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  #26  
Old 12-16-2014, 09:12 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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1.) Always stick it to the Alliance.

2.) When in doubt follow rule #1.
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  #27  
Old 12-17-2014, 10:59 AM
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3.) If you do something and succeed, it's a worthy tactic and honourable.

4.) If your enemy does it and succeeds they're dirty cowards.
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  #28  
Old 12-17-2014, 11:56 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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5.) If it goes wrong, it's never our fault.
6.) We're always justified, but if there is a need to blame someone, have a scapegoat ready to take -all- of the blame for our actions.
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  #29  
Old 12-17-2014, 12:03 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Okay, you smart alecs who say things like "anything can be corrupted". I remind you that you are dealing with a warrior-centered life philosophy. And, whether dealing with Spartans or Mongols or Mandalorians, you are envisioning a society that can only be seen as sympathetic when someone even worse happens to be attacking them. Keeping militarism will ensure that your orcs remain villains, not because it can be corrupted, but because it is the definition.

And I'm cool with that because that keeps stories interesting. I just want to make sure you are, because it flies in the face of the peaceful shaman culture presented in the Warcraft III manual.
To be fair here, this is the warcraft universe. The orcs will never run out of things that are considered okay to kill. Just in the horde homelands, they have quilboar, harpies, raptors, bandits, demon worshippers, gnolls, mindless undead, murlocs, naga, wretched, troll mummies, felblood, rogue arcane creatures, centaur, trogg, scarlet crusaders and deviant slime within axe-throwing range. All the game needs to do to make orcish militarism justified is to act like these are the threats they'd realistically be, rather than something reserved for adventurers to deal with.

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I like the bits that emphasize freedom, fraternity, equality. You could still emphasize a self-defensive focus on military arts that prefers times of peace, and converts that combat training so that it revolves around a fit and centered existence, tying to nature and shamanism. You could glorify the hunt as part of nourishment and circle of life stuff. Of course, most of these are contrary to the glorification of battle in and of itself.
Of course, this is a possibility as well, though I think that arena fights and hunting could be tied into there to keep some glorification of battle (though obviously shifting it from warfare to personal combat.).
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  #30  
Old 12-17-2014, 12:39 PM
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Oh good, the bitchy-brigade's arrived to tell us all about the behaviour of Alliance posters.
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  #31  
Old 12-17-2014, 12:55 PM
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Oh good, the bitchy-brigade's arrived to tell us all about the behaviour of Alliance posters.
Let them have their say, and then let it echo on deaf ears. Let it hang in the silence, to be heard for what it is. Pay it no mind. It is the buzzing of a fly, the mewling of a cat in the middle of the night. Annoying, but of no consequence. Let them say what they wish to say, and then wallow in how insignificant it is. Their very words expose their impotence.
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  #32  
Old 12-17-2014, 01:21 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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This is a really interesting discussion. I like the idea of a martial-inspired "code of conduct" that would relate to/be used for peace-time negotiations, or even (indeed) an entire way of life. Fascinating.

I don't know enough to really say, but I'm leaning heavily towards "Honor" being in there somewhere. "Life/Liberty" seem pretty good, too. And teh "Fraternity" thing.

Have we considered dipartite phrasing? (e.g. "War is Peace - Freedom is Slavery - Ignorance is Knowledge") Might let us get away with squeezing more in there. (ala "Life for Honor - Blood for Blood - Bros before Hoes Family before Self")
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Canada has "Peace, Order and Good Government". France has "Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité". The United States has "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". It's not unheard of for polities to be governed through adherence to a few guiding principles which denote either rights, responsibilities or both.
Actually, that's not just 'not unheard of'; I'd argue it's a primary goal & ideal of such things to be able to be succinctified into a series of words/phrases.

Although granted I'm biased, but how is the US one not the best one? I mean, from what I can tell it covers all the bases (first you must Live (or have Life), then your Life should be free (Liberty), and then in your Free Life you should be able to Pursue Happiness (importantly, it doesn't just say "Life, Liberty, Happiness"; I'd say this is because 'being happy' isn't a right, but you do have a right to pursue whatever form of happiness you desire...). Canada and France don't even have Life. Scary implications. :<
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  #33  
Old 12-17-2014, 01:22 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Oh good, the bitchy-brigade's arrived to tell us all about the behaviour of Alliance posters.
Who? Where? I don't see anyone complaining about Alliance posters.
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  #34  
Old 12-17-2014, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
Who? Where? I don't see anyone complaining about Alliance posters.
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3.) If you do something and succeed, it's a worthy tactic and honourable.

4.) If your enemy does it and succeeds they're dirty cowards.
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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
5.) If it goes wrong, it's never our fault.
6.) We're always justified, but if there is a need to blame someone, have a scapegoat ready to take -all- of the blame for our actions.
What is that if not the perfect embodiment of the behaviour of so many posters?

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Canada and France don't even have Life. Scary implications. :<
Given that the entire premise of government is built on the lawful exercise of lethal force, including life in the motto is an inherent lie, since there must always be mechanisms built into the system which exist to take life away under specific circumstances.
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  #35  
Old 12-17-2014, 05:21 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
What is that if not the perfect embodiment of the behaviour of so many posters?



Given that the entire premise of government is built on the lawful exercise of lethal force, including life in the motto is an inherent lie, since there must always be mechanisms built into the system which exist to take life away under specific circumstances.


It's the attitude of the orcs in game and in the lore, who we are talking about... They rarely take responsibility for anything they do and feel justified in doing whatever they want to sate their needs (Orgrim's justification for the Second War)

It's life for their citizens. All nations are allowed to kill to protect their citizens, self defense isn't forbidden.
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  #36  
Old 12-17-2014, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
All nations are allowed to kill to protect their citizens
Exactly.

Because built into every single political power since the dawn of time are the mechanisms which allow the basic rights of citizens to be revoked. It's why the concept of martial law exists. It's why the existence of situations which justify the suspension of basic rights is built into your constitution (Not just the United States constitution, but every one on the planet). Every single political system in the world contains mechanisms by which it can lawfully destroy the life of its citizenry to preserve.

No political system in the entirety of history can claim an absolute protection of life, even of its own people.

Edit: But I digress. This doesn't have anything to do with any hypothetical model the Orcs might have to guide the way they govern and make their laws.

Last edited by Kellick; 12-17-2014 at 08:48 PM..
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  #37  
Old 12-18-2014, 05:28 AM
Uzlag Thunderfist Uzlag Thunderfist is offline

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What about peons ? It is my idea that they are a product of the "clan survival" mentality of the orcs applied to the far greater scale of the Horde :

All those who can fight have to, in order to conquer ressources and eliminate threats againts the whole Horde

All those who can't fight have to be useful in a way or another. Thus, be they impaired (physicaly or mentaly) or just plain weaklings, peons work endlessly. It is their duty to produce what warriors don't have the time to do, while being protected by them. And as they can't survive on their own, they are viewed as inferiors.

I don't like all the recent bullshit about "muh family" and egality amongst the Horde which originated from Vol'Jin and Thrall, it is way too modern (and american) in my opinion for a bunch of clans who were still living like cavemen lesser than half a century ago.

Everyone has it's place among the Horde, in order to make it works, and an honor code would be something that legitimize this order and those status, I think.

"No, silly little peon, you can't take an axe and become a warrior, you are too weak and frail, now get back to work before I broke your arm."

Now, if the peon have the guts to take an axe and butcher his taskmaster, I'd think he could move up to the warrior's ranks : he demonstrated that he was strong enough to handle himself and to respond to humiliation and threat by violence, making him worthy of bearing arms for the Horde.
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  #38  
Old 12-18-2014, 05:41 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Peons inherited the wrong ogre qualities. Poor beasties.
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  #39  
Old 12-18-2014, 07:49 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
All nations are allowed to kill to protect their citizens, self defense isn't forbidden.
I disagree. Some nations and their citizens deserve to die. Any attempt to defend them should only result in them being killed faster. Or slower with more flavorful and imaginative manners of death.
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  #40  
Old 12-18-2014, 08:45 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Exactly.

Because built into every single political power since the dawn of time are the mechanisms which allow the basic rights of citizens to be revoked. It's why the concept of martial law exists. It's why the existence of situations which justify the suspension of basic rights is built into your constitution (Not just the United States constitution, but every one on the planet). Every single political system in the world contains mechanisms by which it can lawfully destroy the life of its citizenry to preserve.

No political system in the entirety of history can claim an absolute protection of life, even of its own people.

Edit: But I digress. This doesn't have anything to do with any hypothetical model the Orcs might have to guide the way they govern and make their laws.
However they don't have the right to attack/invade another nation or nations because those nations have something they want/need to survive. So no orc justification to invade Ashenvale because they 'need' the resources of Ashenvale to feed their people.

Quote:
I disagree. Some nations and their citizens deserve to die. Any attempt to defend them should only result in them being killed faster. Or slower with more flavorful and imaginative manners of death.
As a nation they still have the right of self defense. Even if you don't like them, they still have that right.
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  #41  
Old 12-18-2014, 08:49 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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However they don't have the right to attack/invade another nation or nations because those nations have something they want/need to survive. So no orc justification to invade Ashenvale because they 'need' the resources of Ashenvale to feed their people.
I'm not talking about war. I'm talking about governments killing their own people. Every government has laws which determine when it's allowed to kill its own people.

Did you completely miss the bit where I said
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But I digress. This doesn't have anything to do with any hypothetical model the Orcs might have to guide the way they govern and make their laws.
?

It was a one-off on the inclusion of life in life liberty and the pursuit of happiness as an inherently misleading premise, and had nothing to do with the subject of the thread.
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  #42  
Old 12-18-2014, 11:10 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
As a nation they still have the right of self defense. Even if you don't like them, they still have that right.
This is more or less where I feel like orcs ought to go, as an orc fan. They've stepped on too many toes. They've made to many mistakes. Whether or not they wish to turn over a new leaf, there will always be those who won't trust them, who will not forgive, and who will seek vengeance against them. They should accept this acknowledge this, and exercise their right to self defense, complete with the knowledge that if they die then their debts are paid (they should accept their deaths when they come, but they don't have to go quietly, don't have to take it lying down).

I think this outlook would suit the Bleeding Hollow well. This could be their contribution to the code.

Of course, the Warsong outlook is incompatible with this idea of death. They go into death kicking and thrashing.

Perhaps it's the balance between. The Bleeding Hollow give you the strength coming from accepting your death at the appointed time, but you still can face it kicking and thrashing, fighting to the bitter end. Is it possible to honor both ideas?
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  #43  
Old 12-19-2014, 12:05 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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This is more or less where I feel like orcs ought to go, as an orc fan. They've stepped on too many toes. They've made to many mistakes. Whether or not they wish to turn over a new leaf, there will always be those who won't trust them, who will not forgive, and who will seek vengeance against them. They should accept this acknowledge this, and exercise their right to self defense, complete with the knowledge that if they die then their debts are paid (they should accept their deaths when they come, but they don't have to go quietly, don't have to take it lying down).

I think this outlook would suit the Bleeding Hollow well. This could be their contribution to the code.

Of course, the Warsong outlook is incompatible with this idea of death. They go into death kicking and thrashing.

Perhaps it's the balance between. The Bleeding Hollow give you the strength coming from accepting your death at the appointed time, but you still can face it kicking and thrashing, fighting to the bitter end. Is it possible to honor both ideas?
Absolutely.


EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uzlag Thunderfist View Post
"No, silly little peon, you can't take an axe and become a warrior, you are too weak and frail, now get back to work before I broke your arm."

Now, if the peon have the guts to take an axe and butcher his taskmaster, I'd think he could move up to the warrior's ranks : he demonstrated that he was strong enough to handle himself and to respond to humiliation and threat by violence, making him worthy of bearing arms for the Horde.
I'd think that the peons and other folks on the low end of things would be given the chance to prove themselves before they're shut down, probably at monthly or yearly ceremonies of some sort, if their ability to move up doesn't become apparent in day to day life.

Honestly though I was surprised that peons seem to be treated like a sub-breed rather than just normal orcs that happen to be uneducated and such, since if that were the case Thrall's focus on having a stable society for the orcs would eventually have reduced peon numbers to the point that they could start bringing in labor from other groups.

"peon" would no longer be small weak orcs, it'd be anyone from any race that's too dumb or weak to have a proper position.

I imagine in a more 'modern' Horde if peons weren't a genetic thing, it'd largely be Hozen, hobgoblins, and gnolls, that made up the majority of 'peons'. Maybe Troggs if the ones in Ragefire hadn't all been killed.
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  #44  
Old 12-19-2014, 07:21 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uzlag Thunderfist View Post
What about peons ? It is my idea that they are a product of the "clan survival" mentality of the orcs applied to the far greater scale of the Horde :

All those who can fight have to, in order to conquer ressources and eliminate threats againts the whole Horde

All those who can't fight have to be useful in a way or another. Thus, be they impaired (physicaly or mentaly) or just plain weaklings, peons work endlessly. It is their duty to produce what warriors don't have the time to do, while being protected by them. And as they can't survive on their own, they are viewed as inferiors.

I don't like all the recent bullshit about "muh family" and egality amongst the Horde which originated from Vol'Jin and Thrall, it is way too modern (and american) in my opinion for a bunch of clans who were still living like cavemen lesser than half a century ago.

Everyone has it's place among the Horde, in order to make it works, and an honor code would be something that legitimize this order and those status, I think.

"No, silly little peon, you can't take an axe and become a warrior, you are too weak and frail, now get back to work before I broke your arm."

Now, if the peon have the guts to take an axe and butcher his taskmaster, I'd think he could move up to the warrior's ranks : he demonstrated that he was strong enough to handle himself and to respond to humiliation and threat by violence, making him worthy of bearing arms for the Horde.
The WCII:ToD Official Strategy Guide was never truly canon, but it has an entertaining interpretation of how some peons were made. From the walkthrough for Mission 1:

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Originally Posted by Utok Scratcher
Feeding ourselves after the long voyage across the Great Sea was necessary to keep our forces from killing each other over what little meat we had brought with us. Therefore, we beat an injured soldier into submission, made him a worker, and began fencing in new Pig Farms.
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  #45  
Old 12-19-2014, 07:41 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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''Might makes right'' should be the orc code because it's at least honest. Their so called honor never made sense to me. I don't see how killing defenseless innocents and weaker warriors is honorable. This is available for every ''noble barbarian'' group in fiction for me. It all boils down to bloody murder and honor is a shitty excuse to white wash your crimes.
If the lore addressed that most orcs are dumb as bricks, and that's why they have such skewed honor, it would be great. But it doesn't. You just have to pretend it's that.

Last edited by SmokeBlader; 12-19-2014 at 07:45 AM..
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  #46  
Old 12-19-2014, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
''Might makes right'' should be the orc code because it's at least honest. Their so called honor never made sense to me. I don't see how killing defenseless innocents and weaker warriors is honorable. This is available for every ''noble barbarian'' group in fiction for me. It all boils down to bloody murder and honor is a shitty excuse to white wash your crimes.
If the lore addressed that most orcs are dumb as bricks, and that's why they have such skewed honor, it would be great. But it doesn't. You just have to pretend it's that.
It is a code born during the orcs' time as losers. In a world as #savage as Draenor, death lurks around every corner. Innocents and weaker warriors, what is that? Dying a warriors death to protect home and family, how could they not view this as honorable?

In time, the orcs formed their Horde and won battle after battle, forgetting how defeat feels. When they started losing again, orcs could not deal. That's why everybody else is honorless scum.
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  #47  
Old 12-19-2014, 07:59 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Except this time they invaded a world. And that's where the whole thing falls apart. Their logic of ''How dare these humans defend themselves when we invade their lands'' is truly baffling.
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  #48  
Old 12-19-2014, 08:02 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Except this time they invaded a world. And that's where the whole thing falls apart. Their logic of ''How dare these humans defend themselves when we invade their lands'' is truly baffling.
They have to think that way and are inclined to do so due to their upbringing. The code only works if they're the good guys. The humans are just another douche that stands in the way of their survival, like the Breakers, Primals, ogres, arakkoa and draenei.

Last edited by Nazja; 12-19-2014 at 08:07 AM..
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  #49  
Old 12-19-2014, 08:06 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Eh. I prefer the orks type of orcs these days. At least they're honest.
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  #50  
Old 12-19-2014, 08:21 AM
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Eh. I prefer the orks type of orcs these days. At least they're honest.
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