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Old 07-01-2014, 05:01 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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Grunt Confusion Over Allegiance

Now I'm making another new topic, and this time I'm not talking about Garrosh. This time, it's the orcish clans in general, in relation to Warlords of Draenor.

In this we see the chaotic, Depending-On-The-Writer procedure that wrecked Garrosh. Some are portrayed as irredeemably evil, others are treated as virtuous or skilled, but presented in a thoroughly dark manner. To illustrate the point, let me demonstrate, the differing portrayals of Ner'zhul and his Shadowmoon clan and Kargath Bladefist and his Shattered Hand clan:
Ner'zhul/Shadowmoon: When the concept was first released online, Ner'zhul was described as forward-thinking and contemplative, but caught in the middle of a rising tide of violence that he wasn't in a good place to oppose. His clan was said to be destroying the planet but it wasn't clear how. By now, it's been added that Garrosh discredited them by revealing Ner'zhul's status as a pawn, and when presented with the Join Or Die option, Ner'zhul chose to join. He and the Shadowmoon start calling on void magic to contribute to Garrosh's new army. The little screen time the shaman who led the Horde of Draenor in our timeline gets so far portrays him as loyal to the Iron Horde (despite his mentioned reluctance) and a bit of a loon.
He doesn't get any sympathetic actions or scenes, I notice. Which is okay if they're still developing him, but I want to know what kind of portrayal they're going with. Like I've said before, it doesn't work for me when establishing lore requires me to use my imagination. This isn't like with the possible alternate interpretations of Arthas; his motives and actions were clear cut and well-documented. Ner'zhul's intended level of sympathy seems to be in flux.

Meanwhile...
Kargath Bladefist/Shattered Hand: Anyone who knows about Bladefist being a member of the Shadow Council or leading the Fel Horde back in The Burning Crusade can probably guess what kind of guy our old friend Kargath is. He was first described as "the most hate-filled orc ever to attach a scythe to the stump of his severed wrist". Meanwhile, the Shattered Hand do the same thing, and together they live a lifestyle akin to BDSM. A while later it was revealed Kargath and his clan are former slaves of the ogres, and Kargath cut off his hand to free himself and lead them in an uprising, after which the clan was formed.
That certainly sounds like something we'd sympathise with, even admire, but the Bladefist Bunch are all the bad guys and their boss is the Final Boss of Highmaul, one of the two raids in the initial patch, rendering all of that moot. I mean, Bladefist doesn't have nearly enough fans to survive a boss fight. No dice.

But those things aren't really what's bothering me. No, that would be the situation with the Frostwolves and the Thunderlords.

Now, I created my username because, in one headcanon I created when I was younger, the Thunderlord Fortress questline ended with old Garm Wolfbrother calling you one of his clan, and therefore, the last of the Thunderlords. I consider it one of my early non-written narrative endeavours that sucked the least, so it seemed most appropriate to use when I stumbled upon this forum. I mean, all the quests you do to avenge their fall to the ogres, the acceptance, the portrayal of the Thunderlords in the books - it all implies that they were genuinely okay guys (well, about as okay as you're allowed to be if you lived before Green Je- Thrall.

Instead, Blizzard justifies the relentless killing of them, while at the same time making them actually cool, by making them relentlessly, irredeemably evil. Their chieftain is really a Frostwolf kinslayer; they don't get a single line of dialogue that suggests they have any integrity; Ga'nar kills the Iron Wolf's three sons and we're supposed to cheer - or put it this way, we have no choice but to be party to it. The Frostwolves react to them like utter sociopaths, and we're made to want to side with them because they're the lighter shade of dark.

Three things I feel:

1. The time the Thunderlords appear in force as cool and badass is the same time they get hit with the villain ball and have their asses handed to them by the Frostwolves.

2. I appreciate the early signs for Thrall that his ancestors aren't as great as history makes them look, but please don't try to make them sympathetic by making the other side utterly worse. The message gets to garbled and caught up in controversy.

3. It's a real shame Blizzard took this route, because the same time they start introducing the Garrisons, which are shaping up to be cool, dynamic and exactly the surge in new ideas and playstyle that Mists of Pandaria was supposed to be is the same time Thrall's special ancestors became our wonderful new do-no-wrong allies. Lame.

Anyway, that's my take. I'd like to hear from the rest of you about how you feel about this.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:24 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Bleeding Hollow gets the same treatment, its a big problem with WoD.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:47 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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Bleeding Hollow gets the same treatment, its a big problem with WoD.
Yeah. I mean, so far, the worst thing you can say happened to the Bleeding Hollow is that they got the Tarzan treatment, but Kilrogg Deadeye was one of the most awesome orcs in history, but people ignore him to debate the heroism of Grom, the evilness of Gul'dan, how much of a better Lich King Arthas or Ner'zhul was etc. His son Jorin struck me as one of the most firm but rational, defensive but open orcs in Nagrand, never mind elsewhere, and yet we get no mention of him afterwards - just Dranosh's time in the Horde-cut-tragically-short and Garrosh's fish flopping nature. How wunderbar that we see their clan promptly disappear once the intro scenes are over, and that Kilrogg is somehow just as evil as, say, Blackhand or Gul'dan.

Heh, for a while after I saw all that rubbish going on in Frostfire Ridge I thought about calling myself Last Of The Laughing Skull, or Last Of The Burning Blade or whatever, but I'm not that susceptible to guilt by association.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:53 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Yeah. I mean, so far, the worst thing you can say happened to the Bleeding Hollow is that they got the Tarzan treatment, but Kilrogg Deadeye was one of the most awesome orcs in history, but people ignore him to debate the heroism of Grom, the evilness of Gul'dan, how much of a better Lich King Arthas or Ner'zhul was etc. His son Jorin struck me as one of the most firm but rational, defensive but open orcs in Nagrand, never mind elsewhere, and yet we get no mention of him afterwards - just Dranosh's time in the Horde-cut-tragically-short and Garrosh's fish flopping nature. How wunderbar that we see their clan promptly disappear once the intro scenes are over, and that Kilrogg is somehow just as evil as, say, Blackhand or Gul'dan.

Heh, for a while after I saw all that rubbish going on in Frostfire Ridge I thought about calling myself Last Of The Laughing Skull, or Last Of The Burning Blade or whatever, but I'm not that susceptible to guilt by association.
Pretty much, Danath even respected Kilrogg, and a good portion of the modern Horde has Bleeding Hollow heritage.

Some people are saying that its alternate universe or something due to time travel, but really it just seems to be lazy writing.
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:13 PM
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Early on I was hoping Ner'zhul's storyline would end with him being defeated, but not killed. Then the Shadowmoon Clan, freed from its forced servitude to the Iron Horde, would ally with the Alliance. Maybe even with a redeemed Ner'zhul still in charge. I thought it'd go a long way to combat the idea of "Orcs are always jerks, with or without demon blood." Instead you could point to the Shadowmoon Clan as an example of future Human-Orc cooperation.

But it seems that most recently, aside from Rulkan's small band of exiles, the entire clan has turned into void-using lunatics.
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:14 PM
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It's because Orcs are dumb and have a culture based around dumb meatheaded jockness.
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:24 PM
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:31 PM
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A problem with the orcs that I can think of is that if the history of Warcraft was actually played out as described in the canon, there should be barely any adult male orcs left. You've got war after war after war with the Horde where orc men as the primary combatants are killed hand-over-fist and yet they somehow still maintain this seemingly endless fountain of manpower.
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:32 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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A problem with the orcs that I can think of is that if the history of Warcraft was actually played out as described in the canon, there should be barely any adult male orcs left. You've got war after war after war with the Horde where orc men as the primary combatants are killed hand-over-fist and yet they somehow still maintain this seemingly endless fountain of manpower.
That applies to almost every other major race with a few exceptions such as the dwarves.
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:47 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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Pretty much, Danath even respected Kilrogg, and a good portion of the modern Horde has Bleeding Hollow heritage.

Some people are saying that its alternate universe or something due to time travel, but really it just seems to be lazy writing.
If I had any say in it, the BlizzCon Q&A would have gone more like this:

Fan: "Blizzard, how is this set up even possible? You've always told us through the Bronze Dragonflight that if even a single detail of the past were to be thrown off-kilter, the whole universe would go horribly wrong. Now you tell us an AU is happening? How?"

Blizzard: "Alright, look: we painted ourselves into a creative corner when we decided to make Garrosh a bad guy and not kill him. We originally wanted him to make a Dark Horde, but we'd already done that. We then considered a Mongrel Horde, in which Garrosh and his remaining orc friends got help from troggs, gnolls, kobolds and centaurs, but that idea was stupid, so it was scrapped. Instead, we found ourselves with literally nothing that we felt at liberty to exploit that would avoid the pitfalls of Pandaria and we didn't want to pull anything else out of our asses... but this happened. We don't have any explanation for this AU, none that you'll accept anyway, so please stop asking us for a good response -we don't have one!

Fan: "Honesty... how refreshing."

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Early on I was hoping Ner'zhul's storyline would end with him being defeated, but not killed. Then the Shadowmoon Clan, freed from its forced servitude to the Iron Horde, would ally with the Alliance. Maybe even with a redeemed Ner'zhul still in charge. I thought it'd go a long way to combat the idea of "Orcs are always jerks, with or without demon blood." Instead you could point to the Shadowmoon Clan as an example of future Human-Orc cooperation.

But it seems that most recently, aside from Rulkan's small band of exiles, the entire clan has turned into void-using lunatics.
That's what I was hoping for too. If Ner'zhul manages to turn himself around and reconcile with Rulkan and her bunch I might be tempted to forgive Blizzard for ruining Garrosh and the Thunderlords.

"Might" being the operative word.
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:48 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Also some people think Warlords is an advertisement for the WoW movie which would make sense.
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:50 PM
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The movie is going to be bad.
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:52 PM
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The movie is going to be bad.
I fear that, by golly, it probably is. RTS to MMO? Was a good idea. MMO to Movie, on the other hand? No. Just no.
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:53 PM
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Blizzard is aware of these changes. It's possible the time travel altered some things even further.
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:00 PM
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A problem with the orcs that I can think of is that if the history of Warcraft was actually played out as described in the canon, there should be barely any adult male orcs left. You've got war after war after war with the Horde where orc men as the primary combatants are killed hand-over-fist and yet they somehow still maintain this seemingly endless fountain of manpower.
I find that to be a highly depressing thought. Let it be restated, however, that the warlocks were not above artificially aging children for use as fodder. And forced pregnancy. I know, it was not a nice time to live in.

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Blizzard is aware of these changes. It's possible the time travel altered some things even further.
How, exactly? The Bleeding Hollow weren't swinging from the trees and beating their chests in our universe. What could Garrosh have done in two years that made them into the banana-eating, flea-picking, hang-in-the-trees-and-go-OOK-OOK! oddities we see before us today?
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:07 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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We don't know.
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:16 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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Well, not for nothing but Ner'zhul using void magic drained from a darkened naaru = believable. Bladefist was a slave who cut his hand off to free himself, then attached a blade to his wrist-end = believable. Blackrock turned their home into a sprawling section of land covered in foundries = believable. Bleeding Hollow became akin to Tarzan and the Apes = not believable. Sorry, but at some point, my disbelief suspenders have to be attached to the rest of my mental outfit. A swanky outfit, but that's another story.
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Old 07-02-2014, 12:46 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Early on I was hoping Ner'zhul's storyline would end with him being defeated, but not killed. Then the Shadowmoon Clan, freed from its forced servitude to the Iron Horde, would ally with the Alliance. Maybe even with a redeemed Ner'zhul still in charge. I thought it'd go a long way to combat the idea of "Orcs are always jerks, with or without demon blood." Instead you could point to the Shadowmoon Clan as an example of future Human-Orc cooperation.

But it seems that most recently, aside from Rulkan's small band of exiles, the entire clan has turned into void-using lunatics.
Yep. I had hope for this too. Certain orc leaders I expected it, blackband, bladefist, deadeye, but I at least expected a couple to come around and be allies to a bigger threat.
It doesn't give me much hope for grom...
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Old 07-02-2014, 03:13 AM
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It's just an AU 'verse. They'd be forgotten about thirty seconds after 6.4 anyway.
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Old 07-02-2014, 03:55 AM
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It's just an AU 'verse. They'd be forgotten about thirty seconds after 6.4 anyway.
Some might argue against that, seen as how lardaeron is a forgotten concept but SOMEONE around here loves to talk endlessly about it.
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Old 07-02-2014, 05:21 AM
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Some might argue against that, seen as how lardaeron is a forgotten concept but SOMEONE around here loves to talk endlessly about it.
Let me rephrase.

Forgotten by Blizzard.
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Old 07-02-2014, 05:44 AM
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Let me rephrase.

Forgotten by Blizzard.
wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last time.
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:10 AM
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The only good Orcs were, ironically, the Laughing Skulls. As they allied with the Alliance during the Second War.

Mogor the Ogre for best Chieftan.
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So many deluded people think their rotting Waifuchief cares for them and their faction, when every scrap of internalized narrative has made it clear for years that to Sylvanas, the entirety of the Horde - including her own people - is nothing more than a shitton of bodies to stack between herself and her final death.

And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
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Old 07-02-2014, 09:13 AM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last time.
Sadly so. I've got the sneaking suspicion that having had their day in the spotlight, Vol'jin and his Dorksp-Darkspear are going to disappear into obscurity again. But frankly, I won't shed any tears over that development.

Honestly though, If I could, I'd have the Shadowmoon aid the Alliance against the Stormreavers to get Gul'dan and co. out of the way, then pit both Shadowmoon and Stormreaver (sailors, not warlocks) against the Twilight's Hammer, while the player and Draenei focus on dealing with the Iron Horde. Limited screen time, Draenei still centre stage, perfect outcome (I think).

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The only good Orcs were, ironically, the Laughing Skulls. As they allied with the Alliance during the Second War.

Mogor the Ogre for best Chieftan.
Became chieftain of an orc clan without being an orc. That's my kind of ogre. He'll work with the Horde this time around, but it'll probably be on the same principles as his alliance with, well... The Alliance. (heh)
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Old 07-02-2014, 09:23 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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