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  #51  
Old 12-19-2014, 12:00 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Given that the entire premise of government is built on the lawful exercise of lethal force, including life in the motto is an inherent lie, since there must always be mechanisms built into the system which exist to take life away under specific circumstances.
I'm sorry, what? I've not heard that before. Isn't the "entire premise of government" to govern, i.e. "conduct the policy, actions, and affairs of (a state, organization, or people)"? Sure, capital punishments are a part of that, but...

Anyway, for the sake of argument, it could be said (in a government with a motto such as this) that those ideals only apply to citizens so governed; that once a citizen acts in such a way as to invalidate his citizenry (i.e. gross crime), they are no longer under the government's protection of their rights.
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  #52  
Old 12-19-2014, 03:30 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
They have to think that way and are inclined to do so due to their upbringing. The code only works if they're the good guys. The humans are just another douche that stands in the way of their survival, like the Breakers, Primals, ogres, arakkoa and draenei.
It doesn't work when you take the Draenei into account. For at least 200 years or more, the orcs did have a working, if distant relationship with the Draenei and didn't fight them. They are capable of trade and not mindlessly following the 'might makes right' BS. And after 40 years of exposure to the races of Azeroth, many who do work together without conquest in mind, under the rule of law, keeping them to the 'might makes right' honor code makes the Alliance and the rest of Azeroth pretty fucking stupid for keeping the orcs alive since under that honor code, the orc WILL attack the Alliance again sooner than later because the orcs are too fucking stupid to change.
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  #53  
Old 12-19-2014, 05:05 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Kyn I think the problem is that we're treating the orcs political decisions as if they were real but the reality is they're part of the plot of a video game and they were handed the conflict ball, earlier stuff just is not going to make a lot of sense when subjected to scrutiny, so all we can do is handwave it and plan out newer stuff that makes more sense, then hope for the best.
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  #54  
Old 12-19-2014, 05:06 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Kynrid always uses real life politics in arguments about fictional worlds. It's actually amusing.
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  #55  
Old 12-19-2014, 05:10 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Kynrid always uses real life politics in arguments about fictional worlds. It's actually amusing.
Its one of the things that doesn't make sense to me in a lot of discussions about characters and nations here.

Whether its right or wrong in the loreplot is separate from whether it makes any sense from a literary view.
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  #56  
Old 12-19-2014, 07:35 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Unless its retconned out, the earlier stupid shit is still lore so trying to create an orc honor code needs to take that into account.

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Kynrid always uses real life politics in arguments about fictional worlds. It's actually amusing.
Everyone does, some more than most. Mainly because real life politics and actions and history are the only comparisons we have.

Last edited by Kynrind; 12-19-2014 at 07:45 PM..
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  #57  
Old 12-19-2014, 07:44 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Unless its retconned out, the earlier stupid shit is still lore so trying to create an orc honor code needs to take that into account.
Only ifvit were contemporary with that stuff
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  #58  
Old 12-19-2014, 07:54 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Only ifvit were contemporary with that stuff
I have no idea what 'ifvit' means. Goggle brings up nothing. But even when we talk about what sort of honor code the orcs have, need to have, we're still comparing it to the honor codes we have on Earth. So its not just politics we're comparing stuff too.
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  #59  
Old 12-19-2014, 08:04 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I have no idea what 'ifvit' means. Goggle brings up nothing. But even when we talk about what sort of honor code the orcs have, need to have, we're still comparing it to the honor codes we have on Earth. So its not just politics we're comparing stuff too.
Meant to type "If it"

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  #60  
Old 12-19-2014, 11:02 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Ifvit actually sounds like a pretty interesting name. If nobody wants it, I think I'll take it.
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  #61  
Old 12-20-2014, 01:23 AM
Galka Galka is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
It is a code born during the orcs' time as losers. In a world as #savage as Draenor, death lurks around every corner. Innocents and weaker warriors, what is that? Dying a warriors death to protect home and family, how could they not view this as honorable?

In time, the orcs formed their Horde and won battle after battle, forgetting how defeat feels. When they started losing again, orcs could not deal. That's why everybody else is honorless scum.
In addition to this, think about another aspect of Orcish culture during the time of their honor's formation: minus the brutal ogres, most of the Orc clans never encountered that many intelligent species (or at least sentient enough to form civilization).

Their honor is to conquer, might makes right, and do whatever it takes to provide for your family even if it means taking it from someone else forcefully. However, if their enemies are primarily talbuk and wolves and other non-sentient creatures, it'd be a lot easier for them to justify conquering. Maybe their honor code is just the result of little contact with other civilization to make them realize that it isn't acceptable when applied to other intelligent life.
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  #62  
Old 12-20-2014, 02:25 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Ifvit actually sounds like a pretty interesting name. If nobody wants it, I think I'll take it.
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  #63  
Old 12-20-2014, 12:13 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Absolutely.



You know, thinking about it, those two Warlords, with their differing outlooks on death, are the last two left. We might be able to explore that balance and dichotomy in more detail.
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