Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-18-2014, 09:56 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

Elune
Noitora's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,661
BattleTag: Chillman#1339

Default Factions and Comic Book Characters

If the Alliance is the Captain America faction, why do we often get Punisher like plots where they're driven by anger and revenge? What type of faction is the Horde? Wolverine? At best the save the world but in ways people don't like. At worst, Magneto. Fueled by personal goals, or trying to create a better world for their own.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-18-2014, 10:17 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,085

Default

The problem with type-casting an entire group of people is that it's impossible to create dynamic character relationships within that group. There is no Nick Fury or Black Widow to the Alliance's Captain America. It's impossible to be Captain America and remain interesting without having the ability to make it clear what you actually stand for and what you're capable of.

Add the fact that the Alliance doesn't even have villains to play off of (the Horde ignores the Alliance outside of treating it like fodder), and it's got no characterization whatsoever. Just the finger wagging neutrals that never give the Horde the same treatment!

What's more, Warcraft III did HORRIBLE damage to the Alliance's image and it's ability to assert itself. Everyone is afraid of being Arthas so everyone ends up not doing anything. Which is completely unfair because while Arthas did bad things for questionable reasons before picking up Frostmourne, he was not evil incarnate. It took a magic sword, a dues ex machine, to cause him to heel turn! He did not fall Darth Vader-style (Darth Vader didn't even fall Darth Vader-style).

Why can't the Alliance be the faction that goes out, does what needs to be done, win the day, and then goes home to it's hot elf wife? Because in most fantasy settings, that's what the hero does. He kicks the bad guy's ass and then he gets his elf princess!

Last edited by Westlee; 04-18-2014 at 10:19 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-18-2014, 10:27 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

Elune
Gurzog's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,992
BattleTag: Hulk#2393

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
Why can't the Alliance be the faction that goes out, does what needs to be done, win the day, and then goes home to it's hot elf wife? Because in most fantasy settings, that's what the hero does. He kicks the bad guy's ass and then he gets his elf princess!
Rhonin?
__________________
Btag is Hulk#23939
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-18-2014, 10:28 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

Elune
Ganishka's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 8,282
BattleTag: Ganishka #1520

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
The problem with type-casting an entire group of people is that it's impossible to create dynamic character relationships within that group. There is no Nick Fury or Black Widow to the Alliance's Captain America. It's impossible to be Captain America and remain interesting without having the ability to make it clear what you actually stand for and what you're capable of.

Add the fact that the Alliance doesn't even have villains to play off of (the Horde ignores the Alliance outside of treating it like fodder), and it's got no characterization whatsoever. Just the finger wagging neutrals that never give the Horde the same treatment!

What's more, Warcraft III did HORRIBLE damage to the Alliance's image and it's ability to assert itself. Everyone is afraid of being Arthas so everyone ends up not doing anything. Which is completely unfair because while Arthas did bad things for questionable reasons before picking up Frostmourne, he was not evil incarnate. It took a magic sword, a dues ex machine, to cause him to heel turn! He did not fall Darth Vader-style (Darth Vader didn't even fall Darth Vader-style).

Why can't the Alliance be the faction that goes out, does what needs to be done, win the day, and then goes home to it's hot elf wife? Because in most fantasy settings, that's what the hero does. He kicks the bad guy's ass and then he gets his elf princess!
Stop taking all of the elf women, you anti-elf bigot! Y-you Elfophobic Garithos wannabe!
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Baras
A blind, deaf, comatose, lobotomy patient could feel MY ANGER!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowordfun
The next time you feel like you're about to be triggered, put the barrel in your mouth.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-18-2014, 10:31 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,085

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurzog View Post
Rhonin?
There is only one Rhonin as far as I'm concerned. That being the one that turned Deathwing into a 15 year old girl by holding a magical girl figurine in front of the Dragonsoul and firing it at him!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Stop taking all of the elf women, you anti-elf bigot! Y-you Elfophobic Garithos wannabe!
To be honest, I prefer gnomes or goblins. I like the short smart ones...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-19-2014, 06:20 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

Sentinel Queen
JorgeAxe's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 906

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
Why can't the Alliance be the faction that goes out, does what needs to be done, win the day, and then goes home to it's hot elf wife? Because in most fantasy settings, that's what the hero does. He kicks the bad guy's ass and then he gets his elf princess!
I'm rather sick of human male, and Elf female relationships.

Lets have Human female/Elf Male, or Orc Gnome male/Goblin female.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis
It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-19-2014, 06:25 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
I'm rather sick of human male, and Elf female relationships.
I'm kind of tired of it too.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-19-2014, 06:37 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

Sentinel Queen
JorgeAxe's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 906

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
I'm kind of tired of it too.
There should be an elf npc that complains about human males coming to town to pick up their women.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis
It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-19-2014, 06:59 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
There should be an elf npc that complains about human males coming to town to pick up their women.
Maybe the elves themselves don't find humans very attractive due to what they perceive as the race's comparative immaturity. Elves who do go for humans are seen as perverse.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-19-2014, 07:03 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

Elune
Gurzog's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,992
BattleTag: Hulk#2393

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
There is only one Rhonin as far as I'm concerned. That being the one that turned Deathwing into a 15 year old girl by holding a magical girl figurine in front of the Dragonsoul and firing it at him!
Mag'har are brown elves you know.
__________________
Btag is Hulk#23939
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-19-2014, 07:08 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,085

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
There should be an elf npc that complains about human males coming to town to pick up their women.
And points you to where they're buried.

Elf princess was just the stereotypical pairing. There are of course variations on the hero's fate after he's achieved victory. Sometimes he dies. Sometimes he fades into obscurity. Other times he has a bittersweet parting with his friends and loved ones.

Basically if you've ever played the Legend of Zelda series, you see where the various Links and Zeldas end up.

Like Hero of Time Link continues his adventures and quite possibly ended up with a harem ending. Seriously, look at how all the races, including the Fairies and Zoras have taken on more...Hylian traits.

Twilight Princess Link...well, if you played the games, you know what happened to him.

Anyway, my point is the Alliance doesn't ever get a good ending. There is no fist pumping moment where you can say "hey, maybe we aren't doomed!" You take a step back to look at the Alliance and every member, past and present, and you check where they are and where they're headed...yeah, it's not a pretty picture.

And this is the objective truth. It's not like Warhammer 40k where everything is horribly exaggerated (to comical effect) and the DOOOOM that is coming is probably manageable in the context of the entire setting. Even for a faction that prides itself on it's inefficiency and corruption, the Imperium of Man, it's still leagues more pro-active and driven to actually SUCCEED than the Alliance ever has been.

On the other side of the things, the Horde are basically Warhammer 40k Orks. Those guys are never miserable! They aren't going to go extinct any freakin' time soon. No matter how badly they're beaten, anywhere there is a single boy is a potential WAAAGGGH!! waiting to happen!

Basically the Horde in Warcraft play by an entirely different set of rules than the Alliance. Not only culturally, but narratively. Shit don't stick to the Horde! Nothing keeps them down! There is a limitless amount of energy pouring into the Horde and whatever their racial traits and characteristics are, it doesn't matter, that's just flavor, they all benefit from the same energy!

Although this is really off-topic.

Again, the Alliance can't move as long as it doesn't have anything to interact with. It doesn't interact with itself. It doesn't interact with villains. It's bogged down by the history of one character who really shouldn't be held up as anything other than a victim of circumstances that probably wouldn't happen again in a million years.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-19-2014, 07:11 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

Sentinel Queen
JorgeAxe's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 906

Default

Conquering Orgrimmar wasn't a fist-pumping good ending for you?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis
It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-19-2014, 07:11 PM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

Drunk Assassin
Thunderbraid's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,153

Default

Dwelves.

I'll let that sit with you lot.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-19-2014, 07:14 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
Dwelves.

I'll let that sit with you lot.
In a way that might be a better match. Both races are long-lived (at least, blood/high elves are pretty close to dwarves in lifespan). There's the appearance issue, but the lifespan issue might be more important.

A dapper Sin'dorei gentleman taking a bonnie dwarven lass as his wife. It could work.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-19-2014, 07:23 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,085

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Conquering Orgrimmar wasn't a fist-pumping good ending for you?
No, it was a return to a status quo that had never been the least bit favorable to the Alliance.

The Horde defeated and scattered into the wilderness, that would have been fist-pump worthy. Like the ending of Two Towers where after a brutal siege that left hundreds of people dead, the uruk hai are driven into the forest only to get mulched by some very angry trees.

Varian was mostly ignored by the Horde leaders and while he was really angry at them, he declares an unconditional cease-fire...and that was it. Just looking at the scene, you see how much of a farce it was. Even if you ignored absolutely everything that happened in Cata and MoP, Varian walks away from SoO with nothing to show for it.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-19-2014, 07:42 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

Elune
Ganishka's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 8,282
BattleTag: Ganishka #1520

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
I'm rather sick of human male, and Elf female relationships.

Lets have Human female/Elf Male, or Orc Gnome male/Goblin female.
That, or just stop species mixing altogether. I just want to see simple, good, old-fashioned Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Orcs and such.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Baras
A blind, deaf, comatose, lobotomy patient could feel MY ANGER!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowordfun
The next time you feel like you're about to be triggered, put the barrel in your mouth.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-19-2014, 07:49 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

Elune
Millenia's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,830
BattleTag: Millenia#1386

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Conquering Orgrimmar wasn't a fist-pumping good ending for you?
So did the Horde. What's it matter?
__________________
"All right, I'll get that kid to eat. Where's my screw driver and my plumber's helper? I'll open up his mouth and I'll shove it in."


The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-20-2014, 12:36 AM
Dawnfeld Dawnfeld is offline

Keeper of the Grove
Dawnfeld's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 644

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Conquering Orgrimmar wasn't a fist-pumping good ending for you?
IF something had been done about Hillsbrad, Andorhal and Stromgarde, then maybe it could've been. And if we had had a role in taking back Ashenvale and Gilneas. But as it is, it's good, but not enough.
__________________

"...For my holy wrath will know no bounds..."

Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-20-2014, 04:31 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

Elune
Drusus's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Greymane's Offensive
Posts: 8,699

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Conquering Orgrimmar wasn't a fist-pumping good ending for you?
kosak pls go
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feltongue View Post
you're the edgemaster 9000 with the leet memes who's close second to Gurzog in shitposting.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-20-2014, 04:41 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

Eternal Watcher
Yaskaleh's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: The heart of Scania
Posts: 18,625
BattleTag: Yaskaleh#1817

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Conquering Orgrimmar wasn't a fist-pumping good ending for you?
When the fuck did we conquer Orgrimmar? All I've seen is that we were allowed to help you retake it from yourselves. We permanently lost Aszhara as a result, we haven't seen anything showing us taking back all of Ashenvale or Gilneas. Hillsbrad and other areas of Lordaeron are still occupied by the Forsaken Reich whom continues to experiment on humans, desecrate their dead remains and put them in concentration camps.
In the next expansion we have to help you fix another one of your messes, which does have the boon of actually doing something for the Draenei, indirectly fixing another one of your messes, that of the Draenei genocide.
__________________

Say no to genocide!
Save the Nightborne!

Last edited by Yaskaleh; 04-20-2014 at 04:49 AM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
critical thinking, faction bias

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.