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  #51  
Old 06-14-2014, 09:37 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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De Echo Iles would'a been mo' impressive, mon.

Yup, no orcs in Durotar would've meant that the trolls get bigger isles. Orcs and Tauren in Mulgore and Trolls and Goblins in the jungle. (They couldn't have been left in Azshara with nobody near enough to supervise them.)
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  #52  
Old 06-14-2014, 09:39 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Then ditch the 'big city' idea and spread the surviving population out across Durotar and the Barrens into farming/hunting communities/settlements. Have them learn to farm and hunt (ranchers) until they can grow enough food to provide for something like a city.

Besides, with the famine, that won't be much of a problem anymore with so much of the orcish race dead.
Thing is, they actually picked up on it really quickly, which is something for which people never give them credit.

They started from a position in which their population had zero serviceable experience, having spent the entirety of their lives as demonic thralls used only to fight, or else had been born in raised in squalor in prison camps, where they were never taught any skills which would be conducive to building a thriving nation.

Then they trekked across the ocean (which, given the above, is downright miraculous), landed on a literally alien landscape, full of unfamiliar flora and fauna, much of which was actively hostile. They somehow managed to figure out everything that was edible and inedible in the area and set up farms and ranches to harvest them.

What they couldn't provide for themselves, they obtained with the use of trade, setting up deals with their neighbours on the continent and abroad, signing agreements with Night Elves, Goblins, Forsaken and Blood Elves to make up for whatever resources they couldn't produce in Durotar proper.

Then they lost entire swaths of their population fighting off demonic invasions, genocidal warmongering lunatics, the armies of the undead, sending off entire generations to save the planet by invading other planets and continents, suffering tremendous losses (primarily in their most productive members, with those being killed being those who'd normally be of working age).

It took their premier trading partner bullheadedly stone-walling them over something they didn't do, followed by the entire planet having a near death experience, causing a prolonged period of severe, magically induced drought, to create a situation in which their system actually failed and resulted in famine.

In the real world, the agricultural revolution took place over thousands of years, and it took the Horde about ten. Now you're bitching that they weren't also able to achieve perfect autarky capable of withstanding multiple natural, unnatural disasters and years of constant war in that time.
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  #53  
Old 06-14-2014, 09:51 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
yes, just like stormwind did with westfall.

Yeah because that didn't require a hugeass war and a doomsday cult involvement to fail so...

The orcs had the...ermm...duty to try to take the resources they needed. The Night Elves have the right to kill their asses all the way to Oggrimmar since they attacked their lands.
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  #54  
Old 06-14-2014, 09:57 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Yeah because that didn't require a hugeass war and a doomsday cult involvement to fail so...
And it took multiple huge-ass wars, a doomsday cult, and the planet almost exploding for Durotar to fail.
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  #55  
Old 06-14-2014, 09:59 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
And it took multiple huge-ass wars, a doomsday cult, and the planet almost exploding for Durotar to fail.
more to my side
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  #56  
Old 06-14-2014, 10:03 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
more to my side
I don't understand your side.

It's not Stormwind's fault that their system failed so utterly under duress, but it is Orgrimmar's fault when their system fails when under even more duress?

I'm just saying the "The Orcs weren't ready for civilization" argument is a load of crap, considering that what they managed to achieve in such a short period of time, and under so much pressure, is nothing short of astounding.
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  #57  
Old 06-14-2014, 11:05 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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I don't understand your side.

It's not Stormwind's fault that their system failed so utterly under duress, but it is Orgrimmar's fault when their system fails when under even more duress?

I'm just saying the "The Orcs weren't ready for civilization" argument is a load of crap, considering that what they managed to achieve in such a short period of time, and under so much pressure, is nothing short of astounding.
The argument that "X people is not ready for civilization" also reeks of real world racism and would send any right-minded anthropologist's spine in shivers if they heard that. There's just so many things wrong with that idea, I'm not sure where to begin.
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  #58  
Old 06-14-2014, 11:06 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Thing is, they actually picked up on it really quickly, which is something for which people never give them credit.

They started from a position in which their population had zero serviceable experience, having spent the entirety of their lives as demonic thralls used only to fight, or else had been born in raised in squalor in prison camps, where they were never taught any skills which would be conducive to building a thriving nation.

Then they trekked across the ocean (which, given the above, is downright miraculous), landed on a literally alien landscape, full of unfamiliar flora and fauna, much of which was actively hostile. They somehow managed to figure out everything that was edible and inedible in the area and set up farms and ranches to harvest them.

What they couldn't provide for themselves, they obtained with the use of trade, setting up deals with their neighbours on the continent and abroad, signing agreements with Night Elves, Goblins, Forsaken and Blood Elves to make up for whatever resources they couldn't produce in Durotar proper.

Then they lost entire swaths of their population fighting off demonic invasions, genocidal warmongering lunatics, the armies of the undead, sending off entire generations to save the planet by invading other planets and continents, suffering tremendous losses (primarily in their most productive members, with those being killed being those who'd normally be of working age).

It took their premier trading partner bullheadedly stone-walling them over something they didn't do, followed by the entire planet having a near death experience, causing a prolonged period of severe, magically induced drought, to create a situation in which their system actually failed and resulted in famine.

In the real world, the agricultural revolution took place over thousands of years, and it took the Horde about ten. Now you're bitching that they weren't also able to achieve perfect autarky capable of withstanding multiple natural, unnatural disasters and years of constant war in that time.


Apparently they need to learn it again because about all that it seems they kept was 'we need this, you have it, we will kill you and take it! RRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAWWWWRRRRRRRRRRRR!' They also didn't learn enough about it to do it well otherwise they would have been better prepared and not so dependent on foreign sources of food and wood just to survive. If the Night elves cutting off trade hurt the orcs so bad, then the orcs were doing something wrong in providing for themselves. In ten years, the orcs couldn't overcome that barrier (because of Blizzard, damn them), if they had, then the cessation of trade wouldn't have hurt them nearly as much as it would have.

As for the fighting off demonic invasions, genocidal warmongering lunatics, the armies of the undead, sending off entire generations to save the planet by invading other planets and continents, suffering tremendous losses (primarily in their most productive members, with those being killed being those who'd normally be of working age), well Kellick, EVERY race on Azeroth has been doing that, and they survived the cataclysm well enough they didn't need to go invading anyone just to survive. The orcs aren't unique in suffering from those problems, so that's not as much of an excuse as you seem to think it was. That's why I said if the big city thing isn't working, then the best thing would be to spread the population out so it is more sustainable and they can build up a proper foundation to their society (and maybe change their damned culture at the same time. Orc culture is poisonous.)

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yes, just like stormwind did with westfall.
*insert Moonbrook picture*
You might want to consider that if Vanessa and the Defias hadn't been intentionally sabotaging the relief effort in Westfall and intercepting the supply wagons, Westfall would have been fairly well off. The economic and political mess there is almost purely the Defias's fault, not Stormwind or Sentinel Hill's fault. if the Defias hadn't been screwing things up, those refugees would have likely found work; either working on a farm, helping build the wall, resettling Moonbrook or building businesses. There would have been something they could have done to earn a living that wasn't disruptive.

Quote:
It's not Stormwind's fault that their system failed so utterly under duress, but it is Orgrimmar's fault when their system fails when under even more duress?

I'm just saying the "The Orcs weren't ready for civilization" argument is a load of crap, considering that what they managed to achieve in such a short period of time, and under so much pressure, is nothing short of astounding.
Stormwind didn't collapse or fall apart, it had enough farms to survive. Orgrimmar didn't, but even when the effects were felt, at least some of the citizens of Stormwind left to find places with food and/or work. They didn't stick around and sit on their asses like the orcs did. As far as I know, most of the orcs in Orgrimmar -stayed- in Org. They didn't leave for other areas to try and find food, they just sat and bitched about it rather than trying to do something about it (not including invasion. I don't consider that reasonable).

And yes the argument that the orcs aren't ready for civilization is valid when their method of fixing resource problems is 'KILL AND TAKE THEIR LAND!' The orc culture is barbaric and far too concentrated on warfare and glory in war to be considered really civilized. They shouldn't have to invade and conquer anyone just to fix a resource issue. Now before you reply 'other cultures did the same thing', please note I don't consider -any- culture doing that to be really civilized or cultured, nor do I consider such actions ethical, moral or reasonable or valid. If you feel you have to invade someone just so you can take their land/resources, then you've lost the argument as far as I am concerned.
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  #59  
Old 06-14-2014, 02:16 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
I don't understand your side.

It's not Stormwind's fault that their system failed so utterly under duress, but it is Orgrimmar's fault when their system fails when under even more duress?

I'm just saying the "The Orcs weren't ready for civilization" argument is a load of crap, considering that what they managed to achieve in such a short period of time, and under so much pressure, is nothing short of astounding.
If Oggrimmar system lasted longer than SWs using a system that Kyrnd suggests isn't really good considering what the Barrens have to offer, then using the Stormwindian system which would be better for a land of scare resources would have made them last longer or not fall at all in that aspect.

But nope, let's make a high manteinance hugeass city
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  #60  
Old 06-14-2014, 08:25 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
If the Night elves cutting off trade hurt the orcs so bad, then the orcs were doing something wrong in providing for themselves. In ten years, the orcs couldn't overcome that barrier (because of Blizzard, damn them), if they had, then the cessation of trade wouldn't have hurt them nearly as much as it would have.
Yeah, it's almost as though it coincided with an extended period of magical drought on their region and their region alone which was symptomatic of a problem so severe it almost caused the planet to explode.

Oh wait.

Again, you're complaining that they weren't able to achieve absolute autarky from a position in which they had absolutely nothing in less than a single generation during which they happened to be under constant duress and almost constantly being attacked.

To simply call that idea laughable is a courtesy it doesn't deserve.
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  #61  
Old 06-14-2014, 08:59 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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The incompetence and aggression of the Horde is just as much a plot device as the Alliance's complacency and naivete.
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  #62  
Old 06-15-2014, 12:19 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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The incompetence and aggression of the Horde is just as much a plot device as the Alliance's complacency and naivete.
Which honestly stops me from giving a shit at these developers contrived writings
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  #63  
Old 06-15-2014, 06:18 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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can't we all just agree that orcs are really shitty and that they should just go away? Like, put them on the Exodar and something and throw them away.
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  #64  
Old 06-15-2014, 07:33 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Yeah, it's almost as though it coincided with an extended period of magical drought on their region and their region alone which was symptomatic of a problem so severe it almost caused the planet to explode.

Oh wait.

Again, you're complaining that they weren't able to achieve absolute autarky from a position in which they had absolutely nothing in less than a single generation during which they happened to be under constant duress and almost constantly being attacked.

To simply call that idea laughable is a courtesy it doesn't deserve.


You know what Kellick? I don't give a fuck about that. Why? Because the orcs never wanted that. Ever. They are a fucking basket case that ALWAYS blames others for their fuck up-s. You whine, bitch and moan about them not achieving autarky from where they were. So what? The orcs didn't ever want any fucking autarky where they were self sufficient. Thrall certainly didn't ort he would have pushed for farms and ranches from the start and NOT forced most of the orcs into a large city in the middle of a damned desert without enough resources to back it up. Garrosh might have but only at the expense of everyone else being forced to give -their- lands and resources to the orcs, even then it is seriously doubtful that it would have lasted more than a few generations given how much orcs waste everything. Ever since the orcs went on their blood bender with Ner'zul, they haven't given a god damn about achieving autarky. All they do is consume far more than they create and they then try to make up the difference by murdering other people and taking their stuff. So you can rant all you want about them not achieving autarky when it's never been what the orcs themselves want. If they had wanted that, they'd have done it from the fucking START!

And don't tell me it wasn't possible either. They had access to skilled farmers. Thrall knew of the importance of farming fort the basis of a civilized culture. The orcs could have fucking -asked- for help from the people of Theramore, from the Alliance (they were at peace, so it was possible and the agricultural experts -would- have been sent), from the forsaken, many who were farmers in life, from the Blood elves too. Hell, they could have gotten help from the Argents, so please don't say there was no one they could have gotten help from. And the time factor isn't an excuse either. Ten years is more than enough to have established enough farms and ranches. The orcs managed to establish themselves without that so establishing them wouldn't have been too much of a challenge or enjoyable for the orcs since Thrall was trying to re-establish the hunter/gather, warrior and glory society the orcs had before, but also trying to make it capable of supporting a large capital city. Apparently farming isn't glorious enough.
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