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Old 11-19-2014, 01:15 AM
Darkphoenix Darkphoenix is offline

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Default Sunreaver Blood Knights

Is my reasoning sound here? What are your thoughts?

One of the primary threads in Lor'themar's short story "In the Shadow of the Sun" was the Blood Elves post-Third-War relationship with the wizards of Dalaran. At some point between the imprisoning of Kael'thas Sunstrider in the Violet Hold and the pre-event to Wrath of the Lich King, some Blood Elves decided to return to Dalaran to live, study, help rebuild, etc... As we all know, one of these Blood Elves was Aethas Sunreaver, and it was he who essentially replaced Kael'thas in the Kirin Tor's Council of Six. Now, at the start of the story, Aethas asks to make the partnership between the Kirin Tor and the Thalassian State official, and the tale concludes with Lor'themar technically saying no, but practically saying yes via the decision not to prevent Blood Elves from joining Aethas' Kirin Tor Sunreaver faction.

Why the little history recap?

My proposition is this: we essentially have two groups of Blood Knights in game at present: those who serve Lady Liadrin, and those who serve Aethas Sunreaver; and the later are the one's who still reject the notion of faith in the Light.

Here's my reasoning. By mere virtue of the fact that Lor'themar didn't make the alliance between the two magical nations official, Thalassian soldiers therefore couldn't go to fight for the Kirin Tor, because if official solders went to fight, they'd be representing the Thalassian State just by being what they are. Remember, official representation was rejected by Lor'themar. So, I'm saying here that those Blood Knights under Lady Liadrin who wanted to fight with the Sunreavers in the Nexus War and against the Scourge would of had to of left the Blood Knight Order in order to not implicate the Thalassian State in Kirin tor business. So, once these Blood Knights left Liadrin's Order behind, they became Aethas'; and there still in his faction's to this day. If Thunder Isle is anything to go off of, the Blood Knights there wear Sunreaver tabards; not Blood Knight tabards; and the events of Thunder Isle are still quite recent, and well after the purge.

The Sunreavers are a faction of scholarly magic wielders. As such, I'd say that it makes sense to say that they'd have a more scientific view on all types of magic; even the Light. Wouldn't this faction be the perfect place for a non-believing Blood Knight to call home?
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:07 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Non-Light worshiping Blood Knights are an outdated relic, desperately clung onto by Blood Elf RP'ers who want to roleplay Drow and be pricks towards everybody whilst trying to justify why they're still playing a Paladin.

Sorry, I'm just bitter.

Anyway, I'm kind of curious as to whether or not the original Blood Knights would even continue to function at this point. Considering the Order seems to have more or less completely upped and gone the Lawful Good route. I've always kind of wondered if being able to 'control' the Light requires regular dosages of Naaru snuff, otherwise it would seem pretty simple for whole armies to just get infused with the Light and go "lol imma pally now" whilst needing a source makes this less practical. The vampiric nature the Blood Elves originally had going for them probably fits this as well.
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Old 11-19-2014, 07:07 AM
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Non-Light worshiping Blood Knights are an outdated relic, desperately clung onto by Blood Elf RP'ers who want to roleplay Drow and be pricks towards everybody whilst trying to justify why they're still playing a Paladin.

Sorry, I'm just bitter.
Nothing to be sorry about; you're spot on with this.
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Old 11-19-2014, 08:15 AM
Zaelsino Zaelsino is offline

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I think you're reading a bit too much into that one regiment of Blood Knights on the IoT. Everyone there (rangers, spellbreakers, Reliquary, mana wyrms, arcane golems) was fighting under the banner of the Sunreaver Onslaught, but it's unlikely most of them were really Sunreavers who went off to serve Dalaran under Aethas after TBC. Logic would dictate it was the same deal with the Blood Knights there -- 5.1's epilogue quite heavily suggests the opposite, that all of these Silvermoon factions were summoned to supplement the Sunreavers because the latter is gutted with most of its members locked up in jail.

Blizzard admittedly did a bad job of showing this in 5.2 (95% of the quest givers/mages being Sunreavers from WotLK kind of undermines the above), but eh.

I'd like some variety in the Blood Knights too, but clashing ideals should come from within the order IMO. It's too restrictive if every member of X is homogenized into having the exact same mindset.
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Old 11-19-2014, 09:06 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Non-Light worshiping Blood Knights are an outdated relic, desperately clung onto by Blood Elf RP'ers who want to roleplay Drow and be pricks towards everybody whilst trying to justify why they're still playing a Paladin.

Sorry, I'm just bitter.
Though you are spot on with this, in that many use being a BC blood knight as a chance to be an asshole. I disagree that all those who do so are 'bads'.

We need to look at their history to see why, they drained from muru, this they knew, was a horrible act, but was testament to the power they had, the fall had broken these elves and they had to rebuild everything they had, including a new order to protect the kingdom. They would do anything at any cost ectect.

Liadrin then comes out at the end of bc all wavy with 'the light is so awesome wooo' and turns around the whole orders' ideals, what it was built on. Granted, I believe most should follow her way, as she is the order's leader. But I think a select few, who have been through a shitheap by now would cling to 'well, fuck that'. maybe they are silent protesters, maybe they do not follow any virtues ectect, but I think they would be there, perhaps doing things.

Now, if you really want to moan about Blood Knight RPers, talk about how every one is a master, and they are treated like rank and file solders... Which, they are fundamentally not.

/bitter
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Old 11-19-2014, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Non-Light worshiping Blood Knights are an outdated relic, desperately clung onto by Blood Elf RP'ers who want to roleplay Drow and be pricks towards everybody whilst trying to justify why they're still playing a Paladin.

Sorry, I'm just bitter.

Anyway, I'm kind of curious as to whether or not the original Blood Knights would even continue to function at this point. Considering the Order seems to have more or less completely upped and gone the Lawful Good route. I've always kind of wondered if being able to 'control' the Light requires regular dosages of Naaru snuff, otherwise it would seem pretty simple for whole armies to just get infused with the Light and go "lol imma pally now" whilst needing a source makes this less practical. The vampiric nature the Blood Elves originally had going for them probably fits this as well.
I would say that as a result of the Naaru-Well and under Liadrin's leadership, the Blood Knights are poised to take an even more prominent socio-political role in blood elf society. Blood Knights and priests have become the guardians, tutors, and models for this renewed Sunwell who oppose the Burning Legion and the fel corruption that befell many of their Outland kin.
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Old 11-19-2014, 06:43 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Originally Posted by belorealah View Post
Though you are spot on with this, in that many use being a BC blood knight as a chance to be an asshole. I disagree that all those who do so are 'bads'.

We need to look at their history to see why, they drained from muru, this they knew, was a horrible act, but was testament to the power they had, the fall had broken these elves and they had to rebuild everything they had, including a new order to protect the kingdom. They would do anything at any cost ectect.

Liadrin then comes out at the end of bc all wavy with 'the light is so awesome wooo' and turns around the whole orders' ideals, what it was built on. Granted, I believe most should follow her way, as she is the order's leader. But I think a select few, who have been through a shitheap by now would cling to 'well, fuck that'. maybe they are silent protesters, maybe they do not follow any virtues ectect, but I think they would be there, perhaps doing things.
I'm bitter because the people who roleplay Light-revering Blood Knights are few and far between. Heck, the only ones you really see doing that are Priests. Whilst I respect that the Sunwell stuff was a pretty hefty 180 in terms of personality, being surrounded by nothing but total smug pricks who's entire identity as a character is being a bigger 'lol im so snoby and superior' to EVERY single person (unless they want in your pants) gets old really, really, quickly.

I'd not dispute that there would be some bitter holdovers. My thought though is who the Blood Knights were pulled from: priests, paladins and Royal Guard. The latter are probably going to shut up and follow their leaders and benefit for it, the former likely didn't complain much when it turned out they were wrong and the Light came back to them. The problem is when every other Blood Knight is a sociopath who apparently spent their time as a Quel'dorei chain smoking and picking bar fights whilst spending their noble house's money on wine.

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Now, if you really want to moan about Blood Knight RPers, talk about how every one is a master, and they are treated like rank and file solders... Which, they are fundamentally not.
I get the feeling this came about due to roleplaying communities having a perverse sexual lust for 'guard guilds'. Obviously Blood Elves couldn't be Warriors until Cataclysm (which is the standard-issue 'im rping a guard mom' class), coupled with the actual NPCs being bloody Night Elves (in skeleton) of all things and an armour that was impossible to get. People just latched onto the next best thing.

"20 years old (in elf years) and a master" irk me, but after the horror of Sith Lords and Darths in SWTOR they can't really infuriate me like they once did. In one respect I see why people play Masters: they don't want to be the one poor sod playing an Adept and then once this is realised every idiot with a messiah complex tries to order him/her around and demand respect. Not that I approve either mind you.
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Old 11-19-2014, 07:29 PM
Darkphoenix Darkphoenix is offline

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@Blood Knight Role Play: I've role-played a Blood Knight on US-Moon Guard since lore classes entrance into the game in BC. I've seen a lot of shit. In fact, I'd be willing to wager that the Blood Knight RP community has a stronger problem than that of the Death Knight RP community; and that's saying something.

The problem is that Blizzard seldom touches Blood Knight lore. Sure, you've seen Blood Knights out and about since patch 2.4, and we've had the odd Q&A that's fed us a few clues here and there, but beyond that, Blood Knights are really just portrayed as being light-wielding soldiers. Nothing specific about them is ever divulged. That leaves RPers to do one of two things: rely on interpreting past and out-dated lore (a shit fight), or just make things up (an even bigger shit fight). And people wonder why that RP community sucks...

Also, most Blood Knight Masters are treated like your average rank-and-file soldiers in Blood Knight guilds because you never really see any rank below that rank out and about in the rest of the world. The Masters rank, in other words, losses it's gravity when everyone else seems to be a Master too.

/bitter... but understanding, as well.

@Drusus: Regular doses of "Naaru snuff" isn't required. We were told in the first CDev that Blood Knights wield the Light through the Sunwell. This was great to find out... but it left people with the following question: does that mean Blood Knights can bypass the faith requirement necessary for wielding the Light? Some say yes, now Blood Knights can just wield the Light freely, without the need for faith; whilst others say no, now they're essentially just paladins. I lean towards the former over the latter, seeing a Blood Knight's faith as optional.

@Everyone Else: Sure, I could be reading a little too much into this... However, there are examples of Sunreaver Blood Knights existing in Dalaran before that small unit on Thunder Isle. And, as you've stated, Blizzard opted for bringing back those Sunreavers we were familiar with during Wrath.

In the Shadow of the Sun also mentions the fact that Kael'thas' Sunfury forces had returned to Silvermoon. This fact being mentioned during a story that included the early days of the Sunreavers makes me believe that those Sunfury who returned to Quel'thalas, left again to serve fight the Scourge under Aethas... and I have a bit of evidence to push this thought. There's a Sunfury flag on Thunder Isle, just behind the ornate desk in the massive Blood Elf tent.

Another point is that, whilst you'd think clashing ideals should be shown within the Blood Knight Order, I believe that they actually wouldn't. The Thalassian State essentially subscribes to totalitarianism. This leaves little room for conflicting ideologies on... anything really. What's prescribed to you by your superiors is what you believe, and the Blood Elves have the wonderful advantage of being able to enforce this via magically wiping the minds of those who don't agree. So, in my mind, those Blood Knights who don't see the Light as a sudo-deity-like figure like Lady liadrin does, have two options before them: stay in the Blood Knight Order and keep their mouths shut, or leave the Blood Knight Order and search for another group who either shares their own ideals, or lets them think the way that they wish on the subject. I'm arguing here that faithless Blood Knights would most probably find refugee for their more scientific outlook on the Light under Aethas' Sunreaver, thus the second Blood Knight group.
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Old 11-19-2014, 07:34 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I look at my Blood Elf Paladin as pretty much just a red version of my Alliance Human Paladin. Probably more intense and 'Retribution'-like in contrast to my Alliance Paladin's more 'Holy' style.
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Old 11-20-2014, 05:48 AM
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I look at my Blood Elf Paladin as pretty much just a red version of my Alliance Human Paladin. Probably more intense and 'Retribution'-like in contrast to my Alliance Paladin's more 'Holy' style.
Which makes no sense since Blood Elves are magic addicted stick figures.
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Old 11-20-2014, 06:02 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Which makes no sense since Blood Elves are magic addicted stick figures.
Formerly.
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Old 11-20-2014, 06:18 AM
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Don't the blood knight quests say you're a master by level 60?
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Old 11-20-2014, 06:37 AM
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but after the horror of Sith Lords and Darths in SWTOR they can't really infuriate me like they once did
I've actually largely moved over to Republic toons as a result of this tbh, can't stand it anymore.

Pub side has issues too - a lot of Mary Sue Jedi, and Smugglers who think they're the "most super duper Crime Lord in the entire Galaxy, even the Hutts fear me!" [screams internally] - but it's far better than Empire side. Just a shame PVP wise, Empire shit over Republic 80% of the time. _
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Old 11-20-2014, 06:45 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Don't the blood knight quests say you're a master by level 60?
I believe you're one when you finish(ed) your Charger quest. Obviously, that's gone now so pretty much yeah. Obviously our PCs are special snowflakes and not the norm.

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I've actually largely moved over to Republic toons as a result of this tbh, can't stand it anymore.
Once I encountered a Pureblood Apprentice as an Imperial who definitely kept that dignified authority about him but didn't PUSH being a 'superior' during the whole conversation either. That left me a little bit more optimistic about there being decent types out there but they are so few and far between. I encountered so many more Darths/Lords trying to force choke every thing in sight to impress their waifu that I gave up.

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Pub side has issues too - a lot of Mary Sue Jedi, and Smugglers who think they're the "most super duper Crime Lord in the entire Galaxy, even the Hutts fear me!" [screams internally] - but it's far better than Empire side. Just a shame PVP wise, Empire shit over Republic 80% of the time. _
Don't forget that every Jedi Master is in a 'forbidden romance' with their female Padawan.
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Old 11-20-2014, 06:57 AM
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Don't forget that every Jedi Master is in a 'forbidden romance' with their female Padawan.
[screaming intensifies]
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:07 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Since my curiosity is pique'd, what RP backgrounds do you guys consider to be non-cringeworthy?
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:10 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Since my curiosity is pique'd, what RP backgrounds do you guys consider to be non-cringeworthy?
You're going to have to narrow it down a bit.

Blood Knights specifically?
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:18 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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You're going to have to narrow it down a bit.

Blood Knights specifically?
Yeah Blood Knights.
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:22 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Since my curiosity is pique'd, what RP backgrounds do you guys consider to be non-cringeworthy?
My Blood Elf habitually uses bloodthistle by pricking his tongue with it and allowing the toxins to enter his bloodstream that way. He believes this superior to smoking it.
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:23 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Yeah Blood Knights.
Don't be from a noble house, more specifically don't be a Lord from a House.

Don't be a "I don't revere the Holy Light! I'm a BC-Blood Knight!"

Don't be a Master unless you've got people to back you up (a guild) OR you don't go around ordering people what to do.
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:28 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Don't be a "I don't revere the Holy Light! I'm a BC-Blood Knight!"
But isn't Lady Whatshername the only Elven blood knight confirmed to revere the Light? Aren't these guys raiding cathedrals to snuff symbolic holy candles and desecrating Silver Hand tombs? Seems there'd be at least a denomination of them who are jerks, if not the majority.
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:29 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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My Blood Elf habitually uses bloodthistle by pricking his tongue with it and allowing the toxins to enter his bloodstream that way. He believes this superior to smoking it.


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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Don't be from a noble house, more specifically don't be a Lord from a House.

Don't be a "I don't revere the Holy Light! I'm a BC-Blood Knight!"

Don't be a Master unless you've got people to back you up (a guild) OR you don't go around ordering people what to do.
Fair enough, I don't think I can remember ever coming up with these as character backgrounds so I'm in the clear there.

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But isn't Lady Whatshername the only Elven blood knight confirmed to revere the Light? Aren't these guys raiding cathedrals to snuff symbolic holy candles and desecrating Silver Hand tombs? Seems there'd be at least a denomination of them who are jerks, if not the majority.
I think it was just one guy that went around doing that because he hated Uther. I don't think he's really that popular among the rest of Blood Elf society and that's probably why he's sulking with the Undead.
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:36 AM
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I've actually largely moved over to Republic toons as a result of this tbh, can't stand it anymore.

Pub side has issues too - a lot of Mary Sue Jedi, and Smugglers who think they're the "most super duper Crime Lord in the entire Galaxy, even the Hutts fear me!" [screams internally] - but it's far better than Empire side. Just a shame PVP wise, Empire shit over Republic 80% of the time. _
You're talking about RP right?
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:37 AM
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You're talking about RP right?
Aye.
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Old 11-20-2014, 08:01 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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I think it was just one guy that went around doing that because he hated Uther. I don't think he's really that popular among the rest of Blood Elf society and that's probably why he's sulking with the Undead.
That rat is at Auchindoun in WoD.
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