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  #26  
Old 03-30-2017, 02:50 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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http://www.visualcapitalist.com/pric...actually-need/





I saw someone link this chart on Facebook as evidence that the government should subsidize these things even more. To me you would think it would tell you the opposite because the things who have seen their costs go up the fastest are the things the government subsidizes the most already.

Which makes sense because the government is allowing producers to charge more for their products because people have more money to spend on it without actually producing anymore. This is also why spending on entitlements grows exponentially because in order to have the same impact as the previous year you need to spend that much more. The increased cost of the good or service then becomes out of reach for more people without the subsidy so then more people end up relying on it.
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  #27  
Old 03-30-2017, 04:59 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Maybe textbook salesmen should stop being crooks
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  #28  
Old 03-30-2017, 07:04 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Maybe textbook salesmen should stop being crooks
Textbooks are usually listed as required by instructors and they have a new edition with minor edits rather frequently. Sometimes they are even written by the instructor. In many of my classes I have never even had to open the book. It is a racket.
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  #29  
Old 03-30-2017, 08:04 PM
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Textbooks are usually listed as required by instructors and they have a new edition with minor edits rather frequently. Sometimes they are even written by the instructor. In many of my classes I have never even had to open the book. It is a racket.
Exactly
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  #30  
Old 03-31-2017, 07:02 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Exactly
I feel like the government subsidizing the consumer is what enables them to behave that way. It is the same reason we have armies of administrators or expensive recreation centers.

Giving the consumer a choice means they will try to choose the best one but there isn't a choice when the cost is outsourced to someone else. Consumption based subsidies should be temporary or needs based which would ultimately lead to them being much rarer. As a consequence the cost should drop and the subsidy will be less necessary and alternate options should exist to make schools have to improve their product to attract customers. In the end a diversity of education would be better for society and the economy.

I just feel like a consumption subsidy is really counter productive because it makes the good so expensive to the point where the subsidy increases and becomes a burden on the tax payer. There needs to be a better way to provide for people who can't afford it without having this cyclic effect that just makes it more expensive for everyone and increases the cost of the subsidy year to year to maintain the same impact.
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  #31  
Old 04-04-2017, 11:04 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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http://grist.org/business-technology...ital-they-use/

Sobering, if true, but unsurprising.

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The notion of “externalities” has become familiar in environmental circles. It refers to costs imposed by businesses that are not paid for by those businesses. For instance, industrial processes can put pollutants in the air that increase public health costs, but the public, not the polluting businesses, picks up the tab. In this way, businesses privatize profits and publicize costs.

While the notion is incredibly useful, especially in folding ecological concerns into economics, I’ve always had my reservations about it. Environmentalists these days love speaking in the language of economics — it makes them sound Serious — but I worry that wrapping this notion in a bloodless technical term tends to have a narcotizing effect. It brings to mind incrementalism: boost a few taxes here, tighten a regulation there, and the industrial juggernaut can keep right on chugging. However, if we take the idea seriously, not just as an accounting phenomenon but as a deep description of current human practices, its implications are positively revolutionary.
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  #32  
Old 04-05-2017, 06:36 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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http://grist.org/business-technology...ital-they-use/

Sobering, if true, but unsurprising.
I am all for using clean energy. The environment is at risk of the tragedy of the commons when companies share the burden of pollution with society. Mitigating current pollution and developing cleaner energy sources is crucial. I wouldn't mind some kind of Second Manhattan Project to develop workable nuclear fusion power plants. Even then the fear people have for nuclear fission is a bit silly when the US navy powers warships with nuclear energy.

I think it is a bit unrealistic to try and reduce pollution to zero though. I am not going to delve into their numbers and methodology for how they calculated cost but there is at least something when it comes to human health. The economy would halt with zero pollution. There would be famines because we couldn't harvest, distribute, or sustain food anymore. Energy is baked into every part of our economy. I read how Germany got rid a lot of their pollution(and nuclear) energy but now they are dependent on foreign nations for their energy needs and that isn't a good thing either. The pollution is still happening.
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  #33  
Old 04-05-2017, 07:10 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I wouldn't mind some kind of Second Manhattan Project to develop workable nuclear fusion power plants.
That would be pretty cool. ITER in France is kind of that but more money and more people throw in can only help. Not to mention fusion plants can't really cause any kind of disaster. If the containment field failed the plasma would rapidly expand and therefore cool down which would stop fusion and prevent any further catastrophe. Even assuming some worst case scenario where plasma escaped into the outside world it is mostly made up of very light elements which would quickly rise high into the atmosphere and eventually escape into space without harming anyone.

Also no one is saying go to zero at once. That would be an obvious humanitarian disaster. But at the same time there is no "good level of pollution." If it accumulates in the environment and makes things shitty it needs to stop being a thing. Best way to look at it is we are now in an unsustainable mode which has to end some day, fossil fuels will end one day and not too long in the future no matter how much oil you keep finding. So if our fossil age has to end anyway why try to prolong it and fuck up the planet along the way? As a wise man put it, this "lets see how long we can go" experiment with fossil fuels is the dumbest one in the history of mankind. We eventually need to go to zero (and then carbon negative) and it is imperative to get there ASAP.
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  #34  
Old 04-08-2017, 10:02 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Reminder that unions work, they prove that companies CAN pay a living wage and still be profitable, and that's why companies in the US hate them.

http://www.lo.se/start/om_oss/histor...n_pa_toys_r_us

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  #35  
Old 04-08-2017, 10:16 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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The American BK worker is much better dressed, though.
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  #36  
Old 04-09-2017, 06:33 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I don't think people understand how minimum wage impacts businesses. When you work for a company the assumption is that you produce a certain value for that company and that value has to be higher than what you are paid. No one is going to pay you more than what you can contribute to the company so when you are right out of high school and have no employable skills you have to develop them before someone can pay you more. One of the ways you can develop them is getting an entry level job that is simple because the experience makes you better.

The negative consequences for this are that too high of a minimum wage causes youth employment to be higher or really any low skilled worker. You pretty much destroy an avenue someone could have used to further develop their employable skills when you make it harder for someone to get a job without any formal training. The job loss is dependent on the equilibrium between the willingness for someone to do that job versus the willingness for someone to pay someone to do that job. The higher above that equilibrium the more job losses. Since the minimum wage is a set value this means that in higher cost of living areas that raising the minimum wage will have less job losses than it would it lower cost of living areas.


This is how a McDonald works in many European countries.


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  #37  
Old 04-09-2017, 09:27 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Companies make decisions to reallocate the money saved by improvements to efficiency over time to the pockets of CEOs rather than using it to employ more people or make life better for the employees they already have.

It is not a factor of what is possible, or doable, it is a factor of greed.

We produce more food, more housing, and more medicine than at any time in human history, the problem is merely that of distribution, because companies would rather buy another yacht or mansion than treat their 'unskilled' workers like human beings.

There are no unskilled jobs, only undervalued skills.
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  #38  
Old 04-09-2017, 10:04 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Companies make decisions to reallocate the money saved by improvements to efficiency over time to the pockets of CEOs rather than using it to employ more people or make life better for the employees they already have.

It is not a factor of what is possible, or doable, it is a factor of greed.

We produce more food, more housing, and more medicine than at any time in human history, the problem is merely that of distribution, because companies would rather buy another yacht or mansion than treat their 'unskilled' workers like human beings.

There are no unskilled jobs, only undervalued skills.
Labor is a cost of production and if there is a way to reduce that cost they should. Some industries are even mostly labor like the food service industry. The assembly line is why the automobile is affordable to the average person because the labor costs would be too high otherwise to make it possible to produce a vehicle that a normal person could buy. In that case the automation factor was highly beneficial even if it needed less jobs. You might as well argue that if we have a project that requires shovels that we might as well use spoons instead because it would create more jobs. You can't escape the fact that producing something isn't free and our economy rewards people who produce value. Your labor is already channeled much more efficiently than it could be without a business. I can't just go out and set up a coffee stand and make as much money as I would working for a big company like Starbucks. There is much more to the former than to the later.

The greediest people to me are the ones that want to use coercion to steal other people's money for themselves or their own personal self-indulgence. The people who don't want to make themselves useful to other people so they would would freely offer them a wage and instead want to force them to. The yacht isn't detracting from food production. It is an incentive for CEOs to innovate and continually improve. It even provides jobs for people who make them and whenever the government tries to tax something like that it ends up hurting those workers more than the CEOs. To me the government is immensely greedy because it will always find ways to take more money from people to self-aggrandize.

The consumer is the one that determines whose skills are valuable or not. They are the ones that consume products and services that require certain skills. There is a mismatch between people who want things and people who are willing to provide these things. Wages and prices are the two things that try to equalize those two forces. People like smart phones but they don't want to develop the skills that make them possible. Our society is only as wealthy as productive it is and you will see our wealth and abundance dry up pretty quickly if you hamper that production.
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  #39  
Old 04-09-2017, 10:14 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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The purpose of companies shouldn't be to accrue money like a high score, especially not at the expense of their employees or the citizens in the nation they're based in.

The notion that it's okay to pay people less than a living wage just because it's cheaper or better for a company is poisonous to society. It is why we have a huge wage gap between the lowest and highest level of employees, it is not a factor of how much work someone does, how difficult it is or how skilled people are, just the absolute lowest companies can pay people.
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Old 04-09-2017, 10:29 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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The purpose of companies shouldn't be to accrue money like a high score, especially not at the expense of their employees or the citizens in the nation they're based in.

The notion that it's okay to pay people less than a living wage just because it's cheaper or better for a company is poisonous to society. It is why we have a huge wage gap between the lowest and highest level of employees, it is not a factor of how much work someone does, how difficult it is or how skilled people are, just the absolute lowest companies can pay people.
It isn't at the expense of the employees or the citizens. It is for the benefit of the consumers. People need to invest in themselves so they can better provide for other people and when they do everyone in society becomes wealthier. You talk about a living wage but that living wage depends on the cost of living. If your companies are more efficient that cost of living is going to be lower. There is a reason why California has the highest level of poverty in the US when you factor in cost of living. All of this moralizing means absolutely nothing when it doesn't work.

A gap doesn't really matter. Envy doesn't make for good policy. You don't have to be a millionaire to be equal or happy and you don't have to tear down people who are. Companies can't pay people too low because if they do people won't work for them. It is all consensual. If someone doesn't want to develop in their labor skills to help contribute to the wealth in society than they can just live comfortable in a smaller home or apartment. They don't have to bring everyone else down to their level.
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  #41  
Old 04-09-2017, 10:37 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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People who want to be paid a living wage aren't envious. They want a fair share, not scraps.


I'm going to leave the discussion for right now because it feels like I live in a different goddang world than you do.
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Old 04-09-2017, 05:35 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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A negative income tax would be far more effective way to achieve what you are asking than forcing companies to pay people a certain amount. Your entire argument seems to be based on the idea that I don't want people to be able to live which is absurd. No matter what explanation I give to you you respond with some sort of moralizing. Stop doing that.
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  #43  
Old 05-02-2017, 12:47 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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A negative income tax would be far more effective way to achieve what you are asking than forcing companies to pay people a certain amount. Your entire argument seems to be based on the idea that I don't want people to be able to live which is absurd. No matter what explanation I give to you you respond with some sort of moralizing. Stop doing that.
I'm not the on who moralizes, YOU start that when you start calling people envious or lazy.

My argument is based on the fact that things are getting worse for workers because of things that companies are doing to try and keep profits high without regard to the impact on the rest of humanity or even their own self interest long term.




https://thenib.com/if-they-could-pay-us-less-they-would

This is an excellent comment on the minimum wage and a lot of the economic developments in the world recently.
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Old 05-02-2017, 01:22 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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https://thenib.com/if-they-could-pay-us-less-they-would

This is an excellent comment on the minimum wage and a lot of the economic developments in the world recently.
But you think the government is anymore inclined to care about humanity?

The economics surrounding the minimum wage is that if the minimum wage is set above the supply/demand equilibrium price that there will be job losses. That point is going to be dependent on cost of living. Job losses will be lower in places where the cost of living is already high and higher in ones where the cost of living is lower. Nothing in that comic disputes that. The cost of living in lower in Texas than it is in Australia or Seattle.

The Republicans will probably control the house of representatives for decades though so I wouldn't expect a minimum wage increase. We don't need to jack up youth unemployment, increase the cost of living, and deny more people on-the-job training who will just end up on the welfare rolls.
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Old 05-06-2017, 05:19 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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But you think the government is anymore inclined to care about humanity?

The economics surrounding the minimum wage is that if the minimum wage is set above the supply/demand equilibrium price that there will be job losses. That point is going to be dependent on cost of living. Job losses will be lower in places where the cost of living is already high and higher in ones where the cost of living is lower. Nothing in that comic disputes that. The cost of living in lower in Texas than it is in Australia or Seattle.

The Republicans will probably control the house of representatives for decades though so I wouldn't expect a minimum wage increase. We don't need to jack up youth unemployment, increase the cost of living, and deny more people on-the-job training who will just end up on the welfare rolls.
1. Yes.

2. Initially yes, but then people are paid more so they can spend more so companies have to hire more again, that's how it's always worked.

3. It'll flipflop every few years just like it always does, predicting Republican domination for the foreseeable future is baseless.


Corporate greed is bad, look at this nonsense. They don't care about their workers.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...427-story.html
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  #46  
Old 05-06-2017, 06:06 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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1. Yes.
Why?
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2. Initially yes, but then people are paid more so they can spend more so companies have to hire more again, that's how it's always worked.
Since when? This is pretty much a pay decrease for everyone that makes more than the minimum wage and for many others this means unemployment.
Quote:
3. It'll flipflop every few years just like it always does, predicting Republican domination for the foreseeable future is baseless.
The house doesn't normally flip flop as much.


Quote:
Corporate greed is bad, look at this nonsense. They don't care about their workers.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...427-story.html
Government greed is bad too.

How is that story signaling that they don't care about their workers? They are paying them more. It cites one analyst that is mad about it. Stock prices will always fluctuate too.
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  #47  
Old 05-08-2017, 06:02 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Time did a nice article on the effects of the ACA on things like personal bankruptcy. Looks like it helped a hell of a lot, which makes sense.
http://time.com/money/4765443/obamac...uptcy-decline/
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:31 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Time did a nice article on the effects of the ACA on things like personal bankruptcy. Looks like it helped a hell of a lot, which makes sense.
http://time.com/money/4765443/obamac...uptcy-decline/
I wouldn't doubt that.
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:52 AM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Yea from what I understand there is no minimum wage in Denmark.
Pretty much all jobs are unionized however and so the wage is determined by collective bargaining by economic sector.

It's the unions at work not a mandatory minimum wage or a "living wage" or whatever.
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:05 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I like the idea of ease of entry into the market creating competition causing wages to rise. That along with higher worker capital by making public schools better and pushing people towards trades instead of unemployable degrees. Anything that causes the cost of living to drop is going to benefit people at the lower wages too.

Baring that though a negative income tax would be better than a minimum wage. You can't pay people more than they are worth without leading to unemployment. That isn't a value judgement on someone's personal worth but what they contribute to a company. Investing in your ability to satisfy the needs of other people is a big part of life. You can't force people to carry your weight because you were more concerned with more personal self-indulgent activities. You just made a choice to care about something else and that opportunity cost isn't other people's problem so you need to live a more modest material life.
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