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  #7151  
Old Yesterday, 11:25 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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They weren't this bad in Vanilla. What you believe also conflicts with several Forsaken fans who believe they're heroes, or to Horde players who support Forsaken actions against the Alliance because "fuck them".
They were a vague notion of a faction in vanilla with three zones (two of them half-assed and incomplete as hell) to their name. The few quests they did have involved them mostly collecting ingredients for their life-ending blight.

The Horde in general, and the Forsaken in particular were not properly established until Cataclysm to my mind.

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That is terrible for players who enjoyed WC3, Vanilla, and Vol'Jin's short attempt at change. Saurfang is seemingly starting a rebellion, 8.1 has Baine frustrated with Sylvanas, for whatever reason, Lor'themor isn't involved, and then there's Vol'Jin saying he'll make sure Sylvanas is a just ruler. Something to that effect. I don't think Sylvanas will die. She will probably get a redemption somehow, but the Horde is splintering.
I don't see how it's terrible for them, it's a new story, a new situation. The point of a story or a video game shouldn't always be to make the player feel good about themselves and what's going on. How can there ever be conflict if the player just always automatically wins and does the right thing?

So far BfA has shown it's willing to allow for things like Pyrrhic victories and letting the player fail and not necessarily get what they expect or want.

So yeah, the 'noble horde' still would exist in this scenario, it would just be in an impossible situation and wouldn't be able to do anything about Sylvanas without putting themselves at risk of righteous judgement from the Alliance.

I REALLY hope all this Saurfang stuff is a tease and not just ANOTHER Siege of Orgrimmar situation. That'd be so unbelievably pathetic.

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It is rather interesting reading that the Horde players were told their faction is heroic during Classic, yet then you read John Staats and his diary on the development of World of Warcraft explaining how most of the Classic team considered the Horde "the evil faction", and how the undead were considered "the most evil of them all", or you open the old promotional materials, manual, introductory scenes and read about the Undercity as "a sprawling bastion of evil", the Forsaken as "disciples of doom", the Alliance armies fighting the "merciless Horde" in faraway lands, and so on.

It is almost as if this dualism between "noble savage" and "merciless evil" has been present in the Horde since the very conception of World of Warcraft, and people just use the "good old days" fallacy to feel more justified in their toxic behavior towards the modern development team.
Primarily the Horde was kind of an afterthought in Classic WoW. I don't think the game or manual present them particularly as "pure evil" or anything (particularly the Orcs -- who were pretty cuddly back in those days, Garrosh an obvious attempt to give the Orcs back some of their edge). But I don't really think it's possible to ascertain any sort of agenda or message with them.

As to the manual, I don't recall Tyrande EVER being referred to as a Princess, and if anything that sounds like a typing error to me from "Priestess". I also can't think of any other major contradictions like that in the manuals. Nor do I think that's all that relevant anyway.
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  #7152  
Old Today, 01:41 AM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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This isn't a new situation

This isn't a new story.

This isn't even a new fucking plot arc.

It's terrible because it's terribly written, using a format that ensures disappointment, and with as much care and tact as rocket blasting a square peg into a round hole.

ANd we've been here already. That's why we're telling blizzard to hurry the fuck up and get to the credits so we can get back to ignoring each other while the Old Gods show up.

If the Horde didn't exist in your mind till Cataclysm. then you just didn't play Warcraft 3, where their arc toward Reformation was well underlined. Cataclysm threw Turbulence in that plot, Mists capsized it, and now BfA is just sinking it beneath the waves.

THe Horde is a schizophrenic gaggle of half wanting to be the Hero and half wanting to be "KILL, MAIM, CONQUER" and Blizzard is trying to have both.

TO say they've been catering to one or the other is being willfully obtuse. Every time they've had the "amp up the edge" moments they make certain to throw in some "hey, we're still about honor, don't worry guys uwu" side trip to not entirely fuck up their faction population like they almost did with Teldrasill before they came in with the bucket with Old Soldier.

The fact that Player anger over a story point was making news should tell you how some people feel about their faction. They need to stop trying to serve both, and it should be clear there's a fucking line on how often you can sell wholeslale slaughter and dress it up as justified when even cursory glances can upturn any bullshit Sylvanas tries to sell.

Oh, but now Alliance gets to join the Fun with Purge Squads, that's the only new thing in this expansion. Their answer to fucking the Horde so bad it's practically unsalvagable is to try and fuck up the Alliance too.
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  #7153  
Old Today, 01:44 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
I don't think the game or manual present them particularly as "pure evil" or anything (particularly the Orcs -- who were pretty cuddly back in those days, Garrosh an obvious attempt to give the Orcs back some of their edge). But I don't really think it's possible to ascertain any sort of agenda or message with them.
Agreed. What I meant simply was that the Horde was clearly not "pure heroic" with no shady or even downright morally despicable elements either, it was a mix of both.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
As to the manual, I don't recall Tyrande EVER being referred to as a Princess, and if anything that sounds like a typing error to me from "Priestess". I also can't think of any other major contradictions like that in the manuals. Nor do I think that's all that relevant anyway.
Occupation: Night Elf Priestess of the Moon - Leader of the Sentinel.
Affiliation: The Sentinels
Age: 13,836

Tyrande is an ancient night elf princess and high priestess of the moon goddess, Elune. In ages past, she aided Furion and Illidan Stormrage in their battle to save Kalimdor from the Burning Legion. As well as being Elune's high priestess, she is the leader of the Sentinels a group of warrior women who have sworn to protect Kalimdor's shores while their male counterparts, the druids, sleep in the trance-like Emerald Dream. Tyrande is a fiery warrior and holds certain resentment for shouldering the defense of her land while the druids sleep. Her undying love for Furion Stormrage has given her strength and courage enough to face the centuries alone and uphold her sacred charge to defend Kalimdor from any threat.


This is from her bio in the manual. Both princess and priestess is used in the same sentence, so I doubt it can be a typo in any realistic way. However, as I explained previously, this bio comes from before the Knaak trilogy which retconned Tyrande's Warcraft III age and thus her backstory, and as such, there is no reason to suspect inconsistency between the manual and its game.
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  #7154  
Old Today, 03:54 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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ancient priestess of elune on paper

damsel in distress for blizzard employee's self insert in actuality
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #7155  
Old Today, 11:54 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Ah, Quirnhelm, you never fail to make this a worse place c:
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  #7156  
Old Today, 01:54 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
Ah, Quirnhelm, you never fail to make this a worse place c:
apparently having a contrary opinion = "make this a worse place"

lol
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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