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Old 04-17-2014, 05:59 AM
Hellscream1 Hellscream1 is offline

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Default Garrosh is 'evil' but Grom isn't?

Being a staunch Garrosh fan, despite his forced villainy in MoP, I've noticed a trend among posters.

Garrosh is hated and despised for his war against the Alliance, trying to commit genocide, breaking the Horde, ect. I can definitely see the differing points of view here. Especially since the writers made the forced mantra, "The Horde is family." to make people further hate Garrosh.

But my real question is, how can you hate Garrosh, but then praise Grom as a hero of the Horde? I always liked Grom. Always will. But I do not have a skewed outlook on his character. Grom -was- a bloodthirsty, genocidal maniac, who murdered children under Mannoroth's curse. You can call him a "hero" all you want, but, Garrosh was the bigger hero in my eyes.

You can bring up his "redemption" and how he saved the Orcish race. Sure. The blood curse sure as hell isn't mind control. Hours before the Thrall captured him, he was attempting to wipe out everything in his path, on another genocidal rampage. Even his death was selfish. "I have freed myself." Grom didn't give a damn about the Orcish race. No, he only cared about him and himself only during his final seconds.

Grom fell into corruption -twice- just for his massive ego and pride alone. He is no different than Garrosh. Both are going to be forced into a corner. Both are going to resort to drastic measures to win. Garrosh - Sha. Grom - demon blood, just like he did in Ashenvale.

The point of this is to understand why people whitewash Grom into being a saint, but then call Garrosh evil? It does not make sense to me.

I like both characters. Garrosh is my all time favorite WoW character. I am unbiased in my views though.

Grom had no visions of grandeur for his people. He didn't want the Horde to prosper at all, unlike Garrosh. Everything he did was for the greater good of the Orcish race, and not selfish impulse urges.
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Old 04-17-2014, 06:08 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

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I think they're both disgusting. Does that make my outlook un-skewed in your opinion?
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  #3  
Old 04-17-2014, 06:11 AM
Hellscream1 Hellscream1 is offline

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Originally Posted by Jon Targaryen View Post
I think they're both disgusting. Does that make my outlook un-skewed in your opinion?

Should of been more clear. This is pointed at Horde players that revere Grom, not Alliance. I'm pretty sure you hate him plenty.
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:04 AM
Stormcaller Stormcaller is offline

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The thing with Grom is that he is generally considered a far better character from a writing standpoint. He was always consistent in his characterisation compared to Garrosh who has bounced around massively from a melancholic whiner, to a honourable if aggressive warrior and finally saturday morning cartoon villain since he was introduced.

Praising Grom as a hero is the equivalent of people who try and call Garithos, Sylvanas or Garrosh 'good' characters and is absolutely a disservice to why he's a good character. Grom is an anti-hero at best from most of the Horde's perspective and a villain from almost every Alliance perspective.

Grom was unapologetic in his selfishness but accepted fault and constantly worked for himself and his clan, an enemy was a thing to be defeated, and possibly respected. and hardships were a thing to be overcome and that was it.

Garrosh however is more frustrating because he believes himself in the right no matter what, an enemy is a thing to be hated, reviled and crushed so that it may never rise again and hardships are the fault of the despised enemy.

Perhaps I speak only for myself here but Grom can be seen as 'better' in the sense that he is a lighter shade of a still quite dark grey because a lot of what he did could be chalked up to pragmatism.

-Drank Demon Blood, because it was going to happen anyhow. Drinking first just reminded everyone that he and his clan were powerful, even without Gul'dan's backing.
-Drank again in Ashenvale because it was the only possible way to fight back at the Night Elves and Cenarius in their own forests with even a chance of coming out alive.

Garrosh is impracticality incarnate though, he bullied and alienated allies because of his unwavering and impossible vision. Was a hypocrite in abusing corruptive powers but believed it was ok because they weren't the same corruptive powers that screwed his people up last time and was generally an asshole to people because he believed himself superior.
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  #5  
Old 04-17-2014, 07:32 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I think you are confusing liking Grom as a character and liking Grom as a person.

As a character, Grom is phenomenal. Possibly one of the best Blizzard ever wrote, and here is why. I think the key component of the character, if we disregard his immense badassitude, was his death and how he reacted in his final moments. Though I will mention that Grom pulled off the "grizzled badass" shtick effortlessly, and he absolutely oozed that style. Simply put, that badass flavor he carried suited him and was never overpowering like in some newer characters. He didn't carry some magical blade, he carried a simple axe. He isn't blessed by gods or magic, he is just a good fighter. He flew into fits or rage but could also control it when needed... and his ambiguous history as a war veteran was well done as well, it haunted him but he never truly changed either, not until the end at least.
Another important aspect is that all this characterization was naturally transmitted to us, through small character interactions and stylistic choices. It didn't tire us, it wasn't showed in our mouth by Mr. Exposition, but the story slowly built this image of Grom for us. It was very organic and it just feels better.

All of that is important because it prepared Grom as a character for his final test, his final moment. All of that, his past as an Old Horde butcher, his attempts at moderation, the inner struggles, the second fall to Mannoroth... it was all build-up to that final confrontation with Mannoroth.

And that confrontation is important because of what Mannoroth said, what his words represented:

"The boy believed you could be saved... But he didn't know, what burns within your soul... when in your heart, you know, we are the same!"

That and his previous claim over the whole orcish race invites Grommash to embrace the role of a mindless demonic berserker. Think about it, had Grommash stood down before Mannoroth, had he agreed to what the other was saying he would have been granted a position as a demonic lieutenant, leading a horde of fel pumped orcs across a thousand bloody battlefields, forever. You'd think that would be a dream to an orc Grom appears to be, during his Ashenvale times.

But he rejects that notion, screams bloody defiance and charges into Mannoroth, killing both. In that one gesture he refused all of the above, all of the bad things he did, which he could still do, he rejected there in the end. It is an immensely powerful storytelling moment, arguably the most powerful in Warcraft history. All of the build-up, all of the failures, the uncertainties of Grom's life story lead to that point, that climax. And boy is it ever so satisfying to see him reject all his inner demons (so perfectly amalgamated in the figure of Mannoroth and his infernal offer). That is why he said he freed himself, because it was a victory over all the bad things that held him chained, him personally. It was a single act of defiance, but defiance against everything that made him a bad person, personified by Mannoroth and the future he saw them sharing.

So yeah, that is why people love Grom. Because he is an outstanding character, whereas Garrosh is a sad mess of a character failed by the authors (though I kinda feel sympathy over that). In fact, Grom probably is a better person that Garrosh too, he had his flaws but he rejected them rather than embrace them. Well, our Grom was, alt!Grom has a chance to be an utter failure and a horrid attempt by Blizzard to milk a good character to ruin regardless of the fact that said character died.
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  #6  
Old 04-17-2014, 07:45 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
In fact, Grom probably is a better person that Garrosh too, he had his flaws but he rejected them rather than embrace them.
Fel pumped Grom imprisoned his troll allies while Garrosh straight up tried to kill them all.

*In By Demons be driven you find the trolls, from the Ashenvale missions, imprisoned in cages.
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  #7  
Old 04-17-2014, 10:39 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
Fel pumped Grom imprisoned his troll allies while Garrosh straight up tried to kill them all.

*In By Demons be driven you find the trolls, from the Ashenvale missions, imprisoned in cages.
Garrosh's troll allies were trying to kill him.
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Old 04-17-2014, 08:15 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
I think you are confusing liking Grom as a character and liking Grom as a person.

As a character, Grom is phenomenal. Possibly one of the best Blizzard ever wrote, and here is why. I think the key component of the character, if we disregard his immense badassitude, was his death and how he reacted in his final moments. Though I will mention that Grom pulled off the "grizzled badass" shtick effortlessly, and he absolutely oozed that style. Simply put, that badass flavor he carried suited him and was never overpowering like in some newer characters. He didn't carry some magical blade, he carried a simple axe. He isn't blessed by gods or magic, he is just a good fighter. He flew into fits or rage but could also control it when needed... and his ambiguous history as a war veteran was well done as well, it haunted him but he never truly changed either, not until the end at least.
Another important aspect is that all this characterization was naturally transmitted to us, through small character interactions and stylistic choices. It didn't tire us, it wasn't showed in our mouth by Mr. Exposition, but the story slowly built this image of Grom for us. It was very organic and it just feels better.

All of that is important because it prepared Grom as a character for his final test, his final moment. All of that, his past as an Old Horde butcher, his attempts at moderation, the inner struggles, the second fall to Mannoroth... it was all build-up to that final confrontation with Mannoroth.

And that confrontation is important because of what Mannoroth said, what his words represented:

"The boy believed you could be saved... But he didn't know, what burns within your soul... when in your heart, you know, we are the same!"

That and his previous claim over the whole orcish race invites Grommash to embrace the role of a mindless demonic berserker. Think about it, had Grommash stood down before Mannoroth, had he agreed to what the other was saying he would have been granted a position as a demonic lieutenant, leading a horde of fel pumped orcs across a thousand bloody battlefields, forever. You'd think that would be a dream to an orc Grom appears to be, during his Ashenvale times.

But he rejects that notion, screams bloody defiance and charges into Mannoroth, killing both. In that one gesture he refused all of the above, all of the bad things he did, which he could still do, he rejected there in the end. It is an immensely powerful storytelling moment, arguably the most powerful in Warcraft history. All of the build-up, all of the failures, the uncertainties of Grom's life story lead to that point, that climax. And boy is it ever so satisfying to see him reject all his inner demons (so perfectly amalgamated in the figure of Mannoroth and his infernal offer). That is why he said he freed himself, because it was a victory over all the bad things that held him chained, him personally. It was a single act of defiance, but defiance against everything that made him a bad person, personified by Mannoroth and the future he saw them sharing.

So yeah, that is why people love Grom. Because he is an outstanding character, whereas Garrosh is a sad mess of a character failed by the authors (though I kinda feel sympathy over that). In fact, Grom probably is a better person that Garrosh too, he had his flaws but he rejected them rather than embrace them. Well, our Grom was, alt!Grom has a chance to be an utter failure and a horrid attempt by Blizzard to milk a good character to ruin regardless of the fact that said character died.
Couldn't have put it better myself.
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  #9  
Old 04-17-2014, 08:36 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
I think you are confusing liking Grom as a character and liking Grom as a person.

As a character, Grom is phenomenal. Possibly one of the best Blizzard ever wrote, and here is why. I think the key component of the character, if we disregard his immense badassitude, was his death and how he reacted in his final moments. Though I will mention that Grom pulled off the "grizzled badass" shtick effortlessly, and he absolutely oozed that style. Simply put, that badass flavor he carried suited him and was never overpowering like in some newer characters. He didn't carry some magical blade, he carried a simple axe. He isn't blessed by gods or magic, he is just a good fighter. He flew into fits or rage but could also control it when needed... and his ambiguous history as a war veteran was well done as well, it haunted him but he never truly changed either, not until the end at least.
Another important aspect is that all this characterization was naturally transmitted to us, through small character interactions and stylistic choices. It didn't tire us, it wasn't showed in our mouth by Mr. Exposition, but the story slowly built this image of Grom for us. It was very organic and it just feels better.

All of that is important because it prepared Grom as a character for his final test, his final moment. All of that, his past as an Old Horde butcher, his attempts at moderation, the inner struggles, the second fall to Mannoroth... it was all build-up to that final confrontation with Mannoroth.

And that confrontation is important because of what Mannoroth said, what his words represented:

"The boy believed you could be saved... But he didn't know, what burns within your soul... when in your heart, you know, we are the same!"

That and his previous claim over the whole orcish race invites Grommash to embrace the role of a mindless demonic berserker. Think about it, had Grommash stood down before Mannoroth, had he agreed to what the other was saying he would have been granted a position as a demonic lieutenant, leading a horde of fel pumped orcs across a thousand bloody battlefields, forever. You'd think that would be a dream to an orc Grom appears to be, during his Ashenvale times.

But he rejects that notion, screams bloody defiance and charges into Mannoroth, killing both. In that one gesture he refused all of the above, all of the bad things he did, which he could still do, he rejected there in the end. It is an immensely powerful storytelling moment, arguably the most powerful in Warcraft history. All of the build-up, all of the failures, the uncertainties of Grom's life story lead to that point, that climax. And boy is it ever so satisfying to see him reject all his inner demons (so perfectly amalgamated in the figure of Mannoroth and his infernal offer). That is why he said he freed himself, because it was a victory over all the bad things that held him chained, him personally. It was a single act of defiance, but defiance against everything that made him a bad person, personified by Mannoroth and the future he saw them sharing.

So yeah, that is why people love Grom. Because he is an outstanding character, whereas Garrosh is a sad mess of a character failed by the authors (though I kinda feel sympathy over that). In fact, Grom probably is a better person that Garrosh too, he had his flaws but he rejected them rather than embrace them. Well, our Grom was, alt!Grom has a chance to be an utter failure and a horrid attempt by Blizzard to milk a good character to ruin regardless of the fact that said character died.
Bloody well said dude.

I'm sick and tired of this perpetuated nonsense that all orcs need to be craven murderers and monsters. That is all Garrosh was, he was an embarrassment to Groms sacrifice, how grom stood against the creature that corrupted him, and killed him, taking his life with him, but showing that he did truly want to be free, and not made into the monster mannaroth would make him into.

This is why whats happened in the orcs story of late has just been such a depressing matter. The idiotic stance on how orcs needing to eb craven bullies and killers by those morons who don't understand what grom gave his life for, and claiming this just because Garrosh was groms son.

Garrosh represents nothing his father gave his life for, or the freedom Grom wanted.
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