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Old 02-19-2015, 07:49 AM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Crossed Swords Fixing the faction conflict

It seems a common complaint that the faction conflict is a rather disliked thing. The general opinion seems to be that either A. The faction conflict largely ruined WC. and/or B. That more faction conflict content is typically bad.

But why is that? War in any other setting is often a source of very good story telling and content: making it less that "faction conflict is bad" and more so that "blizz can't do conflict well", at least in my opinion. I see it said that you can't really feel for a conflict when neither side is capable of losing any ground: but this is only an argument for capitols, sides have lost ground on a few occasions in WoW, especcially in Cata. But of course that fell flat because as always, it was largely based around one race, rather than faction.

What can blizz do to as far as the faction conflict is concerned to make it good content? I felt that 5.1 did an ok job with the conflict for once: both sides were out in the open world fighting each other. Each base had more than just Orcs and Humans in it (though not many) but it still dropped the ball in many ways:
  • They were both still wildly human and orc themed
  • In the big faction conflict scenario, it was humans waving their dicks around and being better than everyone, and Orcs being the only thing the Horde had
  • Neither side had any heroes or champions of merit: as always, the only important people are the faction leaders, and only two of them.

If just that was remedied, I'd feel the faction conflict could be a source of very good and strong content. More than just humans and orcs themed everything, one race not simply lording another, new heroes and champions that aren't just faction leaders. War is one of the hardest subjects to make boring, its still hard for me to accept that blizz can be so poor at story telling that they made war a bore.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:06 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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The biggest problem for me is that the faction conflict just feels like a weak retread. We've had the massive world-shaking conflict, we've got the conflict that ended in them overcoming their differences and we've got jackasses renewing the conflict because of old hatreds. After that, there's really not anywhere new to take the conflict.

Like so many things in Vanilla, the game tried too hard to emulate situations from earlier games rather than carrying on from those. The horde and alliance didn't make any sense whatsoever to be the two main factions after WC3, especially because, well, there wasn't much left to fight over. Jaina showed that the humans didn't want to break the orcish spirit, Thrall showed that the orcs didn't want to claim human lands, and together they helped save the planet. That was the perfect place to end the conflict, because after that, you can't have them fight again without those moments losing their meaning.

Plus, the two sides were kinda hilariously disbalanced after Warcraft III.


Give me two different factions, and I'd happily encourage conflict. Just give it some more meaning then "Hey, let's do warcraft II again".
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:09 AM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
The biggest problem for me is that the faction conflict just feels like a weak retread. We've had the massive world-shaking conflict, we've got the conflict that ended in them overcoming their differences and we've got jackasses renewing the conflict because of old hatreds. After that, there's really not anywhere new to take the conflict.

Like so many things in Vanilla, the game tried too hard to emulate situations from earlier games rather than carrying on from those. The horde and alliance didn't make any sense whatsoever to be the two main factions after WC3, especially because, well, there wasn't much left to fight over. Jaina showed that the humans didn't want to break the orcish spirit, Thrall showed that the orcs didn't want to claim human lands, and together they helped save the planet. That was the perfect place to end the conflict, because after that, you can't have them fight again without those moments losing their meaning.

Plus, the two sides were kinda hilariously disbalanced after Warcraft III.
When have they ever overcome their differences? WotLK ended with them fighting each other and Alliance beating LK. Cata ended with... well they never ever explain Horde and Alliance suddenly teaming up at DS. I assume it was Thrall forcing it, because Garrosh would have never accepted it. MoP ended with both sides still being at each others throats but having a brief "Ok, we'll team up for now.". Hell, Vol'Jin even threatened the Alliance adventurers.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:11 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
When have they ever overcome their differences? WotLK ended with them fighting each other and Alliance beating LK. Cata ended with... well they never ever explain Horde and Alliance suddenly teaming up at DS. I assume it was Thrall forcing it, because Garrosh would have never accepted it. MoP ended with both sides still being at each others throats but having a brief "Ok, we'll team up for now.". Hell, Vol'Jin even threatened the Alliance adventurers.
It's cannon that the Alliance beat the LK?

There is also a truce if I remember currently? You stay off my land i'll stay of yours.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:13 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
When have they ever overcome their differences? WotLK ended with them fighting each other and Alliance beating LK. Cata ended with... well they never ever explain Horde and Alliance suddenly teaming up at DS. I assume it was Thrall forcing it, because Garrosh would have never accepted it. MoP ended with both sides still being at each others throats but having a brief "Ok, we'll team up for now.". Hell, Vol'Jin even threatened the Alliance adventurers.
I meant prior to WoW's events. Warcraft II was the big world-shaking war, Warcraft III the one where they overcame their differences, and you've got a variety of jackasses trudging up old hatreds, whether it is Grom, Jubei'Thos, Daelin, Burx or Kristoff.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:18 AM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Quote:
It's canon that the Alliance beat the LK?

There is also a truce if I remember currently? You stay off my land i'll stay of yours.
There were a few things that point towards Alliance winning. Like Sylvs ignorance of what happened, or how Alliance had a unique story element with Jaina's "my king" speech, while Horde had none.

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
I meant prior to when WoW even started.
They didn't then either. At most maybe the NE and the Horde did, but the people of E-kingdoms certainly did not have any sort of peace. And the N-elves was more of a alliance of convenience that largely fell apart due to Thrall's incompetence.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:20 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Another chief problem with faction conflict is how the factions themselves, with at least one example on both sides, tend to be a bit arbitrary in the interest of gameplay.
When you then go and introduce large-scale conflict that hinges on these arguably artificial constructs acting in greater unison and agreement than they logically should be capable of, you get a lot of people disconnected from what they are doing and why, with incoherent, backwards explanations running rampant.
If you then also go and add big changes like territory losses and gains as result of said conflict, which due to the format of the game are more permanent than the story might be wanting to get across, those same disconnected people are now going to feel cheated and disappointed to say the least.
At that point, a couple interesting visuals and gameplay questing mechanics aren't going to save your idea anymore, no matter how much you try to emphasize them.

Yours truly confesses to all charges regarding my general response to WoW's development since Cata being roughly as described in this post.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:32 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
They didn't then either. At most maybe the NE and the Horde did, but the people of E-kingdoms certainly did not have any sort of peace.
There weren't really any significant populations in the Eastern kingdoms by that point in the retcon cycle. This was in the time where Theramore contained "the human survivors of Lordaeron", and had been "erected to safeguard the remnants of the failing human alliance" (quotes from the TFT manual).
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Old 02-19-2015, 04:35 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
There weren't really any significant populations in the Eastern kingdoms by that point in the retcon cycle. This was in the time where Theramore contained "the human survivors of Lordaeron", and had been "erected to safeguard the remnants of the failing human alliance" (quotes from the TFT manual).
So it was made up of Lordaeron. Stormwind was down there doing nothing, as well as the dwarves and gnomes: which were the majority of the WoW Alliance and therefore not effected by any sort of treaty Jaina may have done.
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Old 02-19-2015, 05:53 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I would have liked it more if the Worgen/Forsaken conflict hadn't have been sidelined. That was the only faction war story I actually found interesting, since Knights vs. Grunts is just tired and played out.
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Old 02-19-2015, 05:57 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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I would have liked it more if the Worgen/Forsaken conflict hadn't have been sidelined. That was the only faction war story I actually found interesting, since Knights vs. Grunts is just tired and played out.
I would love knights vs grunts. But Stormwind doesn't seem to have any knights anymore.
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Old 02-19-2015, 06:38 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I would love knights vs grunts. But Stormwind doesn't seem to have any knights anymore.
Well not knights, but footmen, which apparently seem to have such an interesting fashion sense that it makes other races want to drop their own style of armors and take up Stormwind's style.
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Old 02-19-2015, 06:59 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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The faction conflict can be fixed surprisingly simply by killing all Forsaken, since they're still the primary drivers of conflict.
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Old 02-19-2015, 07:08 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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But if the Forsaken were to win, then there'd be nobody to conflict with. So conflict over.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:19 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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But if the Forsaken were to win, then there'd be nobody to conflict with. So conflict over.
I think one of the best things we can all pick up from Scrolls is to ignore any post by Fojar with "forsaken" in it.

That said, even without the Forsaken there'd still be conflict. They havent ever really driven any sort of conflict in WoW except a brief stint in Cata.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:27 PM
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The fraction conflict is retarded. There is nothing of meaning to be gained from it as you've seen in mists of assholes destroy a country then leave to not destroy orgrimmar and not settle the conflict because lolreasons.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:33 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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The fraction conflict is retarded. There is nothing of meaning to be gained from it as you've seen in mists of assholes destroy a country then leave to not destroy orgrimmar and not settle the conflict because lolreasons.
But that was mostly just poor writing. Blizz would have messed up no matter the subject. There was so much lost potential in SoO and Mists that wasn't grasped not because gameplay limitations, but just really bad writing.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:37 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
But that was mostly just poor writing. Blizz would have messed up no matter the subject. There was so much lost potential in SoO and Mists that wasn't grasped not because gameplay limitations, but just really bad writing.
So all the more reason to avoid it.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:38 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Faction conflict as a driving force in game is over with and She who Thirsts willing, it will never come back.

You can't write a good faction conflict where there can be no winners and no losers.

There is a reason why they don't make a lot of movies about the Korea War....
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Old 02-20-2015, 12:36 AM
Galka Galka is offline

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The poor quality of the faction conflict has nothing to do with writing, but with the concept itself.

The faction war has been done already, and it will always be somewhat predictable. This doesn't mean it isn't interesting, but it can never be as interesting as a new villain, like an eldritch abomination of universe-spanning empire of fire. Going back to plain mortals fighting mortals over boring mortal stuff is just a step down now.
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Old 02-20-2015, 01:14 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galka View Post
The poor quality of the faction conflict has nothing to do with writing, but with the concept itself.

The faction war has been done already, and it will always be somewhat predictable. This doesn't mean it isn't interesting, but it can never be as interesting as a new villain, like an eldritch abomination of universe-spanning empire of fire. Going back to plain mortals fighting mortals over boring mortal stuff is just a step down now.
Mortals fighting mortals is more interesting than god tier mary sues fighting the DBZ villain of the day.
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Old 02-20-2015, 06:35 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galka View Post
The faction war has been done already, and it will always be somewhat predictable. This doesn't mean it isn't interesting, but it can never be as interesting as a new villain, like an eldritch abomination of universe-spanning empire of fire. Going back to plain mortals fighting mortals over boring mortal stuff is just a step down now.
So much wrong here, if you ask me. First of all, I agree with what Grimtale said.
Secondly, the constant escalation way of doing it inevitably creates more problems than it's worth.
Telling the story of the small-time fighting each other, however, works better than you give it credit to, if it has both the writers really trying for it and an audience with the patience to appreciate it.
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Old 02-20-2015, 10:47 AM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
So it was made up of Lordaeron. Stormwind was down there doing nothing, as well as the dwarves and gnomes: which were the majority of the WoW Alliance and therefore not effected by any sort of treaty Jaina may have done.
Except WC3 had it that the Scourge and/or Legion rampaged around the Eastern Kingdoms rather than just the northern kingdoms. What with how Jaina's expedition had refugees from non-northern kingdoms, Medivh said Lordaeron (as in, more than a single kingdom) had already fallen, and Daelin's fleet not being successful at finding survivors.

WoW minimized the scale of the Scourge and Legion's rampages. In a more WC3 consistent WoW, the WC3 Alliance should either be finished (with maybe another Alliance being formed), or in no position to be a globe trotting superpower.

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Old 02-20-2015, 11:26 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Mortals fighting mortals is more interesting than god tier mary sues fighting the DBZ villain of the day.
The easiest way to 'fix' the faction conflict is to kill the Mary Sues and break the Horde/Alliance.
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Old 02-20-2015, 11:49 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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>Fixing
>Faction Conflict


Pick one.
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