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  #51  
Old 07-08-2014, 02:51 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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It's because Orcs are dumb and have a culture based around dumb meatheaded jockness.
It literally isn't any more complicated than this and assuming it is is giving Blizz too much credit.
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  #52  
Old 07-08-2014, 02:55 PM
EdWunclerIII EdWunclerIII is offline

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It literally isn't any more complicated than this and assuming it is is giving Blizz too much credit.
No but you don't understand they're totally just misunderstood and since they said they're sorry we can forgive them for all.
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  #53  
Old 07-08-2014, 03:10 PM
Whitrix Whitrix is offline

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No but you don't understand they're totally just misunderstood and since they said they're sorry we can forgive them for all.
That's another problem. I don't know you people but I didn't see any orc saying he's sorry. Not even Thrall. In the cinematic he just looks at Varian with an agressive look like his capital isn't invaded or something like that.

Did something good happen in War Crimes or was everything up to the Alliance to be extremely altruistic and forgiving about all the land and lives destroyed?
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  #54  
Old 07-08-2014, 03:44 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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That's another problem. I don't know you people but I didn't see any orc saying he's sorry. Not even Thrall. In the cinematic he just looks at Varian with an agressive look like his capital isn't invaded or something like that.

Did something good happen in War Crimes or was everything up to the Alliance to be extremely altruistic and forgiving about all the land and lives destroyed?
Honestly, I get the feeling turning against Garrosh was supposed to be the equivelent of apologising. And the Alliance stopped fighting because, as is said repeatedly, attacking the rest of the Horde would just mean more losses, more land lost and more attrocities. Someone, somewhere, had to make it stop.

And Fojar? I accept no arguments from someone who quotes another user saying they're right without context in their comment signature. Least of all from the likes of you. So if you have ANYthing constructive to say, now is the time. If you want to debate the nature of orcs as a whole, rather than the individuals or groups I was talking about in my OP, take it to the faction threads. I won't stand for it here.
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  #55  
Old 07-08-2014, 03:49 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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PJ says I'm right.
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  #56  
Old 07-08-2014, 03:56 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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Thumbs down

PJ isn't here. And don't play cute with me. You can read my comment. Either say something insightful or constructive or say nothing at all.
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  #57  
Old 07-08-2014, 03:57 PM
EdWunclerIII EdWunclerIII is offline

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PJ isn't here. And don't play cute with me. You can read my comment. Either say something insightful or constructive or say nothing at all.
You didn't address my point.
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  #58  
Old 07-08-2014, 04:00 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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You didn't address my point.
What was your point?
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  #59  
Old 07-08-2014, 04:01 PM
EdWunclerIII EdWunclerIII is offline

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What was your point?
That we're supposed to just forgive the orcs and let bygones be bygones because they said they're sorry or did some nice things.
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  #60  
Old 07-08-2014, 04:21 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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PJ isn't here. And don't play cute with me. You can read my comment. Either say something insightful or constructive or say nothing at all.
PJ is everywhere.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #61  
Old 07-08-2014, 04:34 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Did Fojar quote himself?
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  #62  
Old 07-08-2014, 04:57 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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PJ is everywhere.
You are right Fojar. You SHOULD click the link below to go on a PeasantQuest!

Warcraft: Peasants and Humans

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  #63  
Old 07-08-2014, 04:58 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Fojar is right.
Sigged.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #64  
Old 07-08-2014, 04:59 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Sigged.
Crud, I edited too late...
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  #65  
Old 07-08-2014, 04:59 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Crud, I edited too late...
That's fine, it's easily fixable.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #66  
Old 07-08-2014, 05:10 PM
EdWunclerIII EdWunclerIII is offline

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Fojar's got a Kanye West ego going on here.
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  #67  
Old 07-08-2014, 05:58 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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That we're supposed to just forgive the orcs and let bygones be bygones because they said they're sorry or did some nice things.
You know, that's basically been a point of ongoing debate for the war for ages. So let me ask this: with that attitude why ever have the orcs and humans stop fighting each other? You saw what happened to Daelin Proudmoore. He fought the Old Horde and saw what orcs could be like when the wrong people were leading them. When Thrall came along and tried to give his people a new lease on life while steering them away from the legacy of the Old Horde, that meant nothing to Grand Admiral Proudmoore. One orc was as bad as another in his eyes, and the only good orc was a dead orc. His zeal in fighting the orcs led to a with-us-or-against-us stance akin to the Scarlet Crusade; once his daughter suggested he may be doing the wrong thing he usurps her from command of Theramore and sends his forces against Durotar. He would later die at his daughter's hands, but not before he said this:

"Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you."

A treaty was signed after Hyjal to stop the civilians suffering. Does it really help matters to keep an attacking until either the humans or orcs are all dead?
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  #68  
Old 07-08-2014, 06:07 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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I love everyone still thinks that WoD is just time travel. Rulkan being alive should have been a big hint that this wasn't the past of our Azeroth and Draenor. If it was the past of our timeline, Thrall, the Horde, the Alliance, and quite a few characters would not exist or would be drastically different if that was were changed. Instead, we are able to jump back to this Draenor with no ill effects, no time-wimey shit to deal with. Which can mean only one thing: that it is an alternate universe with some light time-travel for flavoring.
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  #69  
Old 07-08-2014, 06:51 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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I love everyone still thinks that WoD is just time travel. Rulkan being alive should have been a big hint that this wasn't the past of our Azeroth and Draenor. If it was the past of our timeline, Thrall, the Horde, the Alliance, and quite a few characters would not exist or would be drastically different if that was were changed. Instead, we are able to jump back to this Draenor with no ill effects, no time-wimey shit to deal with. Which can mean only one thing: that it is an alternate universe with some light time-travel for flavoring.
I'm pretty sure it was made abundantly clear that Garrosh created a parallel timeline. The trouble is the explanations made no mention of how it was possible to do so; we were basically told that there is one timeline and one alone, and that one unplanned hiccup would lead the world to ruin. Garrosh going back in time and arranging for the Old Horde to come out different? That's a pretty big change if I've ever seen one. Now, if they had said Kairoz had used his powers and technology from the Timeless Isle to create an alternate timeline, that would be different. The trouble is that no good explanation was offered, and people either refused to accept the truth or got the wrong idea.
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  #70  
Old 07-08-2014, 07:21 PM
Nessy Nessy is offline

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Now, if they had said Kairoz had used his powers and technology from the Timeless Isle to create an alternate timeline, that would be different. The trouble is that no good explanation was offered, and people either refused to accept the truth or got the wrong idea.
That... is what they said. In War Crimes, Kairoz explicitly uses the Vision of Time, created using the Timeless Isle's Epoch Stones, to create an alternate Draenor and place himself and Garrosh in it. Also, in-game, Kairoz implies (to Wrathion) that the Isle's power, if harnessed, could be used to create worlds.
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  #71  
Old 07-08-2014, 07:21 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I love everyone still thinks that WoD is just time travel. Rulkan being alive should have been a big hint that this wasn't the past of our Azeroth and Draenor. If it was the past of our timeline, Thrall, the Horde, the Alliance, and quite a few characters would not exist or would be drastically different if that was were changed. Instead, we are able to jump back to this Draenor with no ill effects, no time-wimey shit to deal with. Which can mean only one thing: that it is an alternate universe with some light time-travel for flavoring.
And the Statue of Liberty is still copper colored.
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  #72  
Old 07-08-2014, 07:34 PM
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That... is what they said. In War Crimes, Kairoz explicitly uses the Vision of Time, created using the Timeless Isle's Epoch Stones, to create an alternate Draenor and place himself and Garrosh in it. Also, in-game, Kairoz implies (to Wrathion) that the Isle's power, if harnessed, could be used to create worlds.
I concede the point. It's just a shame that it had to be done in a book, one that most people will never read. The closest thing I have is a copy of The Shattering: Preclude to Cataclysm, and documentation on the book's plot has left little details readily available.

That said, I'm glad we actually have an explanation on the record.
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  #73  
Old 07-08-2014, 07:37 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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I'm pretty sure it was made abundantly clear that Garrosh created a parallel timeline. The trouble is the explanations made no mention of how it was possible to do so; we were basically told that there is one timeline and one alone, and that one unplanned hiccup would lead the world to ruin. Garrosh going back in time and arranging for the Old Horde to come out different? That's a pretty big change if I've ever seen one. Now, if they had said Kairoz had used his powers and technology from the Timeless Isle to create an alternate timeline, that would be different. The trouble is that no good explanation was offered, and people either refused to accept the truth or got the wrong idea.
But Garrosh creating an alternate timeline would not have brought Rulkan back to life. If it was just one timeline, and one alone, Garrosh would have already won the moment he escaped in War Crimes. Than there is that whole "alternate timeline Blackmoore" deal in Twilight of the Aspects, which also proves that there isn't one timeline and one alone, or else "King Blackmoore" would never have existed in the first place.

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And the Statue of Liberty is still copper colored.
What?
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  #74  
Old 07-08-2014, 07:55 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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But Garrosh creating an alternate timeline would not have brought Rulkan back to life. If it was just one timeline, and one alone, Garrosh would have already won the moment he escaped in War Crimes. Than there is that whole "alternate timeline Blackmoore" deal in Twilight of the Aspects, which also proves that there isn't one timeline and one alone, or else "King Blackmoore" would never have existed in the first place.
Okay, put it this way then: there is one "main", or better yet, one "successful" timeline. We are sent back to ensure Thrall escapes because the orcs are needed to fight the Legion. We are sent back to ensure Medivh opens the Dark Portal because, aside from the above, orcish violence is what ensures the Alliance exists, and the Horde not coming to Azeroth would not mean the Burning Legion didn't get their turn.

And since Arthas' culling of Stratholme denied the Scourge much cannon fodder and his continued existence caused the direct and indirect deaths of two prominent Dreadlord commanders: Mal'Ganis and Tichondrius. So we have to keep him alive and ensure the Scourge has its day, even knowing what that entails.

Also, we know that the Iron Horde Garrosh builds up has been preparing itself for two years. Maybe Rulkan was only dead for a few months when Ner'zhul was contacted by Kil'jaeden. Rise of the Horde didn't even tell us how she died. It's not clear how far back Garrosh went, or what exactly he did in the meantime. We know that somehow, the Shadow Council now exists concurrently with the Stormreaver clan, both under Gul'dan's jurisdiction. We know that the Warsong rule the roost instead of the Blackrock. Apart from that, and a few other technical details, nothing.
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  #75  
Old 07-08-2014, 07:57 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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Fojar's got a Kanye West ego going on here.
I'd probably call the moderators or something, if that was worth the trouble.
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