^ Thanks, the giant horn-things on the side definitely look reminiscent. Similarly the wiki shows me that the Defias Brotherhood has been building something that looks like an Ogre/Orc Juggernaught in WoW. I hope we can assume that these designs weren't just now conceived, and that they in fact could have been around in earlier days even if they weren't seen at the pre-Battle of Hillsbrad or in that specific portion of Battle of Crestfall.

But with the water, I guess I'll just rest easier the first time a writer forgets this obscure bit of lore and accidentally shows Forest Trolls splashing around without thinking much of it, thus potentially defanging this fact.

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The Curse of Monkey Island - Part III

I always assumed the Goblins were in charge of the ship building and design back in Warcraft 2 (likely bossed around by Ogres). Certainly the fact that Goblins were largely working on the Defias ship gives more support to that.

I'd honestly love to see all the Warcraft 2 ships represented in game.

Indeed.

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...what just happened?

You talking good ol' Warcraft II retrolore now?

It would've been natural for Goblins to have a hand in designing them, especially since they and the Trolls had a symbiotic thing going on in the Horde. At this time, Troll Berserkers and their Regeneration were augmented heavily by Goblin alchemy. The Trolls likewise used chemicals with their Lumber Mills for more efficient timber harvesting, even though this damaged the land.

Now, I had always assumed that Troll Destroyers were a mainstay of the Trolls and that they had been dueling with Elven Destroyers for generations on rivers, but the manual never actually says that. It just emphasizes the Troll crews' eagerness:

It is conceivable that these ships could have been constructed for the Trolls by either the Orcs or the Goblins beforehand, though we should remember that the Trolls themselves designed the Horde's lumber mills and are expert woodworkers.

And that also connects with gunpowder and cannon access. Remember that neither the Humans nor the Orcs had cannons in the original Warcraft---no, medieval warfare didn't have cannons at all in real history, since that's what made castles obsolete. And it's no surprise that the Alliance gains this technology in Warcraft II, since even the introduction sequence refers to "Dwarven cannon". There are different possibilities for how the Horde acquired this technology. The most obvious is that the Goblins and/or Trolls already had it, sharing the same world with Ironforge (and, now we know through modern lore, industrial Gilneas).

But entertainingly, the Tides of Darkness novel has the potential to offer a viable alternative, since it specifically says that the Orcs invaded Khaz Modan to obtain shipbuilding supplies. It would be, oh so easy, to say that these shipbuilding supplies included stationary and ship-based cannon. What if the Dwarves and Gilneans had monopolized gunpowder prior to the Second War? Because, if you've played Age of Empires or its sequel, it's not so difficult to imagine Elven Destroyers and Troll Destroyers facing each other with volleys of arrows, throwing axes, or other types of weapons!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Though while we know Troll crewmen would have manned the Troll Destroyers, we don't have similar certainty for the Ogre Juggernaught:

Why are they "ogre" juggernaughts? Was it just because the ships were so gigantic and intimidating? Did the ogres build them, with their strength? Were the ogres rowing, to supplement the sails? Were ogres active members of the crew, or even captains? It wouldn't be so surprising, if you remember that at this time in lore the ogres were used as enforcers to quell infighting between the orcs, and that there were ogre-mage chieftains of one clan in the original game and another clan in the expansion---these clans being the only two subfactions led by neither a human nor an orc.

It's actually quite exciting that the Defias have been building something that looks so much like an Ogre/Orc Juggernaught, while there also seems to be a ship that at least bears resemblance to the Troll Destroyer. It gives me hope that maybe, just maybe, the Old Horde Fleet still existed... that there actually were once High Elven and Forest Troll sailors screaming at each other between cannon shots across bows, on Darrowmere Lake and the Great Sea... who knows, maybe firing chain-shot to tie up the wings of gryphons and dragons?




That's really the reason that I hope Forest Trolls aren't incapable of crossing water. Perhaps, with time, that will all be reshaped into one of the explanations you guys have offered here.

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The Curse of Monkey Island - Part III

Cannons were easily used in Europe as far back as the 11th century. They were certainly utilized in the Hundred Years' War. Early cannons were somewhat risky to use however. European Crusaders even used flamethrower technology in the form of greekfire.

Entire architectural designs of castles were created as a direct response to the advent and usage of gunpowder weaponry, bro.

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My bad. Effective cannons rendered them obsolete.


(More or less. Design shifting into what we call "fortresses", and all that.)

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The Curse of Monkey Island - Part III

You underestimate the power of the castle.

I'm not trying to state something revolutionary or controversial here. I'm simply referring to the commonly-accepted development that when cannons grew to be more effective than trebuchet-style siege weaponry, fortifications shifted away from the medieval style castles.

Gunpowder artillery in the Middle Ages

It cites René Chartrand, but I don't think the information is that highly disputed.

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The Curse of Monkey Island - Part III