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View Poll Results: In What Year Did the Roman Empire Fall?
44 BC 2 10.00%
14 AD 0 0%
180 AD 0 0%
312 AD 1 5.00%
337 AD 0 0%
395 AD 0 0%
476 AD 4 20.00%
1204 AD 0 0%
1453 AD 8 40.00%
1917 AD 0 0%
Other 5 25.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:43 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Explain your choice below, particularly if you chose 'none of the above.' Poll will be forthcoming
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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  #2  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:48 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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You want to start a riot?

Because this is how you start a riot.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:14 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Splitting it was bad enough but I'd say it started from 410 with the sack of Rome to 476 with the deposition of Romulus Augustulus. By that time the classic Rome was a memory, and the various splinters resembled it in name only. And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:24 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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You want to start a riot?

Because this is how you start a riot.
That is my hope, yes.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:30 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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476AD, when the last emperor is dead and the other folks call themselves by a new name, hard to say the "Roman" Empire is still alive.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:30 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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476AD, when the last emperor is dead and the other folks call themselves by a new name, hard to say the "Roman" Empire is still alive.
One word: 'Czar'
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #7  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:31 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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One word: 'Czar'
Doesn't count.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:38 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I think it would have been better for this poll to allow multiple choices. As far as I am concerned the most suitable choices seem to be either 1204, if we are going for continous existence, or 1918, if we are going for translated existence.
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  #9  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:39 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Doesn't count.
Why not?
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #10  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:51 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
476AD, when the last emperor is dead and the other folks call themselves by a new name, hard to say the "Roman" Empire is still alive.
476 AD saw the empire fall in the west. The east survived (and sometimes thrived) for almost a thousand more years.
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  #11  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:53 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Quote:
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476AD, when the last emperor is dead and the other folks call themselves by a new name, hard to say the "Roman" Empire is still alive.
Ehm, the other folks did not call themselves by a new name. The Byzantine Empire was not used by the Romaioi themselves, it was actually put to use more than a century after the fall of Constantinople. The Eastern Romans were occasionally called Imperium Graecorum, but only by the Westerners.
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  #12  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:58 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
One word: 'Czar'
Humbug, completely different geographic area.
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  #13  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:59 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Marthen and I won so you guys can just go home now.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:04 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Marthen and I won so you guys can just go home now.
You haven't even presented your answer!
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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #15  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:15 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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312 AD. Pagan Rome is best Rome.
Make Rome Great Again.
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  #16  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:18 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Quote:
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You haven't even presented your answer!
The poll is public. I said other.
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  #17  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:21 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Ehm, the other folks did not call themselves by a new name. The Byzantine Empire was not used by the Romaioi themselves, it was actually put to use more than a century after the fall of Constantinople. The Eastern Romans were occasionally called Imperium Graecorum, but only by the Westerners.
I feel dumb, I'd never considered that.

Still, they didn't hold Rome, so I still wouldn't consider them the Roman Empire.
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  #18  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:27 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
The poll is public. I said other.
You can't just say 'other!' You have to specify another date!
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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #19  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:35 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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We can argue that it still exist.



The Papacy is still Roman too.
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  #20  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:39 AM
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That chart makes absolutely no sense.
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  #21  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:51 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Still, they didn't hold Rome, so I still wouldn't consider them the Roman Empire.
They held Roma Constantinopolitana, also known as Nova Roma.
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  #22  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:56 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Quote:
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You can't just say 'other!' You have to specify another date!
Only a Sith speaks in absolutes.
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  #23  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:10 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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The correct answer is winning!

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  #24  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:50 PM
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In my answer I'm changing the question asked from 'In What Year Did the Roman Empire Fall?' to 'In What Year Did the Roman Republic Fall?' The reason for the change is twofold: the newer question is simply more interesting - and two; contrary to Gibbon's seminal text on the topic, at no single date in recorded history can we point to one precise moment where the socio-political hodgepodge referred to as the 'Roman Empire' fell. Instead there was a centuries-long process of rising, transformation, declination and final separation.

Now when did the Roman republic fall? Well that moment is easier to pinpoint - and I would say the truest answer would lie somewhere in the reign of 'Augustus' Caesar - specifically in 27BC after Octavian had triumphed over all others in his series of civil wars and was left as the sole-power to remake the Roman state as he desired. These reforms were far-reaching and wholly transformed whatever constitutional remnants of the old republic into what we now know as the empire. Augustus himself describes this moment in his Res Gestae as:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Res Gestae Devi Augusti; Part VI - Chapter 34
In my sixth and seventh consulships, when I had extinguished the flames of civil war, after receiving by universal consent the absolute control of affairs, I transferred the republic from my own control to the will of the senate and the Roman people. For this service on my part I was given the title of Augustus by decree of the senate, and the doorposts of my house were covered with laurels by public act, and a civic crown was fixed above my door, and a golden shield was placed in the Curia Julia whose inscription testified that the senate and the Roman people gave me this in recognition of my valour, my clemency, my justice, and my piety. After that time I took precedence of all in rank, but of power I possessed no more than those who were my colleagues in any magistracy.
We should treat any talk by Augustus of restoring the republic to the SPQR skeptically - as we know from other sources that he, in fact, wielded absolute power in terms of his auctoritas (influence/authority) while also holding an unprecedented (and unconstitutional) legal position for himself. The 27BC settlement granted him complete control over most of Rome's provinces - including Gaul (France), Asia Minor (Turkey) and Egypt (among others). This, combined with his previous wealth and legions, gave him personal authority over the majority of Rome's soldiers. So although there remained an ostensibly-functioning Senate - nobody would or could have dared challenge Augustus as he then went about enacting his reforms of the state.

While Rome was at this point still nominally a constitutional republic and Octavian always presented himself as a humble conservative who followed tradition and precedence, he was in fact a radical autocrat that personally transformed the state into what we now call the 'Roman empire' - and 27BC is when he could begin that effort in earnest.

Last edited by Shaman; 04-24-2017 at 10:55 PM..
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  #25  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:04 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
They held Roma Constantinopolitana, also known as Nova Roma.
Still consider them a separate empire not a continuation of the existing one.
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