercing arrows; the normal arrows he fletches are of mucher higher quality thus superior, he boasts. He has a few armour piercing arrows in his quiver, however he has always been callous with them, the feathers on them are ragged and the shaft is splintered from mistreatment.

Garrosh the archer fires one of his own arrows at the Alliance knight, it simply bounces off the armour -- it leaves a bruise underneath, there's no doubt about that! He finally realises that he needs those armour piercing arrows, he swipes one up and fires it at the knight. The arrow is bent and tattered, it betrays commands and veers towards the ground. The knight runs the archer through.

Yada, yada, yada.
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  #59  
Old 04-11-2014, 08:02 PM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

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Well for one us as Orcs do not really want to kill all our allied races and friends...

I bet there will be those who will go to the Iron Horde due to Garrosh being a part of it but i am sure there are many loyal to Thrall whom doesn't want to. Not only that a lot of Orcs were in the rebellion.
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  #60  
Old 04-11-2014, 08:48 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Originally Posted by Insipid_Lobster View Post
Garrosh's downfall predicament was caused by his similiar mindset to Windrunner, the forsaken were arrows in her quiver to aim at Arthas. Silvermoon, the darkspear, the forsaken, Thunger Bluff and the Bilgewater Cartel were all arrows his his quiver for the Alliance. However he found his own people better arrows than the rest, despite the other arrows being better than his own people at certain roles:
Garrosh didn't care about race. He cared about loyalty and strength. And unlike Sylvanas, Garrosh doesn't hide behind people. He's always taking the lead and he doesn't have extra lives like Sylvanas and Vol'jin do.

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The Purge was caused by Garrosh, blood was spilled in Silvermoon over the divine bell; a disaster in their capital is enough to justify a civil, while it isn't public knowledge as of yet, Aethas knows the Purge is the backlash of the mechanisms of Garrosh
No, the one's responsible for the purge are the Sunreavers being disloyal to Dalaran and Jania Proudmoore who decided that she didn't need proof of their treason to kick them out.

Quote:
The forsaken: they don't breath, they don't feel much pain and need to be completely destroyed to make sure they don't come back. While not fantastic soldiers, they can easily be massed, for every orc that falls they can easily be thrown into the forsaken ranks. The Apothacarium and their deus ex machina.
They are also proven backstabbers.

Quote:
Insults against Windrunner, etc.
Yeah, she had just raised the dead right in front of him and had disobeyed his orders to not use the plague against Gilneas. He might call her a biatch, but can you really argue that she wasn't one?

Quote:
The tauren: They are physically stronger and bigger than orcs, they out-do them on the strength which Garrosh oh-so-loves. Druids, druids can be a pain in the rear like it was shown in Silverpine quests with the worgen getting behind the forsaken and ambushing them while pretending to be bears. Rawr.
Garrosh hasn't disrespected the Tauren at all, despite the fact that their leader tried to kill him for something he didn't do, while the one other leader tricked him into committing murder. The Tauren closest to Garrosh were all jerks.

Quote:
Baine's dislike of Theramore and Garrosh's heavy-handed approach to warfare set the stage for tauren rebellion.
I think war is heavy-handed by it's very nature.

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The trolls: I am not fantastic with Darkspear lore, again, druids. shadow hunters are great assassins/chaos causers, too.

Never got on, attempted assassination.
Trolls are lazy and disloyal.

Quote:
The Bilgewater folks: Engineering. Explosives. Numbers. Wealth.

Refusal to pay and general shitty treatment of goblins.
1.) Goblins treat eachother like shit. Garrosh really couldn't have done worse than Gallywix himself.

2.) I wouldn't pay for something that was as likely to fall apart as it was to blow up in my face.

Quote:
I don't consider Garrosh stupid, Theramore and the purge pretty much speak for his cunning. But his entire downfall is caused by his superiority complex, like mentioned earlier, iron is neat but steel -- an alloy -- is much stronger.
He tried to involve the Blood Elves in the war and all they did was complain about being killed. Like they were actually shocked about dying while fighting a war.

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Orcs may well believe they're better than everyone else in the Horde, but that racial superiority is delusion at its finest.
This may be less than belief in their own superiorty and more in their general importance within the Horde. They are the Horde's strongest and most influential race, and it's because of them that the other races have survived. A fact that the other races in the Horde resent.
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  #61  
Old 04-11-2014, 09:19 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
1.) Goblins treat eachother like shit. Garrosh really couldn't have done worse than Gallywix himself.
Goblins actually don't treat eachother that badly, many like Sassy, Ace, and gazlowe do have loyalty to their friends.

Gallywix is an utterly incompetent Sociopath, and I'll admit he's treated the Bilgewater far worse then Garrosh ever has.

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The trolls: I am not fantastic with Darkspear lore, again, druids. shadow hunters are great assassins/chaos causers, too.
Trolls can actually really strong, particularly Troll Berserkers. Though Berserkers, particularly Darkspear Berserkers are a rare sight in WoW for some reason.

Darkspear also have really low numbers.

Garrosh did the larger Shatterspear tribe of Trolls, but they were killed off right afterwards because only the Darkspear get plot armor, and all other trolls must die apparently.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #62  
Old 04-11-2014, 09:44 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I'll take canon or disregard it as I see fit. Just like Blizzard does.
In the end, everyone cherry-picks the lore to some extent.
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  #63  
Old 04-11-2014, 10:11 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Honestly before figuring out why the orcs of Azeroth would fight against the Iron Horde, we have yet to even know why the Iron Horde cares about Azeroth enough to invade it in the first place, so...presumably some sinister reasoning will be given that makes them an enemy to everyone; hopefully one more comprehensive than just an assumption that every orc on Draenor cares as much as Garrosh does about his personal desire to prove to Azeroth and himself that he can build a better Horde.

As it stands, the orcs of the Iron Horde have a perfectly good, non-corrupted Draenor they can conquer and inhabit, so the very idea that they're sending thousands of troops to invade a whole other planet (prematurely as it turns out, since they're apparently still battling for dominance of their own planet against the draenei, Arakkoa, and other dissident orcish clans) seems pretty screwy, reckless and lacking of rational justification on their part.

The Iron Horde's made out to be this massive threat to all of Azeroth, yet they not only can't finish conquering Draenor as thoroughly as the original Horde did, but have decided to split their forces and start invading a new world before they've finished quelling the one they've got? What kind of plan is that?

It's almost as bad as Ner'zhul's plan in BtDP to save a starving, depleted, demoralized Horde stuck on Draenor by...opening a ton of portals and sending them off to start a bunch of interplanetary invasions. Because obviously having the already severely weakened Horde initiate fifty wars at once against unknown species on uncharted worlds wouldn't be a surefire way to get them wiped out as quickly as possible...

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  #64  
Old 04-11-2014, 10:21 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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The implication from some of the datamined dialogue is that the Iron Horde believes the Azerothians are going to bring the Burning Legion down on them, so the plan would be to take Azeroth out first, before that happens. At the very least that's what Orgrim seems to believe.
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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  #65  
Old 04-11-2014, 10:32 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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The implication from some of the datamined dialogue is that the Iron Horde believes the Azerothians are going to bring the Burning Legion down on them, so the plan would be to take Azeroth out first, before that happens. At the very least that's what Orgrim seems to believe.
Is there any sign anyone but Orgrim thinks this?
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  #66  
Old 04-11-2014, 10:36 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Is there any sign anyone but Orgrim thinks this?
No. Which is why I said "at least that's what Orgrim seems to think." At the very least the Frostwolves are wary of green skinned orcs, as seen when Durotan meets Thrall.

Until (if) we get a reason I'm just trying to rationalize it. I could see Garrosh riling the orcs up with lies about us controlling the demons though.
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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  #67  
Old 04-11-2014, 10:38 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Is there any sign anyone but Orgrim thinks this?
I'd say Ner'zhul thinks it as well. I'd actually go as far as to say Ner'zhul was the one who actually helped Garrosh get the main clans on his side.
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  #68  
Old 04-11-2014, 10:39 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I'd say Ner'zhul thinks it as well. I'd actually go as far as to say Ner'zhul was the one who actually helped Garrosh get the main clans on his side.
Doesn't that contradict the dialogue we have that says Garrosh showed up on Ner'zhul's doorstep and said "Join or die"?

From Ner'zhul's 'wife'?
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  #69  
Old 04-11-2014, 10:41 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Doesn't that contradict the dialogue we have that says Garrosh showed up on Ner'zhul's doorstep and said "Join or die"?

From Ner'zhul's 'wife'?
I haven't actually paid attention to any datamined dialogue.
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Old 04-11-2014, 10:42 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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There is that I suppose, but even if it isn't just Orgrim, it seems like a pretty roundabout and convoluted means of convincing the Iron Horde orcs that they need to build a Dark Portal and invade Azeroth.

Especially since telling the orcs that invading Azeroth would let them avoid fighting an enemy who's even bigger and meaner seems like the best way to prevent them from attacking Azeroth.
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  #71  
Old 04-11-2014, 10:53 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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There is that I suppose, but even if it isn't just Orgrim, it seems like a pretty roundabout and convoluted means of convincing the Iron Horde orcs that they need to build a Dark Portal and invade Azeroth.
Azeroth is just the first planet. This is the Horde gunning to form a star spanning empire. One that might be able to stand against the Burning Legion. It's actually quite brillant. Garrosh knows that the Legion is out there and is doing something about it. The glory and conquest is just a bonus.

Unlike every other pea-brained moron, Garrosh's vision stays true. He knows it's folly to try and remain hidden or to run away forever. For every world that falls, it is one more world to fight the Legion and all that would threaten the Horde!

And you people thought that Garrosh was crazy when he tried to enslave an old god lol
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Old 04-11-2014, 10:55 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
Azeroth is just the first planet. This is the Horde gunning to form a star spanning empire. One that might be able to stand against the Burning Legion. It's actually quite brillant. Garrosh knows that the Legion is out there and is doing something about it. The glory and conquest is just a bonus.

Unlike every other pea-brained moron, Garrosh's vision stays true. He knows it's folly to try and remain hidden or to run away forever. For every world that falls, it is one more world to fight the Legion and all that would threaten the Horde!

And you people thought that Garrosh was crazy when he tried to enslave an old god lol
And here you were, calling yourself lazy and disloyal. You really shouldn't be so hard on yourself.
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  #73  
Old 04-11-2014, 10:58 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
Azeroth is just the first planet. This is the Horde gunning to form a star spanning empire. One that might be able to stand against the Burning Legion. It's actually quite brillant. Garrosh knows that the Legion is out there and is doing something about it. The glory and conquest is just a bonus.

Unlike every other pea-brained moron, Garrosh's vision stays true. He knows it's folly to try and remain hidden or to run away forever. For every world that falls, it is one more world to fight the Legion and all that would threaten the Horde!

And you people thought that Garrosh was crazy when he tried to enslave an old god lol
It is one more world to waste needless effort on in the attempt to beat it into submission. Worlds which will rebel the first chance they get as the Iron Horde spreads itself thin. Just like with any other bunch of Tyrants ruling through fear, they'll eventually run into those who will grow sick of their shit and throw them back.

Also. Garrosh never enslaved any Old God.
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  #74  
Old 04-11-2014, 11:00 PM
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Honestly, you guys should visit Spacebattles.com some stime. They'll teach you more about warfare than any game made by Blizzard ever could. Because they're a bunch of nerds that like to think about burning planets all the time lol
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  #75  
Old 04-11-2014, 11:29 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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The only reason you want to fight the Iron Horde is because it's trying to kill you.
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"All right, I'll get that kid to eat. Where's my screw driver and my plumber's helper? I'll open up his mouth and I'll shove it in."


The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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