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Old 05-02-2015, 10:38 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Default Dark Irons vs. the Orcs

So if we go on the assumption that the Dark Irons actually put up a fight against the Horde when they came to Blackrock Mountain (whether it was vs. th Blackhand Horde in the First War or the Doomhammer Horde late in the Second War) then what do the Dark Irons look like at that point?

Because UBRS, Blackwing Lair, and Blackwing Descent (in addition to BRD/BRC) all give the impression that the Dark Irons really hollowed out the whole damn mountain, something that they did 100% under the reign of Ragnaros, without any indication that they'd really engaged in open warfare against the other dwarven clans (or anyone else for that matter) since the War of the Three Hammers.

That leads me to believe that when the Horde took control of part of the mountain, they did so by evicting the Dark Iron, and then with Nefarian's assistance, Rend was able to seal the deal and cement control over the section they had. But that means there was a LOT of territory that the Dark Irons fought to control, and it feels like me like that fight has never really been given due attention.

So what do the Dark Iron look like in their prime, with Ragnaros growing more powerful within the Molten Core and with the whole mountain under their control? Did Thaurissan have other heirs that the orcs killed? Was this where Cho'gall first came into contact with the Old Gods and their servants among the Dark Iron?

I feel like the area is ripe for development, so I wanted to ask if anyone else had ideas about the scenario.
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Old 05-02-2015, 11:24 PM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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My memory may be wrong, but Doomhammer does say that the dwarves in the mountain were 'driven into the depths', which implies battle to me.

Like Stormwind, the Dark Irons were probably taken by surprise by sudden greenskins everywhere. Which actually puts them on the same wavelength as Stormwind, funnily enough. Especially if they were actually attacked in tandem during the First War.

Actually makes them look better than the Bronzebeards, who despite being attacked after Stormwind fell, still had no idea about the orcs that also managed to defeat the Dark Irons, too.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me etc.

Even though we don't actually know if the Bronzebeards knew the Horde was coming. Because as is typical with Blizzard they just completely brushed over the whole 'Dark Irons and Bronzebeards got raped as well' in favour of Stormwind going to other humans and completely bypassing the middle of the continent, and not even sending warning, apparently.

Truth be told, and trying to sound as unbiased as possible. The Horde's war for Khaz Modan desperately needs some attention because at the moment it's bordering on a glaring plothole.

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Old 05-03-2015, 01:09 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Vanilla carried the impression that the Dark Irons' emergence from beneath the mountain was a pretty recent development, and they hadn't been significantly seen or heard from by the outside world since the War of the Three Hammers ended. Consequently, their reappearance carried the implication that they were coming out to prepare for something.

As whatever impending action or event spurred on their return wasn't about to happen yet, Thaurissan and Ragnaros probably had them fight off the Horde long enough to seal up Shadowforge City for the duration of the orcs' initial occupation in Blackrock Mountain, and only commanded them to emerge and take back the rest of the mountain as part of whatever machinations incited their general reemergence into the outside world.
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Old 05-03-2015, 06:13 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Vanilla carried the impression that the Dark Irons' emergence from beneath the mountain was a pretty recent development, and they hadn't been significantly seen or heard from by the outside world since the War of the Three Hammers ended. Consequently, their reappearance carried the implication that they were coming out to prepare for something.

As whatever impending action or event spurred on their return wasn't about to happen yet, Thaurissan and Ragnaros probably had them fight off the Horde long enough to seal up Shadowforge City for the duration of the orcs' initial occupation in Blackrock Mountain, and only commanded them to emerge and take back the rest of the mountain as part of whatever machinations incited their general reemergence into the outside world.
The Dark Irons clearly had towns in the area around the foot of the mountain. The gate from Redridge to Burning Steppes isn't in good shape. I wonder if the ruined towns in the Burning Steppes weren't a product of the Ragnaros appearing rather than the first Hordes rampaging through the area. Likewise the gates that go into Blackrock Mountain aren't well maintained either.

The Dark Iron kingdom seems to be made up of the Burning Steppes and the Searing Gorge. There seems to be little interest paid by the Dark Irons to the Badlands.
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Old 05-03-2015, 06:16 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Dark Irons probably weren't quite as militarily developed back then as they are now because Hundreds of years had gone by since the last war and no one wanted to go into the Gorge or Steppes and deal with all the flaming nonsense there.

Having an army of vicious orcs drop on them out of nowhere probably took them by surprise even if they did have a basic standing force around.


They were probably more focused on... fixing Ragnaros's botched summoning or whatever it was they were doing in Vanilla and such.


(Rag says too soon when he's summoned, so I can only assume they were trying to fix the summoning so he can comfortably move outside the core to take over the world)
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Old 05-03-2015, 06:34 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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But that means there was a LOT of territory that the Dark Irons fought to control, and it feels like me like that fight has never really been given due attention.
Cue Grackle's complaint that the Khaz Modan front of the Second War (and pre-Second War, and First War) has a lot of weird/uncertain areas left because Blizzard never paid it much attention.

The biggest question in my mind being: if the orcs encountered Dark Iron dwarves and took Blackrock Spire from them... then did the Dark Irons retreat to a state of siege beneath Blackrock Spire akin to Ironforge's, or did they vanish there mysteriously and the orcs never realized it because orcs don't explore places or figure things out?


EDIT: Related is the fact that the Alliance dealt the Horde a crushing blow at Blackrock Spire, chased their remnants to the Dark Portal, then won a final victory and destroyed the Portal, taking huge amounts of prisoners--with a few survivors fleeing through the Portal to Draenor or fleeing with Kilrogg's Bleeding Hollow... and then, miraculously, another fraction of those survivors under Rend and Maim were somehow able to take control of Blackrock Spire again, and this surviving fraction of the Horde was able to hold Blackrock Spire from the victorious Alliance and Stormwind throughout the next... what, 30 years of history? It connects to the possibility that Horde-controlled Stonard never fell, never ever in history, even in the decades after Alliance victory and the Horde's supposed destruction.

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Old 05-03-2015, 06:38 AM
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My understanding was that Ragnaros' summoning pretty much decimated the Dark Irons, and then Ragnaros enslaved the rest of them. As such, they had neither numbers nor organization to keep a strong army and maintain their cities.

When the Horde came, the orcs took Blackrock Spire for them and pushed the Dark Irons to the Depths. There was a constant guerrila between both forces, but the dwarves were just too weakened, and since the orcs weren't able to take the Depths, Ragnaros didn't care about them.

With the Horde defeated, the Dark Irons had the opportunity to get out of the Depths and expand. Thus they reemerged into the world and, learning how weak they were, began to fortify themselves to avoid another invasion.
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Old 05-03-2015, 07:16 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
And then, miraculously, another fraction of those survivors under Rend and Maim were somehow able to take control of Blackrock Spire again, and this surviving fraction of the Horde was able to hold Blackrock Spire from the victorious Alliance and Stormwind throughout the next... what, 30 years of history?
As far as we know the Dark Horde remnents within BRM never lost control and the Horde's defeat.

The Horde was defeated outside, if I remember correctly, and the Alliance never went in and cleaned them out. They had lost their leader and didn't bother to go in and finish out those who were left inside. They just chased them back into DP and that was that.

Now, in regards to the Alliance and Stormwind. Here is where things get fun and tie directly into BTDP.

Stormwind and the Alliance were in full rebuild mode. And the Alliance was already starting to fall apart because of the defeat of the Horde.

Nef and his sister made their pact with Dark Horde and Onyxia ensured that SW didn't pay what was going on in BRD any mind, besides the rebuilding and internal issues that SW was having.
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Old 05-03-2015, 08:58 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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So what we've got so far is:
  1. The Dark Iron were caught flat-footed by the Horde blitzkrieg and lost the Spire, but have held the Depths since then.
  2. The Dark Iron haven't had a standing military since the Three Hammers, and just sealed themselves up in the Depths when the Horde showed up.
  3. The Dark Iron strategically retreated to the Depths because Ragnaros didn't care about the upper reaches of the mountain.

Also, Rend and Maim and their Dark Horde held the spire after Doomhammer's defeat specifically by the grace of the Black Dragonflight (a.k.a. Nefarian bolstering their forces with dragonkin and Onyxia keeping Stormwind occupied), which is consistent with Maim's fate in the RPG.

Also, yeah, answering the question of how Khaz Modan and the Doomhammer Horde essentially fought a non-existent war would also be something to do. I'm at the point where I'd retcon out the Horde ever going THROUGH Khaz Modan and just have them sail up the eastern side of the continent. That allows WC2 elements like a fight over Dun Modr and refineries near Grim Batol to stay consistent without the orcs actually fighting through the Bronzebeards directly.
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Old 05-03-2015, 04:36 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
So what we've got so far is:
  1. The Dark Iron were caught flat-footed by the Horde blitzkrieg and lost the Spire, but have held the Depths since then.
  2. The Dark Iron haven't had a standing military since the Three Hammers, and just sealed themselves up in the Depths when the Horde showed up.
  3. The Dark Iron strategically retreated to the Depths because Ragnaros didn't care about the upper reaches of the mountain.

Also, Rend and Maim and their Dark Horde held the spire after Doomhammer's defeat specifically by the grace of the Black Dragonflight (a.k.a. Nefarian bolstering their forces with dragonkin and Onyxia keeping Stormwind occupied), which is consistent with Maim's fate in the RPG.

Also, yeah, answering the question of how Khaz Modan and the Doomhammer Horde essentially fought a non-existent war would also be something to do. I'm at the point where I'd retcon out the Horde ever going THROUGH Khaz Modan and just have them sail up the eastern side of the continent. That allows WC2 elements like a fight over Dun Modr and refineries near Grim Batol to stay consistent without the orcs actually fighting through the Bronzebeards directly.
Do we know when the Loch Modan dam was built? Or the statues in the Valley of the Kings?

Perhaps it would be easier to say they didn't siege Ironforge directly because the Dwarves just held tight in the Dun Morogh mountains? Or maybe the perivous lore was that the Orcish army did advance into Dun Morogh? I can't imagine that going from Stormwind to Dark Iron Lands to the cold of the Dun Morogh mountains was easy.
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Old 05-03-2015, 07:05 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Do we know when the Loch Modan dam was built? Or the statues in the Valley of the Kings?

Perhaps it would be easier to say they didn't siege Ironforge directly because the Dwarves just held tight in the Dun Morogh mountains? Or maybe the perivous lore was that the Orcish army did advance into Dun Morogh? I can't imagine that going from Stormwind to Dark Iron Lands to the cold of the Dun Morogh mountains was easy.
I get the overwhelming sense that Franclorn Forgewright did all of his big momentous works before the War of Three Hammers, since he claims ownership over the Stonewrought method that created the dam, Shadowforge City, and basically everything in Blackrock Mountain.

... which I realize now is kinda confusing. Wasn't Blackrock Mountain CREATED by Ragnaros' summoning? Wouldn't that imply that everything withing the mountain has to happen AFTER the War of Three Hammers?

Why would the Bronzebeards willingly employ a Dark Iron stonesmith to craft such a huge piece of architecture? Why would Forgewright enjoy such a place of honor in the mountain if he'd betrayed his clan to work for the Bronzebeards?

It could be I'm wrong about the timeline here. If Shadowforge and the rest of the Dark Iron construction in Blackrock Mountain is older than the War of Three Hammers, it makes more sense that the upper reaches would be mostly abandoned, since the clan was really decimated by the end of that war and wouldn't need all of that space. Moreover, Ragnaros would want all of the Dark Irons as close to his influence as possible, which means closer to the Core.

Hmm.
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Old 05-03-2015, 07:46 PM
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I get the overwhelming sense that Franclorn Forgewright did all of his big momentous works before the War of Three Hammers, since he claims ownership over the Stonewrought method that created the dam, Shadowforge City, and basically everything in Blackrock Mountain.

... which I realize now is kinda confusing. Wasn't Blackrock Mountain CREATED by Ragnaros' summoning? Wouldn't that imply that everything withing the mountain has to happen AFTER the War of Three Hammers?

Why would the Bronzebeards willingly employ a Dark Iron stonesmith to craft such a huge piece of architecture? Why would Forgewright enjoy such a place of honor in the mountain if he'd betrayed his clan to work for the Bronzebeards?

It could be I'm wrong about the timeline here. If Shadowforge and the rest of the Dark Iron construction in Blackrock Mountain is older than the War of Three Hammers, it makes more sense that the upper reaches would be mostly abandoned, since the clan was really decimated by the end of that war and wouldn't need all of that space. Moreover, Ragnaros would want all of the Dark Irons as close to his influence as possible, which means closer to the Core.

Hmm.
Maybe he did works for High King Modimus Anvilmar (like the Dam), then he joined his clan during the War of the Three Hammers.

After, Ragy created the Spire, Franclorn was pivotal in the construction of Shadowforge and the upper levels.
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Old 05-03-2015, 09:10 PM
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This is the sort of thing that the RPG was good for (sorry). That or give us War of the Three Hammers and Troll Wars novelizations.
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Old 05-03-2015, 10:13 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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So what's the consensus on the Dark Iron master plan, generally speaking? They get enslaved by Ragnaros, hollow out the mountain building a new capital for themselves, starting building up an army bolstered by war golems and mole machines, utilizing superior technology with thorium-enriched technology...

Regardless of how the Horde/Dark Horde encroachment impacted their plans, it seems kinda odd that Ragnaros would enslave the Dark Iron and direct them to build him an army when the forces we see him marshall in the Firelands seem like they would be appropriately devastating on their own. What does he need the Dark Iron for? Shock troops? Infiltration?

And the big question I've always had about the Dark Iron/Ragnaros relationship is this: why is it that virtually none of the crap that Rag has walking around in the Core has any logical egress OUT of the Core, through the city, to the surface world? Molten Giants, Corehounds, flamewakers, Geddon... they've all got no exit.
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Old 05-03-2015, 10:26 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Wasn't Shadowforge City and everything else built prior to their enslavement by Rag?

Rag was always a last ditch effort to turn the tide of battle and make the DI the winners.

As for the armies and all that, I thought that Rag was taking his time in building up his forces and once his time was ready (Too soon! Too soon!) Then he and the DI would emerge and lay waste to Azeroth.

But he evidently wanted to be leading the armies or something.
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Old 05-03-2015, 10:51 PM
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Wasn't Shadowforge City and everything else built prior to their enslavement by Rag?
That's the confusing part, isn't it? If Blackrock Mountain was created by Ragnaros' summoning, then the city wouldn't logically have survived the devastation. Hence the city must have been built AFTER Rag was summoned.

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Rag was always a last ditch effort to turn the tide of battle and make the DI the winners.

As for the armies and all that, I thought that Rag was taking his time in building up his forces and once his time was ready (Too soon! Too soon!) Then he and the DI would emerge and lay waste to Azeroth.

But he evidently wanted to be leading the armies or something.
Okay, so, the DI were going to be ground troops in Rag's invasion of the surface. And Khaz Modan would probably be one of the first places they'd hit. So yeah, the Dark Irons would have their victory, but ultimately it would all mean nothing because Ragnaros wanted to scorch the whole world anyway.

Makes the Dark Iron downright nihilistic, when you think about it. Why build works that will stand the test of time when your boss just wants to watch the world burn?
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Old 05-03-2015, 11:12 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Okay, so, the DI were going to be ground troops in Rag's invasion of the surface. And Khaz Modan would probably be one of the first places they'd hit. So yeah, the Dark Irons would have their victory, but ultimately it would all mean nothing because Ragnaros wanted to scorch the whole world anyway.

Makes the Dark Iron downright nihilistic, when you think about it. Why build works that will stand the test of time when your boss just wants to watch the world burn?
That's not new. The Twilight's Hammer, the Elemental Lords were all nihilistic. Rag and the rest just want to go back in time to when they (chaos) ruled Azeroth.

And the DI didn't have much of a choice since they were just puppets, but admitedly there was also willing among them. Besides, Rag might have also given them delusiouns of granduer of what awaited them in this new Azeroth.
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Old 05-04-2015, 12:21 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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So what we've got so far is:
  1. The Dark Iron were caught flat-footed by the Horde blitzkrieg and lost the Spire, but have held the Depths since then.
  2. The Dark Iron haven't had a standing military since the Three Hammers, and just sealed themselves up in the Depths when the Horde showed up.
  3. The Dark Iron strategically retreated to the Depths because Ragnaros didn't care about the upper reaches of the mountain.
Any of those are options, though I generally thought it was the first because I assumed the Dark Irons held territory in the Redridge Mountains? And Redridge was definitely covered in the First War.

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The Horde was defeated outside, if I remember correctly, and the Alliance never went in and cleaned them out. They had lost their leader and didn't bother to go in and finish out those who were left inside. They just chased them back into DP and that was that.
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Also, Rend and Maim and their Dark Horde held the spire after Doomhammer's defeat specifically by the grace of the Black Dragonflight (a.k.a. Nefarian bolstering their forces with dragonkin and Onyxia keeping Stormwind occupied), which is consistent with Maim's fate in the RPG.
Which brings us to Reason#47383 for why the WoW novels should be taken with a grain of salt: If the novels are correct, then Rend and Maim took control of their portion of Blackrock Spire between the Second War and the Destruction of Draenor.

Because the final scene of ToD has Turalyon and Khadgar overlooking the brand new Lothar statue at Blackrock Spire, built by orc prisoners, reflecting in that scene and the immediate scenes before that the Horde was beaten and posed no real threat. I'm assuming that Rend and Maim's orcs weren't just hiding in Blackrock Spire at the time, being vewy vewy quiet, while the statue was built in front of them by captured orcs? Or maybe they were, but Khadgar and Turalyon were just too stupid to check? Who knows in this setting. We could have a sandwich of the victorious Alliance outside Blackrock, too stupid to realize there are orcs a little bit inside, who are in turn too stupid to realize there are dark irons even further inside.

But regardless, BtDP has a scene of Deathwing ordering Nefarian to take control of the orcs in Blackrock Spire. Which means they had taken it beforehand and were possibly holding it for two years. And the Alliance characters never mention it, so we still don't know if they even realized the orcs were still there.

Quote:
Also, yeah, answering the question of how Khaz Modan and the Doomhammer Horde essentially fought a non-existent war would also be something to do. I'm at the point where I'd retcon out the Horde ever going THROUGH Khaz Modan and just have them sail up the eastern side of the continent. That allows WC2 elements like a fight over Dun Modr and refineries near Grim Batol to stay consistent without the orcs actually fighting through the Bronzebeards directly.
But that would be so sad. You'd miss out on the Siege of Ironforge, the as-yet-unexplained conquest of the southern fortresses, etc.

Since Blizzard says this part of the war did happen, then if you're going to retcon it I'd change it to actually make the invasion substantial. If you start the Khaz Modan invasion in the closing days/years of the First War, you at least have a connection for Aedis Brom fighting Twilight's Hammer orcs in the Black Morass.
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Old 05-04-2015, 12:26 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I had this theory that fight between the Horde and the Dark Iron Empire was one of the reasons that Stormwind was able to survive as long as it did during the First War. It's the explanation I put forth in Travels.
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Old 05-04-2015, 12:39 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Which brings us to Reason#47383 for why the WoW novels should be taken with a grain of salt: If the novels are correct, then Rend and Maim took control of their portion of Blackrock Spire between the Second War and the Destruction of Draenor.
Yes, depending on how much time the Horde had to claim BRS/BRM from the time of the first invasion and their final defeat. And just to what lengths the Alliance took in their invasion of BRM and how much cleaning out they did.

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Because the final scene of ToD has Turalyon and Khadgar overlooking the brand new Lothar statue at Blackrock Spire, built by orc prisoners, reflecting in that scene and the immediate scenes before that the Horde was beaten and posed no real threat.
Does that final scene specifically state that Turalyon and Khadgar were in BRS? Presuming the balcony area where you fight Nef.

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I'm assuming that Rend and Maim's orcs weren't just hiding in Blackrock Spire at the time, being vewy vewy quiet, while the statue was built in front of them by captured orcs?
Was Rend and Maim on the battlefield at the time of Doomhammer's defeat? We already know that not all of the Horde fled to the Dark Portal. Some fled back into the mountain and others, Grom Hellscream and his clan, fled into the SoS where they successfully hid for years.... years.

Plus we are looking at game scale versus actual game scale. With the defeat of the bulk of the Horde, how much time and effort was the Alliance going to take in cleaning out BRM, as well as SoS? We know it wasn't much since not only did we have the Horde still in BRM, but we had an entire clan of orcs hiding out in the SoS.

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Or maybe they were, but Khadgar and Turalyon were just too stupid to check? Who knows in this setting. We could have a sandwich of the victorious Alliance outside Blackrock, too stupid to realize there are orcs a little bit inside, who are in turn too stupid to realize there are dark irons even further inside.
If the DI knew what was going on outside and did any checking on the status of the Horde forces inside.

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But regardless, BtDP has a scene of Deathwing ordering Nefarian to take control of the orcs in Blackrock Spire. Which means they had taken it beforehand and were possibly holding it for two years. And the Alliance characters never mention it, so we still don't know if they even realized the orcs were still there.
Like I said, is there evidence that the Alliance retook BRS in it's entirety? If they didn't, or just sent in a few forces to scout around before being pulled elsewhere, then it's really not that hard to imagine that the Horde just hide and bided their time until the Alliance left and then retook everything.
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Old 05-04-2015, 12:57 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Yeah, Ragnaros basically owning the DI regardless of their feelings is a solid point.

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Any of those are options, though I generally thought it was the first because I assumed the Dark Irons held territory in the Redridge Mountains? And Redridge was definitely covered in the First War.
Right, but what's weird about the first is that if the Dark Irons did have surface-level settlements in the Burning Steppes, you'd think they'd have had some warning about the incoming Horde troops. The more Dark Irons you put between the Horde and the mountain itself, the harder it is to believe that the Dark Irons were caught unawares with the Horde at their literal doorstep.

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Which brings us to Reason#47383 for why the WoW novels should be taken with a grain of salt: If the novels are correct, then Rend and Maim took control of their portion of Blackrock Spire between the Second War and the Destruction of Draenor.

Because the final scene of ToD has Turalyon and Khadgar overlooking the brand new Lothar statue at Blackrock Spire, built by orc prisoners, reflecting in that scene and the immediate scenes before that the Horde was beaten and posed no real threat. I'm assuming that Rend and Maim's orcs weren't just hiding in Blackrock Spire at the time, being vewy vewy quiet, while the statue was built in front of them by captured orcs? Or maybe they were, but Khadgar and Turalyon were just too stupid to check? Who knows in this setting. We could have a sandwich of the victorious Alliance outside Blackrock, too stupid to realize there are orcs a little bit inside, who are in turn too stupid to realize there are dark irons even further inside.

But regardless, BtDP has a scene of Deathwing ordering Nefarian to take control of the orcs in Blackrock Spire. Which means they had taken it beforehand and were possibly holding it for two years. And the Alliance characters never mention it, so we still don't know if they even realized the orcs were still there.
There's got to be a better way to explain that. First one that comes to mind is Onyxia starting early on the befuddling Stormwinders angle and "convincing" them that there were totally no orcs in the Spire, while Nefarian basically has Rend by the nuts and tells him "you don't go out there. Not yet."

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But that would be so sad. You'd miss out on the Siege of Ironforge, the as-yet-unexplained conquest of the southern fortresses, etc.

Since Blizzard says this part of the war did happen, then if you're going to retcon it I'd change it to actually make the invasion substantial. If you start the Khaz Modan invasion in the closing days/years of the First War, you at least have a connection for Aedis Brom fighting Twilight's Hammer orcs in the Black Morass.
Okay, admittedly I needed to have a clearer idea of what that Siege entailed, but now I've educated myself a bit. It DOES help to give an explanation for the following:
  • Kilrogg knows how to do a siege, and successfully besieges all of Khaz Modan, effectively. Cho'gall was clearly cramping his style during the first Siege of Stormwind.
  • It helps explain why Kilrogg wasn't at Blackrock Spire with Orgrim. Though exactly how Kilrogg extracts himself from the situation of the breaking of the siege at Ironforge opens up a LOT of questions.

Where it presents a challenge is in the narrative that the dwarves lost a lot of southern citadels. However, aside from MAYBE Anvilmar, there aren't any dwarven citadels south of Ironforge, at least from what we see in WoW itself.

Although, Angor Fortress could be a possibility.

Okay, so I shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Khaz Modan theatre of the War. Lesson learned.
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  #22  
Old 05-04-2015, 01:07 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Does that final scene specifically state that Turalyon and Khadgar were in BRS? Presuming the balcony area where you fight Nef.
They were at the Lothar statue at Blackrock Spire, where it had just been built by orc prisoners. I'm not sure exactly where that is, in relation to the rest of Blackrock?



In the dialogue between Turalyon and Khadgar, they don't mention anything about a Horde holdout being just a few meters away.

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Was Rend and Maim on the battlefield at the time of Doomhammer's defeat? We already know that not all of the Horde fled to the Dark Portal.
It does specifically verify that they were at the following Dark Portal battle, and they fled that battle with a few others after Turalyon beat them.

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Where it presents a challenge is in the narrative that the dwarves lost a lot of southern citadels. However, aside from MAYBE Anvilmar, there aren't any dwarven citadels south of Ironforge, at least from what we see in WoW itself.
Who knows how many were destroyed forever, never to be rebuilt?
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Old 05-04-2015, 01:34 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Right, but what's weird about the first is that if the Dark Irons did have surface-level settlements in the Burning Steppes, you'd think they'd have had some warning about the incoming Horde troops. The more Dark Irons you put between the Horde and the mountain itself, the harder it is to believe that the Dark Irons were caught unawares with the Horde at their literal doorstep.
Any surface level settlements that they had i.e. their former capital were destroyed by Rag's summoning.

As far as the lore goes, after their defeat, all of the DI fled to BRM and we don't have any evidence, as far as I have seen, of post WoTH and Pre-Vanilla WoW, of BS settlements.

But the DI were driven back to depths prior to the Horde's defeat by Doomhammer and his forces. Considering the view that the DI had, I doubt that they were completely surprised, but the Horde was strong enough to defeat them.

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They were at the Lothar statue at Blackrock Spire, where it had just been built by orc prisoners. I'm not sure exactly where that is, in relation to the rest of Blackrock?
In terms of the viewing it from on high. I'll presume that it was the Nef's balcony since that's the only solid place to stand and see accross the steppes. Unless they were closer.

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In the dialogue between Turalyon and Khadgar, they don't mention anything about a Horde holdout being just a few meters away.
Really not surpising since it sounds like you are sticking with gamescale verus real scale. Everything is bigger then how it's presented in game. Lots and lots of places for them to hide. How much effort did the Alliance take in cleaning out BRM of the Horde? If the Alliance took it completely, then why and when did they leave? Why is there no evidence of the Alliance in BRM/BRS?

If the Alliance held BRM, then why would DW order his kin to align himself with the Dark Horde who didn't control BRM?

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It does specifically verify that they were at the following Dark Portal battle, and they fled that battle with a few others after Turalyon beat them.
They evidenltly fled north, along with a certain Hellscream, and while Grom and his forces manage to evade the Alliance for 30+ years in the SoS, Rend and Main went back to BRM, or, or the just waited until the Alliance left and then moved back in.

Which wasn't that long since the Alliance doesn't make much mention of their BRM saitioned forces or talk about any bases that they built in the BS. It sounds like lorewise, the Alliance went in there, did some cleaning, build a statue and left zero evidence that did anything more than that.
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Old 05-04-2015, 06:08 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Okay, so Blackrock Mountain was created by Rag. I feel like there should be accounts from the residents of Stormwind, Ironforge, Lordaeron, and Quel'Thalas of this happening.

When Krakatoa erupted it was heard around the world. It only makes sense that everyone else would hear Rag's return as well since the explosion must have been huge.

This is a little more world building than Blizzard likes to do.
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Old 05-04-2015, 07:20 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Really not surpising since it sounds like you are sticking with gamescale verus real scale. Everything is bigger then how it's presented in game. Lots and lots of places for them to hide. How much effort did the Alliance take in cleaning out BRM of the Horde? If the Alliance took it completely, then why and when did they leave? Why is there no evidence of the Alliance in BRM/BRS?
Whoa, I'm no fan of game scale over large scale, not by a longshot!

But I do think that often, the novels like ToD and BtDP feel more gamescaley than they should. A lot of small, specific numbers are thrown around. A lot of short distances are covered in a short amount of time. Small armies go to hide somewhere without anyone else knowing they are there, and the only foreseeable reason they are able to hide so long is because we need some years to pass before the next game-event but Blizzard still wants the stretch of "peace" between them for some reason. Battles and catastrophes happen without any settlements being destroyed or landmarks being altered, because Blizzard wants these settlements and landmarks to still exist in modern times and doesn't care for the interpretation that they could have been rebuilt or altered over time.

I'm not a fan of that, and that's why I'm for parts of these books being taken with a grain of salt. If the Alliance took the time to build a giant statue in front of Blackrock Spire using orc prison-labor, I feel like they would know if there were orc holdouts in that mountain. And before then, if the orcs spent about 6 years holding Blackrock Spire, I feel like they would know (or at least have rumors) about other sentients further down. Where are these groups getting water and food, for this length of time? Would Horde shaman/warlocks and Alliance mages/paladins/rangers really not be able to sense an indication that a sizable force is holding out here? The Horde found this mountain because Zuluhed sensed it, after all.

And later, when Zul'jin told them the name of Blackrock Mountain, wouldn't he also know enough history to let them know that the Dark Iron dwarves did something catastrophic there about 200 years ago and that there were legends they still lived there (because really, after 200 years of history, there would at least be legends that the Dark Irons were still there, especially with the Far Sight spells of clerics and shaman that other novels have verified). These are the kinds of questions that would get answered in real-world scale, but are so often glossed over in the gamescale that dominates this universe.

To be clear, I do like the interpretation that Rend's Blackrock orcs required dragonflight assistance to hold Blackrock Spire for so long. That's just one of the areas we'd have to look the other way from what the novels say.


EDIT: The whole "nobody saw them or found out about them" thing is also the main issue I have with the Frostwolf exodus and with Doomhammer's little visit with Durotan. I wish Blizzard had confirmed something extraordinary... like a waygate connecting the Alterac Valley to some spot in the Swamp of Sorrows, and the waygate got destroyed later... or a Frostwolf super snowstorm camouflage spell... something other than "they were really quiet and killed anyone who saw them".

And that just tacks on with the "nobody else in the world of Azeroth knew about the orcs or that Stormwind was fighting a 5-year war against them, not even on the level of rumor, except a few people in Dalaran knew because Khadgar wrote to them; everyone else was completely shocked to discover orcs existed at the moment they reached their doorstep."

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 05-04-2015 at 07:43 AM..
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