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  #226  
Old 12-07-2017, 07:32 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Alright - Let's talk 7.3.5. Specifically, the datamined audio for Tyrande, Thalyssra, and Liadrin, as well as the accompanied unvoiced line that may or may not be making it into the game about Thalyssra wanting to test her skills in Ashenvale.

Don't get me wrong, when someone held a gun up to the collective heads of the Nightborne and said "pick a faction" - the Horde is the obvious choice. The Sin'dorei are culturally and historically similar. But that's not the reason given. Instead we get what I can only imagine is a harrowing flashback to Tyrande asking "how do I know you're not going to become a magically addled mass murderer?" and Thalyssra reacting to that by saying that the Alliance is too "cloistered".

..... 'how dare you not let me be a horrible mass murdering dictator'? Or was it, 'how dare you try to obtain some basic assurance that I not become a horrible mass murdering dictator'? I feel like I'm listening to North Korea.

Of course, as entertaining as it is to just stop on the idea that you could plausibly torture the Nightborne by making them listen to every Ronald Reagan speech that includes the phrase 'trust but verify' on a loop, Clockwork Orange style, I'm leaving out that Thalyssra implies that the Kal'dorei did not pursue further diplomatic relations with the Nightborne after Suramar. I want you to keep that in mind, because I'll come back to it later.

That mentioned, let's bring up Liadrin, who out of nowhere joins the "fuck the Night Elves train", claiming, bizarrely, that the Night Elves hid in their burrows and their trees while things were happening on the other continent. Did she forget that the East wasn't then in contact with Kalimdor? Would she apply that same logic to the society of Nightborne who literally lived in a bubble for ten-thousand years?


These leaps don't bother me so much though as does the continuation of yet another trend, and that's why I've put this commentary in this particular thread. In Cataclysm we saw something similar, with the Night Elves being lambasted for not accepting the unique and special responsibility of being a sort of Orc welfare system. Bear in mind, I don't fault Cataclysm for this, necessarily. I disagree with the reason for going to war and maintain that Orcs had alternatives, but I can see how a reasonable person would start a conflict over this. This could have been a great backdrop to the conflict if not for one thing...

The Night Elves never got a fair hearing for their side of the issue. Taking it further - there has never been an unapologetic, let alone sympathetic, declaration of the Night Elven ideology.

The closest thing we got in Cataclysm was Leyara, who was motivated by grief, not principle, and who also suffered from the problem of being introduced immediately as a villain who wanted to end the world. Other than that we got the druid guy who impotently cried that the Horde hated beauty when they blew up Thal'darah - which along the continuum of revenge speeches, especially given that this is the race that gave Warcraft the Wardens, landed about as effectively as Jeb Bush's presidential run.

Even Tyrande's short story could not be bothered to permit comment on that rather notable invasion of the Kaldorei homeland. Rather we got (surprise surprise) another story of loss where victory is defined as "hey.... it could have been worse" that didn't even involve the Horde.

.... and this is frankly annoying... the Kaldorei have good reasons to defend their borders. They have good reasons to distrust magic, and they have good reasons to be suspicious. Rather than letting the Kal'dorei communicate to the player what those reasons are, however, they're instead constantly portrayed as self-righteous bigots. As if to confirm that, it is implied that the Kal'dorei don't even do the logical thing and attempt to maintain diplomatic relations with the Nightborne. They WILL bring in the Highborne for presumably class balance reasons only, but they won't even consider the Nightborne who they just helped? It's hard for me to justify this as anything other than another peg in this particular board.

The one golden exception that I will cherish forever was the interaction between the Warden and the Demon Hunter in the Vault of the Wardens dungeon. You hear both sides, they are both presented fairly, and the content then trusts the player to figure out where they line up. That sort of thing adds depth to conflict, and leaves both sides in some sense feeling fulfilled.

The playable faction by and large though doesn't get this. They are portrayed unsympathetically, which, in combination with everything else, leaves the player character lacking identity, purpose, pride, or any hope for success or redemption. Tell me then, why would anyone, if Warcraft III didn't exist, want to represent a Night Elf? Not play them for the racials, I mean to carry their banner and say 'I identify with this, I want to see this succeed'?

To end this long and rambling matter.... I do want to point out as well that this too, is a trend - and again to all of the optimists who are hoping against hope that the burning of Teldrassil will for some reason bring about a Kal'dorei renaissance: it's a demonstration that the same trends that destroyed the Kaldorei in the first place are in full swing in 2017.
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  #227  
Old 12-08-2017, 07:29 AM
Mending Mending is offline

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Yeah, after Kosak joined Hearthstone, I never thought I’d see the night elves experience another Cata or MoP, but here we are~

About the hope for a night elf renaissance, after witnessing what came of the Gilnean “renaissance,” the Darkspear “renaissance,” and the gnomish “renaissance,” I’m not holding out for any grand development for the night elves. Especially in bofa, where we’ll be spending our time in Kul Tiras and Zandalar.
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  #228  
Old 12-08-2017, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Alright - Let's talk 7.3.5. Specifically, the datamined audio for Tyrande, Thalyssra, and Liadrin, as well as the accompanied unvoiced line that may or may not be making it into the game about Thalyssra wanting to test her skills in Ashenvale.

Don't get me wrong, when someone held a gun up to the collective heads of the Nightborne and said "pick a faction" - the Horde is the obvious choice. The Sin'dorei are culturally and historically similar. But that's not the reason given. Instead we get what I can only imagine is a harrowing flashback to Tyrande asking "how do I know you're not going to become a magically addled mass murderer?" and Thalyssra reacting to that by saying that the Alliance is too "cloistered".

..... 'how dare you not let me be a horrible mass murdering dictator'? Or was it, 'how dare you try to obtain some basic assurance that I not become a horrible mass murdering dictator'? I feel like I'm listening to North Korea.

Of course, as entertaining as it is to just stop on the idea that you could plausibly torture the Nightborne by making them listen to every Ronald Reagan speech that includes the phrase 'trust but verify' on a loop, Clockwork Orange style, I'm leaving out that Thalyssra implies that the Kal'dorei did not pursue further diplomatic relations with the Nightborne after Suramar. I want you to keep that in mind, because I'll come back to it later.

That mentioned, let's bring up Liadrin, who out of nowhere joins the "fuck the Night Elves train", claiming, bizarrely, that the Night Elves hid in their burrows and their trees while things were happening on the other continent. Did she forget that the East wasn't then in contact with Kalimdor? Would she apply that same logic to the society of Nightborne who literally lived in a bubble for ten-thousand years?


These leaps don't bother me so much though as does the continuation of yet another trend, and that's why I've put this commentary in this particular thread. In Cataclysm we saw something similar, with the Night Elves being lambasted for not accepting the unique and special responsibility of being a sort of Orc welfare system. Bear in mind, I don't fault Cataclysm for this, necessarily. I disagree with the reason for going to war and maintain that Orcs had alternatives, but I can see how a reasonable person would start a conflict over this. This could have been a great backdrop to the conflict if not for one thing...

The Night Elves never got a fair hearing for their side of the issue. Taking it further - there has never been an unapologetic, let alone sympathetic, declaration of the Night Elven ideology.

The closest thing we got in Cataclysm was Leyara, who was motivated by grief, not principle, and who also suffered from the problem of being introduced immediately as a villain who wanted to end the world. Other than that we got the druid guy who impotently cried that the Horde hated beauty when they blew up Thal'darah - which along the continuum of revenge speeches, especially given that this is the race that gave Warcraft the Wardens, landed about as effectively as Jeb Bush's presidential run.

Even Tyrande's short story could not be bothered to permit comment on that rather notable invasion of the Kaldorei homeland. Rather we got (surprise surprise) another story of loss where victory is defined as "hey.... it could have been worse" that didn't even involve the Horde.

.... and this is frankly annoying... the Kaldorei have good reasons to defend their borders. They have good reasons to distrust magic, and they have good reasons to be suspicious. Rather than letting the Kal'dorei communicate to the player what those reasons are, however, they're instead constantly portrayed as self-righteous bigots. As if to confirm that, it is implied that the Kal'dorei don't even do the logical thing and attempt to maintain diplomatic relations with the Nightborne. They WILL bring in the Highborne for presumably class balance reasons only, but they won't even consider the Nightborne who they just helped? It's hard for me to justify this as anything other than another peg in this particular board.

The one golden exception that I will cherish forever was the interaction between the Warden and the Demon Hunter in the Vault of the Wardens dungeon. You hear both sides, they are both presented fairly, and the content then trusts the player to figure out where they line up. That sort of thing adds depth to conflict, and leaves both sides in some sense feeling fulfilled.

The playable faction by and large though doesn't get this. They are portrayed unsympathetically, which, in combination with everything else, leaves the player character lacking identity, purpose, pride, or any hope for success or redemption. Tell me then, why would anyone, if Warcraft III didn't exist, want to represent a Night Elf? Not play them for the racials, I mean to carry their banner and say 'I identify with this, I want to see this succeed'?

To end this long and rambling matter.... I do want to point out as well that this too, is a trend - and again to all of the optimists who are hoping against hope that the burning of Teldrassil will for some reason bring about a Kal'dorei renaissance: it's a demonstration that the same trends that destroyed the Kaldorei in the first place are in full swing in 2017.
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  #229  
Old 12-10-2017, 08:21 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Maybe Ashenvale should have never been playable? Like how the Scourge is enemy to neutral only.
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  #230  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:28 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Maybe Ashenvale should have never been playable? Like how the Scourge is enemy to neutral only.
I'm a bit confused. So, excuse this reply being longer than it should have been.

If you mean that Night Elves shouldn't have been playable - I think that's a cop out. The Night Elves had a ton to offer to the Alliance other than warm bodies to put in blue tabards - or at the most distinctive they've been allowed to be in WoW, the army o'archers as opposed to the mix of forces we had in Warcraft III.

If you mean that there should never have been a conflict in Ashenvale, I can't agree with that either. The Night Elves did eventually win Ashenvale during Cata/MOP, but the presentation of any victories was either not there or spun to look like a loss.

What I don't like about either of these arguments is that they presume that the writers just had no choice to present things that way - and no one has ever told me why that is - they've just said that it is. In the meantime though: this is just a cop out to me.
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  #231  
Old 12-10-2017, 04:05 PM
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or at the most distinctive they've been allowed to be in WoW, the army o'archers as opposed to the mix of forces we had in Warcraft III.
http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/568507.jpg

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  #232  
Old 12-10-2017, 05:26 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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You can accuse me accurately of being hyperbolic when I called it an "army o'archers", but you aren't showing me anything new here. Night Elves in WoW have had minor ancients, glaive throwers, and huntresses turn up from vanilla until today - all units you could find in the first tier of the Warcraft III tech tree.

Hippogryphs are the exception, but only because cities required aerial guards. You won't see hippogryph riders in action in the same way that you'll see, say, gyrocopters. That exception aside, it takes a lot of stuff off the table, stuff that underlined the Night Elves' connection with nature and how that translated into their military. Those units also filled a lot of gaps that the other forces had and still have. (Example - if you were attacking the Mor'shan Rampart in the RTS, you might use mountain giants or chimaera supported by hippogryph riders and other appropriate escorts. If you're attacking it in WoW, you tell lightly armored skirmishers to leap into the open and try to kill ground defenders).

Getting back to the post that you were replying to though - I would figure that working with the Alliance would allow for some iteration on some of these concepts. If wisps can grow structures and heal things like glaive throwers and Night Elven vessels for example, what would that concept look like when applied to say - a Skyfire class battleship (or whatever they're calling it)? What if Night Elven druids were used to grow hedges or fields of bramble to be used in the same way as barbed wire was used in World War I? (We got a tiny bit of this in the Krasarang campaign) There are a lot of possibilities here that just fell by the wayside under the desire to paint everything blue.
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  #233  
Old 12-10-2017, 05:39 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Hippogryphs are the exception, but only because cities required aerial guards. You won't see hippogryph riders in action in the same way that you'll see, say, gyrocopters. That exception aside, it takes a lot of stuff off the table, stuff that underlined the Night Elves' connection with nature and how that translated into their military. Those units also filled a lot of gaps that the other forces had and still have. (Example - if you were attacking the Mor'shan Rampart in the RTS, you might use mountain giants or chimaera supported by hippogryph riders and other appropriate escorts. If you're attacking it in WoW, you tell lightly armored skirmishers to leap into the open and try to kill ground defenders).
It can be argued that chimeras and mountain giants are allies form nature that were called to battle the Legion, and not necessarily to serve night elf political ambitions.
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  #234  
Old 12-10-2017, 05:49 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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It can be argued that chimeras and mountain giants are allies form nature that were called to battle the Legion, and not necessarily to serve night elf political ambitions.
IIRC, that's the canonical reason confirmed by "word of god". It's inconsistent with the fact that they were used in the Frozen Throne expansion when there was a lot of uncertainty over who or what they were fighting (and the Mountain Giants were of course, expansion specific units), but that was the reason they gave.

What I'm saying is that I disagree with the writers' call to make it the reason - or to remove those units at all.
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  #235  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:24 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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IIRC, that's the canonical reason confirmed by "word of god". It's inconsistent with the fact that they were used in the Frozen Throne expansion when there was a lot of uncertainty over who or what they were fighting (and the Mountain Giants were of course, expansion specific units), but that was the reason they gave.

What I'm saying is that I disagree with the writers' call to make it the reason - or to remove those units at all.
Yes, chimaeras is a bit of a weird situation.

Mountain giants aren't. It was explained, even in TFT that the Legion's invasion woke them up. Malfurion brought them along for the ride during their hunt for Illidan.

Personally I think it would have been better if Blizzard came up with new units for WoW. It would have actually expanded night elves instead of having them rely on welfare allies.
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  #236  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:32 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Yes, chimaeras is a bit of a weird situation.

Mountain giants aren't. It was explained, even in TFT that the Legion's invasion woke them up. Malfurion brought them along for the ride during their hunt for Illidan.

Personally I think it would have been better if Blizzard came up with new units for WoW. It would have actually expanded night elves instead of having them rely on welfare allies.
I wouldn't necessarily mind new units either. I mean.... I still have an unhealthy attachment to chimaera, but the idea of a druidic society, as the Night Elves expressed it, that nevertheless doesn't necessarily have a problem with new technology (the Wardens certainly didn't have a problem with hoarding goblin land mines, and depending on whether the player found them or not, Tyrande certainly didn't have an issue with using them) could have opened up a lot of possibilities within the Alliance.
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  #237  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:44 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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The thing is, night elf "political ambitions" are disproportionately the same thing as keeping the land from being defiled and ruined by invaders, which falls squarely into the category of "stuff their Nature allies should really care enough about to help them prevent."

The mountain giants, chimeras and such not caring about kaldorei military actions in Pandaria, the EK or Suramar is one thing; their WoW-long absence from night elf struggles in places like Ashenvale, Stonetalon and Azshara to prevent the Horde rampaging across Kalimdor makes a lot less sense, considering the Horde's consistent precedent for bludgeoning, chopping and burning the land to death wherever it takes over.

If they'd stuck with the Horde of WC3 there would be some justification for Nature calming down and these creatures wandering off. Except Blizz's hardon for constantly devolving the orcs back into a death metal album cover that rapes Nature for fun means that for all intents and purposes the Legion never left, and the wild protectors of Nature should damned well be doing something about the green maniacs who keep trying to destroy the forests.
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  #238  
Old 12-10-2017, 08:36 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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It's been a while since I played so forgive me if I don't remember everything. As far as I know the closest thing to defiling Ashenvale the Horde has done is logging. That is fairly contained to the edge so it's not like they are trucking through Ashenvale cutting down all the trees in sight.

Azshara would be a fair point but there wasn't been any real night elf presence since the game was released.

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  #239  
Old 12-10-2017, 08:44 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
It's been a while since I played so forgive me if I don't remember everything. As far as I know the closest thing to defiling Ashenvale the Horde has done is logging. That is fairly contained to the edge so it's not like they are trucking through Ashenvale cutting down all the trees in sight.

Azshara would be a fair point but there wasn't been any real night elf presence since the game was released.
Merely logging Ashenvale was enough to provoke the Night Elves the first time around.
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  #240  
Old 12-10-2017, 08:51 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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It's been a while since I played so forgive me if I don't remember everything. As far as I know the closest thing to defiling Ashenvale the Horde has done is logging. That is fairly contained to the edge so it's not like they are trucking through Ashenvale cutting down all the trees in sight.

Azshara would be a fair point but there wasn't been any real night elf presence since the game was released.
It's contained to the edge where they've been contained to up to this point, as their gains in Cataclysm were mostly driven back before they could settle in. Except that's about to no longer be the case, and we saw clearly in Stonetalon and Azshara what they cavalierly do to new lands they manage to claim.

The comparatively smaller night elf presence in Azshara doesn't change the fact that as soon as the Horde had uncontested control of most of the region, they promptly started wrecking the place. In fact the absence of a large-scale night elf threat to fend off there makes it less justified, because it means instead of making a mess as they dug in to defend themselves, they just fucked up the region because they could and nobody was around who could stop them.
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  #241  
Old 12-10-2017, 09:23 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Merely logging Ashenvale was enough to provoke the Night Elves the first time around.
It's not like mountain giants and chimaeras care about trees to consider it defilement.
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It's contained to the edge where they've been contained to up to this point, as their gains in Cataclysm were mostly driven back before they could settle in. Except that's about to no longer be the case, and we saw clearly in Stonetalon and Azshara what they cavalierly do to new lands they manage to claim.

The comparatively smaller night elf presence in Azshara doesn't change the fact that as soon as the Horde had uncontested control of most of the region, they promptly started wrecking the place. In fact the absence of a large-scale night elf threat to fend off there makes it less justified, because it means instead of making a mess as they dug in to defend themselves, they just fucked up the region because they could and nobody was around who could stop them.
Night elf presence matters when we are talking about why their nature allies aren't helping them. There wasn't any major attack on nature in Stonetalon. The changes in Azshara didn't have night elves around for it to matter, let alone calling any allies.

There are also various locations within Horde control that aren't messed with.

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  #242  
Old 12-10-2017, 09:54 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
It's not like mountain giants and chimaeras care about trees to consider it defilement.


Night elf presence matters when we are talking about why their nature allies aren't helping them. There wasn't any major attack on nature in Stonetalon. The changes in Azshara didn't have night elves around for it to matter, let alone calling any allies.

There are also various locations within Horde control that aren't messed with.
What are you talking about? Even Garrosh got pissed off about the damage they were doing to the land throughout Stonetalon. Even aside from that huge bomb going off at Thal'darah, they were deliberately burning the forest down in the Fold, spilling oil all over the place with their drilling rigs and continuing the deforestation the Venture Company had previously started.

Moreover, it's standard procedure for Horde quests against the night elves to have the players deliberately go out of their way to kill or corrupt defenders of Nature to either get them out of the way or steal their power.

And yeah, they tend to manage not to lay waste to places that were already desolate and barren when they got there.

It doesn't matter insofar as their behavior in Azshara establishes what they're going to do when they get their hands on everything else. The clear and present threat they pose to the land should have Nature itself rising up to rive them back in every way it can. Especially in Azshara, which was full of mountain giants and furbolgs and hippogryphs who apparently just stood by and watched while the goblins wrecked the place (so we could have an obnoxious, unfunny eyesore on the world map that serves no useful purpose.)

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  #243  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:13 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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It's not like mountain giants and chimaeras care about trees to consider it defilement.
Chimaera did if the Warcraft III orc campaign was any indication - and the mountain giants had no way of knowing what they were called out to help with.
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Old 12-10-2017, 10:15 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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What are you talking about? Even Garrosh got pissed off about the damage they were doing to the land throughout Stonetalon. Even aside from that huge bomb going off at Thal'darah, they were deliberately burning the forest down in the Fold, spilling oil all over the place with their drilling rigs and continuing the deforestation the Venture Company had previously started.

Moreover, it's standard procedure for Horde quests against the night elves to have the players deliberately go out of their way to kill or corrupt defenders of Nature to either get them out of the way or steal their power.

And yeah, they tend to manage not to lay waste to places that were already desolate and barren when they got there.

It doesn't matter insofar as their behavior in Azshara establishes what they're going to do when they get their hands on everything else. The clear and present threat they pose to the land should have Nature itself rising up to rive them back in every way it can. Especially in Azshara, which was full of mountain giants and furbolgs and hippogryphs who apparently just stood by and watched while the goblins wrecked the place (so we could have an obnoxious, unfunny eyesore on the world map that serves no useful purpose.)
Okay, the only thing I really remember about Stonetalon is the bombing and the following execution of the orc in charge.

Barrens is still healthy, Mulgore and Feralas remain fairly untouched.

It still doesn't matter what happened to Azshara. We are talking about why mountain giants and chimaeras aren't in the current night elf military line up. If night elves aren't around to defend Azshara, then their nature allies wouldn't be there to help them defend it.

It would be reasonable to assume the Azshara natives fought back, but that's not the same as them being in the night elf military.

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  #245  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:18 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Okay, the only thing I really remember about Stonetalon is the bombing and the following execution of the orc in charge.

Barrens is still healthy, Mulgore and Feralas remain fairly untouched.

It still doesn't matter what happened to Azshara. We are talking about why mountain giants and chimaeras aren't in the current night elf military line up. if night elves aren't around to defend Azshara, then their nature allies wouldn't be there to help them defend it.
The Horde side Azshara quests frequently feature the Darnassian-aligned Night Elves as foes. Additionally, those allies' presence is in no way limited to Azshara.
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  #246  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:23 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Chimaera did if the Warcraft III orc campaign was any indication - and the mountain giants had no way of knowing what they were called out to help with.
By the time the chimaeras showed up it was far past logging.
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Old 12-10-2017, 10:27 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
By the time the chimaeras showed up it was far past logging.
In what way? Grom hadn't yet consumed the demon blood - he had merely expanded his logging operation, which if we go by WoW's placement and the size of the warsong lumber camp: wasn't that big - and they turned up to help Cenarius wreck Orcish logging camps.

Demons weren't even on the field yet to the Night Elves' knowledge.
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Old 12-10-2017, 11:15 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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I mean how WoW has you play as just a faction of Undead who split off from the Scourge. I suggested doing something like that where some NEs allied with the Alliance but Ashenvale stayed neutral and maintained its tradition.
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Old 12-10-2017, 11:37 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
I mean how WoW has you play as just a faction of Undead who split off from the Scourge. I suggested doing something like that where some NEs allied with the Alliance but Ashenvale stayed neutral and maintained its tradition.
I think that would be just as jarring, if not moreso, than what they did with the Druids. The Night Elves were unified in Warcraft 3 with no real reason to form splinter groups. They were united in their purpose, that purpose was clear, and you could understand them from there.

Splintering off the druids robbed them of a lot of that purpose. They defend nature, and Ashenvale, but if the paragons of nature themselves don't care, what's the point? It would be much the same way if Ashenvale went off and formed its own government. Then the playable faction would even lose the Night Elven homeland - ending up even more purposeless than before.
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Old 12-11-2017, 03:30 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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You can accuse me accurately of being hyperbolic when I called it an "army o'archers", but you aren't showing me anything new here.
That's not really an argument worth anything. Whether is this news or not, you are still being hyperbolic for the sake of putting up an exaggerated show, something you won't find me sympathetic towards.
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