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View Poll Results: Was Arthas right?
Yes. 20 68.97%
No. 9 31.03%
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  #26  
Old 09-30-2014, 09:04 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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It was right and the only option, he just shouldn't have gone to Northrend.
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  #27  
Old 09-30-2014, 09:40 AM
Sceptic Sceptic is offline

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It was right and the only option, he just shouldn't have gone to Northrend.
From a legal point of view, Arthas was wrong- no one acts without the goodwill of the king. But imagine if Arthas had remained in Lordaeron. Wouldn't the citizens of Lordaeron have been very upset that their future king murdered an entire city? I believe Arthas also travelled to Northrend, because he couldn't see his people in the eyes anymore.
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  #28  
Old 09-30-2014, 09:56 AM
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From a legal point of view, Arthas was wrong- no one acts without the goodwill of the king. But imagine if Arthas had remained in Lordaeron. Wouldn't the citizens of Lordaeron have been very upset that their future king murdered an entire city? I believe Arthas also travelled to Northrend, because he couldn't see his people in the eyes anymore.
He was the field commander and had the power to make decision when it was impossible to contact the king in time.

Actually no, you can see when he returned people were welcoming him as a hero.
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  #29  
Old 09-30-2014, 10:04 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
He was the field commander and had the power to make decision when it was impossible to contact the king in time.

Actually no, you can see when he returned people were welcoming him as a hero.
Uther was his superior, so he really didn't have the authority to order the culling. Besides, power only goes so far, so even if he were the superior officer, does his authority go as far as being allowed to make such a decision? I think not.

Why were the people welcoming him? I guess that he was away long enough for things to blow over, or his victories in Northrend overshadowed Stratholme, which swayed the people's opinions.

Last edited by Nazja; 09-30-2014 at 10:09 AM..
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  #30  
Old 09-30-2014, 10:21 AM
Sceptic Sceptic is offline

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Uther was his superior, so he really didn't have the authority to order the culling. Besides, power only goes so far, so even if he were the superior officer, does his authority go as far as being allowed to make such a decision? I think not.

Why were the people welcoming him? I guess that he was away long enough for things to blow over, or his victories in Northrend overshadowed Stratholme, which swayed the people's opinions.
As described in "Rise of the Lich King", Arthas was welcomed because he first sent a letter to his father that "the threat is destroyed". It might be that Terenas' order had more to do with the welcoming celebration than the will of the populace.

No matter how you twist and turn it- Arthas' action was illegal.
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  #31  
Old 09-30-2014, 10:39 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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As described in "Rise of the Lich King", Arthas was welcomed because he first sent a letter to his father that "the threat is destroyed".
This is one of the reasons why I like SoL. Someone will always remind you of forgotten lore.
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  #32  
Old 09-30-2014, 06:50 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Would you have torched the city or not? Was Arthas right?

This thread is brought to you courtesy of Baron Grackle.
I would have tried to sort the living from the dead or becoming dead. It might have been an epic disaster and I don't think Arthas was WRONG to do what he did, per say. However, it was the start of his road to darkness because he was willing to do anything to make that decision justified.

And he was more concerned about defeating Mal'Ganis than protecting the innocent.

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Now, am I reading too deeply into things, or is that first passage a foreshadowing that Uther will fail to act appropriately during the Culling of Stratholme?

If we were to take these reading sections seriously, would it imply that Lothar and Turalyon would have provided better answer to Arthas, had they been in the situation that Uther was in?

(Though it likewise indicates that Tirion and Saidan would have been equally as ill-fitted as Uther was?)
I have almost NO respect for Uther or Jaina's decision. They made the absolute worst possible one.

Either you should support Arthas or STOP HIM.

Or come up with a better option.

Removing themselves from the equation was an act of moral cowardice. If Uther truly believed what Arthas did was evil, he should have stopped him.

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Uther was his superior, so he really didn't have the authority to order the culling. Besides, power only goes so far, so even if he were the superior officer, does his authority go as far as being allowed to make such a decision? I think not.

Why were the people welcoming him? I guess that he was away long enough for things to blow over, or his victories in Northrend overshadowed Stratholme, which swayed the people's opinions.
Well, Uther was his superior but Arthas was Prince. So, the troops sided with Uther over Arthas.

As for the citizenry hating Arthas, I doubt it would have been that big of a deal. In real life, cities have been burned to the ground to contain plague and this is so much worse.
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Last edited by Charles Phipps; 09-30-2014 at 06:56 PM..
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  #33  
Old 09-30-2014, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Uther was his superior, so he really didn't have the authority to order the culling. Besides, power only goes so far, so even if he were the superior officer, does his authority go as far as being allowed to make such a decision? I think not.

Why were the people welcoming him? I guess that he was away long enough for things to blow over, or his victories in Northrend overshadowed Stratholme, which swayed the people's opinions.
No, he was the heir to the throne and had the power to command Uther. It's kinda like Kael would be able to command the Ranger General Sylvanas even though she was the commander of the Silvermoon army. Uther was the commander of the army, but himself(Leader of the Silverhand) was under Arthas.

Because it was not his fault, if he didn't kill those people they would turn into zombies and swarm the nation. It's not hard for people to understand since it already happened a few times.
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  #34  
Old 09-30-2014, 07:50 PM
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In the words of Odin the Allfather, "you're not king yet!". I do not believe the Prince of Lordaeron had any temporal or military power before coronation.
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  #35  
Old 09-30-2014, 08:08 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
In the words of Odin the Allfather, "you're not king yet!". I do not believe the Prince of Lordaeron had any temporal or military power before coronation.
I would agree but I think the issue isn't as set in stone as in, say, modern day where there's a clear chain of command. Uther could have attempted to force the issue but Arthas usurped command of the army and they were willing to follow him.

Even if he wasn't, theoretically, in command, he was 2nd in Command and had royal title which he used to leverage defacto leadership.

As stated, "It's not treason if you win."

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Because it was not his fault, if he didn't kill those people they would turn into zombies and swarm the nation. It's not hard for people to understand since it already happened a few times.
I think the important thing to remember is Mal'Ganis set the whole thing up so there was no good answer.

The effect isn't to kill the people of the town but force Arthas to feel like he's the only one who can handle this.
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Last edited by Charles Phipps; 09-30-2014 at 08:11 PM..
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  #36  
Old 09-30-2014, 08:19 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
In the words of Odin the Allfather, "you're not king yet!". I do not believe the Prince of Lordaeron had any temporal or military power before coronation.
No, just like Kael obviously have power over the military, he even could reform the rangers and name the new general. Actually Arthas didn't even have to have military power, just need to have the power over Uther, as the heir to the throne.
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  #37  
Old 09-30-2014, 09:11 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
No, just like Kael obviously have power over the military, he even could reform the rangers and name the new general. Actually Arthas didn't even have to have military power, just need to have the power over Uther, as the heir to the throne.
The heir to a throne has no power that isn't given to him by the king - until his father died, any such power held by Kael'thas would have been granted to him by his father.

Uther was in command by Terenas' will - that makes Arthas subordinate to Uther's authority in military matters unless Terenas himself dies, elevates Arthas to command, or rescinds that appointment. Or potentially if Uther dies, though even then the chain of command as approved by Terenas would technically take precedent with Terenas still king.

"I'm going to be king" means exactly jack squat next to the existing edicts of the sutting king himself.

Frankly one of the most important parts of being a king and staying a king is not letting those in line to the throne have free reign to override your own appointed generals whenever the mood strikes them.
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  #38  
Old 09-30-2014, 09:32 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
The heir to a throne has no power that isn't given to him by the king - until his father died, any such power held by Kael'thas would have been granted to him by his father.

Uther was in command by Terenas' will - that makes Arthas subordinate to Uther's authority in military matters unless Terenas himself dies, elevates Arthas to command, or rescinds that appointment. Or potentially if Uther dies, though even then the chain of command as approved by Terenas would technically take precedent with Terenas still king.

"I'm going to be king" means exactly jack squat next to the existing edicts of the sutting king himself.

Frankly one of the most important parts of being a king and staying a king is not letting those in line to the throne have free reign to override your own appointed generals whenever the mood strikes them.
No, Kael obviously had power over his nation's business like it hinted a few times in RotLK.

Terenas sent both Arthas and Uther there to investigate the plague. If we look at the fact, Arthas indeed dismantled Uther's duty, and at least half of the troops stayed with him and followed his order, only Terenas' command could call the ships back. It's quite clear that Arthas had authority over Uther.
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  #39  
Old 10-01-2014, 12:39 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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I don't think it's automatically the case Arthas is powerless because he's clearly in command underneath Uther's authority. Historically, many Princes have wielded power in their own right in addition to their father's authority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward,_the_Black_Prince

Now, Uther was in charge of the expedition but Arthas was already an experienced military leader, Paladin, and possibly being groomed to be military leader of Lordaeron.

Uther may have the LEGAL authority to refuse any of Arthas' orders but if that was the case, why did NO ONE go with Uther?
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  #40  
Old 10-01-2014, 10:07 AM
SomeRandomEvilGuy SomeRandomEvilGuy is offline

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Originally Posted by Charles Phipps View Post
Uther may have the LEGAL authority to refuse any of Arthas' orders but if that was the case, why did NO ONE go with Uther?
Some did. Though those who did had all come with Uther.

Relevant Warcraft III cutscene.
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  #41  
Old 10-01-2014, 10:11 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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It's not uncommon for soldiers to be more loyal to their commander than those their commander is subordinate to.
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