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  #26  
Old 05-04-2015, 07:42 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I'm not a fan of that, and that's why I'm for parts of these books being taken with a grain of salt. If the Alliance took the time to build a giant statue in front of Blackrock Spire using orc prison-labor, I feel like they would know if there were orc holdouts in that mountain.
Not necessarily. It all depends on just how far into BRM/BRS they went into. And just how long they (Alliance) spent there.

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And before then, if the orcs spent about 6 years holding Blackrock Spire, I feel like they would know (or at least have rumors) about other sentients further down.
Wait a sec, didn't the Horde kick the Dark Iron out of BRS and force them down into BRD? The DI had control of the entire mountain, the Horde moved in and took the upper half while the DI controlled the lower half.

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Where are these groups getting water and food, for this length of time?
Same place that the Dark Iron were getting theirs. I certainly don't see any massive sources of water and yet Shadowforge City and it's sizeable amount of dwarves have survived.

Again, keep in mind that Grom Hellscream and his big clan of orcs evaded capture for 30 years in SoS. The Alliance tried to find them and never did. If having someone sense them worked, then why didn't the Alliance ever find them until 30 years later?

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And that just tacks on with the "nobody else in the world of Azeroth knew about the orcs or that Stormwind was fighting a 5-year war against them, not even on the level of rumor, except a few people in Dalaran knew because Khadgar wrote to them; everyone else was completely shocked to discover orcs existed at the moment they reached their doorstep."
And nobody knew about the destruction of Southshore.
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  #27  
Old 05-04-2015, 08:00 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Wait a sec, didn't the Horde kick the Dark Iron out of BRS and force them down into BRD? The DI had control of the entire mountain, the Horde moved in and took the upper half while the DI controlled the lower half.

Same place that the Dark Iron were getting theirs. I certainly don't see any massive sources of water and yet Shadowforge City and it's sizeable amount of dwarves have survived.
Sorry, when I said the orcs were "holding Blackrock Spire", I meant their specific section. Not the whole thing.

And it sounds like you're taking the interpretation that the orcs at Blackrock would have known about the Dark Irons further below? That's the one I like.

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Again, keep in mind that Grom Hellscream and his big clan of orcs evaded capture for 30 years in SoS. The Alliance tried to find them and never did. If having someone sense them worked, then why didn't the Alliance ever find them until 30 years later?
Yes, but the Alliance knew that Grom's orcs existed and that they were still in hiding somewhere. If you're saying that the Alliance knew Rend/Maim were in Blackrock Mountain but didn't know exactly where, then sure! I can definitely get behind that. What I don't care for, is the idea that they were blissfully unaware of any orcs or other sentients anywhere in the Blackrock Mountain area at all.

On a different topic, Hellscream's orcs wouldn't have been staying in the Swamp of Sorrows for the full 30 years. At some point they had to travel to continental Lordaeron, so Thrall could find them.
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  #28  
Old 05-04-2015, 08:24 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Aah, this reminds me of the time I tried to figure out sensible war timelines for Ramses' Take on Warcraft. The solution I used was to have the conquest of Blackrock Mountain very early in the timeline, before Stormwind really started getting conquered. Even ignoring my own altered timeline, the First War still has those few years where nothing much happened, so it's easy to say that that was when Blackhand was conquering Dark Iron lands. It gives the horde plenty of time to make the place their own, even with an extended campaign against the Dark Irons.

Of course, that completely ignores the ToD novel, but... well... it's the ToD novel.
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  #29  
Old 05-04-2015, 08:53 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Sorry, when I said the orcs were "holding Blackrock Spire", I meant their specific section. Not the whole thing.

And it sounds like you're taking the interpretation that the orcs at Blackrock would have known about the Dark Irons further below? That's the one I like.
Ok, we know that the Dark Iron controlled the entire mountain (BRD/BRS). During the First War the Blackrock orcs came in and claimed BRS for themselves. They had to have killed the Dark Irons in order to take it. So they knew that there was Dark Iron living there.

So the timeline looks like this to me:

First War: Horde claims BRS. DI are forced back to BRD.
End of Second War: Horde is defeated, presume that the Alliance cleaned out BRS, and then left. It does allow for orcs to have remained behind in BRS and just did a good job hiding.
several months after end of SW: Rend and Main and the remaining orcs return to retake BRS from the DI.
Dark Horde and DI fight for several years over control of BRS.
2 years after SW: Nef and Onyxia arrive and stop the war by completely removing the DI from BRS and having control over to Rend. Maim is killed during this battle.

DI and DH continue to fight for years following Nef's arrival. but always to a stalemate.

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Yes, but the Alliance knew that Grom's orcs existed and that they were still in hiding somewhere. If you're saying that the Alliance knew Rend/Maim were in Blackrock Mountain but didn't know exactly where, then sure! I can definitely get behind that. What I don't care for, is the idea that they were blissfully unaware of any orcs or other sentients anywhere in the Blackrock Mountain area at all.
I never said that the Alliance was blissfully aware. I'm saying that the orcs could've hidden themselves while the Alliance was going through and cleaning out any pockets that they found. They probably knew about the orcs hiding there and they defeinetly knew about the DI since the dwarves knew about them. But the Alliance didn't see the DI as big of a threat as the orcs so they ignored them.

As for Rend and Maim, it all depends on if they made a beeline straight to BRM after the Dark Portal defeat. I think so, or at least were in the area waiting for the Alliance to leave, but the lore doesn't say much except that they arrived back at BRS and were fighting the DI until Nef arrived 2 years later.
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  #30  
Old 05-04-2015, 09:39 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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I think it's not outside the realm of possibility that Rend, Maim, and the remainder of the Doomhammer Horde they had control over could have evaded capture after the Battle of Blackrock until after the Alliance finished building their monument to Lothar and then relocated the captured orcs to the first internment camps.

I could then see a narrative where the Dark Iron, thinking that the Horde were beaten, started to reclaim the upper reaches of the mountain, but then Rend and Maim, wanting to secure a fortified position from which to build a power base, return to the mountain and fight against the Dark Iron. And this lasts until Nefarian offers his assistance.

As for why the Horde never took the depths from the Dark Iron, I'd imagine it's not because they forgot they were there, but because it just wasn't a priority. Or, if taking the whole mountain WAS a priority, maybe a change in leadership changed the plan.

So, imagine this: Blackhand's first assault of Stormwind fails because Kilrogg and Cho'gall don't have any tactical chemistry. Blackhand wants a solid citadel to operate from, and Zuluhed senses the power within Blackrock Mountain, so the Horde moves to take the mountain and get initial success, claiming the upper reaches. Blackhand wants to claim the depths because that's where the power is coming from.

Then Doomhammer gets it in his hand that Blackhand has made a bad call and bludgeons his head off, and then decides to focus the Horde on destroying Stormwind and the Shadow Council. Enough forces are left at Blackrock to hold against the Dark Iron if they get aggressive, but it stays secure all the way until the Alliance come there to break the Horde at the end of the Second War.
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  #31  
Old 05-04-2015, 10:35 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Grom Hellscream and his clan, fled into the SoS where they successfully hid for years.... years.
Warsong Clan didn't fight in the First or Second Wars. They were on Draenor the whole time. Grom and his clan made it out to Azeroth just as Khadgar was destroying the Dark Portal from the Outland side.
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  #32  
Old 05-04-2015, 10:39 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Warsong Clan didn't fight in the First or Second Wars. They were on Draenor the whole time. Grom and his clan made it out to Azeroth just as Khadgar was destroying the Dark Portal from the Outland side.
Quick edit: Yes to most of this, but per WoW:BtDP, Grom led the part of the Horde that crashed into Azeroth during the Teron Gorefiend's campaign to get the artifacts. He stayed near the portal while Gorefiend's commandos went questing, basically.

After the Alliance Expedition went through the Portal to go after Gorefiend, Hellscream retook the Azeroth half of the Portal until it was destroyed from the other side.
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  #33  
Old 05-04-2015, 10:41 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Quick edit: Yes to most of this, but per WoW:BtDP, Grom led the part of the Horde that crashed into Azeroth during the Teron Gorefiend's campaign to get the artifacts. He stayed near the portal while Gorefiend's commandos went questing, basically.

After the Alliance Expedition went through the Portal to go after Gorefiend, Hellscream retook the Azeroth half of the Portal until it was destroyed from the other side.
Yes, he did. That wasn't during the Second War, though. That was during the events of Beyond the Dark Portal. Grom wasn't present at Blackrock Spire when Doomhammer was defeated.
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  #34  
Old 05-06-2015, 09:19 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Yes, he did. That wasn't during the Second War, though. That was during the events of Beyond the Dark Portal. Grom wasn't present at Blackrock Spire when Doomhammer was defeated.
UVG does paint the Alliance Expedition to Draenor happening in Year 8, vs. Year 6 when the Second War takes place.

This might be splitting hairs at this point.
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  #35  
Old 05-06-2015, 09:22 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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UVG does paint the Alliance Expedition to Draenor happening in Year 8, vs. Year 6 when the Second War takes place.

This might be splitting hairs at this point.
Timelines have always been a Blizzard weakness.

Except for the War of Three Hammers. I don't think that it has ever changed from 300 years ago.
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