Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > General WarCraft Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 01-11-2007, 09:14 AM
Ersinus Ersinus is offline

Site Staff - News
Ersinus's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 241
Send a message via MSN to Ersinus

Default

I agree that Furion is not a such a nice guy as a Paladin or a priest of the Holy light is. Being an Archdruid and so deeply connected to the nature his character has become like the nature itself. How much you damage the nature, that much the nature will strike back.

But i dont thing its right to compare Velen with Uther or Lothar. He is too much passive. I understand when Draenei escaped from the rest of the Eredar when they were corrupted, Sargeras was still on his all glory back then, and they could not do much against the dark titan. But Velen could have stopped the orcs, at least they could try to severe orcs connection with the demons, like killing Gul'dan or even Ner'Zhul to stop a greater evil. Velen for a guy that is so ancient doesnt have a bit wisdom to see such a thing. He is nowhere near Uther, Lothar or Furion. What Velen had done is just to let his people battle when it was too late and be one of the reasons there is road carved from dreanei skulls.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-11-2007, 09:19 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

Loremaster
Kenzuki's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Gates of Twilight
Posts: 9,950

Default

Velen couldn't have changed it, the future was set in stone. They don't call him a Prophet for nothing you know. I only compared him to Uther or Lothar in that he seems to be a GOOD guy in stead of just a gray guy.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-11-2007, 10:12 AM
Yuber8900 Yuber8900 is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Yuber8900's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,640

Default

Feh, damn score whore.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-11-2007, 10:19 AM
Ersinus Ersinus is offline

Site Staff - News
Ersinus's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 241
Send a message via MSN to Ersinus

Default

So Velen is a prophet who believes that fate already decided and mortals cant change it. Well he must find and go to Medivh and learn how prophetism is done.
Medivh was a prophet (during WC3) who believed that decisions of the mortals effect the fate, and he was there to warn them to make the right decision which will save them. Thats kind of things prophets do, warn and save people before bad things happen, not after.

I hope when the time period before the Draenei arrived on Draenor is revealed or during events of BC we will see Velen in more active role, not just someone who is there just to fill the role as racial leader. I want more from the guy who was one of the leaders of Eredar with Kil'jaeden and Archimonde. From a guy of his caliber epic things are expected.

Ken, i understand your camparison, but i think so far he isnt near to be comparable to Lothar or Uther.
__________________

Last edited by Ersinus; 01-11-2007 at 10:24 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-11-2007, 10:37 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

Loremaster
Kenzuki's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Gates of Twilight
Posts: 9,950

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ersinus
So Velen is a prophet who believes that fate already decided and mortals cant change it. Well he must find and go to Medivh and learn how prophetism is done.
Medivh was a prophet (during WC3) who believed that decisions of the mortals effect the fate, and he was there to warn them to make the right decision which will save them. Thats kind of things prophets do, warn and save people before bad things happen, not after.

I hope when the time period before the Draenei arrived on Draenor is revealed or during events of BC we will see Velen in more active role, not just someone who is there just to fill the role as racial leader. I want more from the guy who was one of the leaders of Eredar with Kil'jaeden and Archimonde. From a guy of his caliber epic things are expected.

Ken, i understand your camparison, but i think so far he isnt near to be comparable to Lothar or Uther.
He did try to change history, even willingly putting himself in harm's way to try to reach the orcs, but it didn't work.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 01-11-2007, 03:08 PM
Yuber8900 Yuber8900 is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Yuber8900's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,640

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuli
He did try to change history, even willingly putting himself in harm's way to try to reach the orcs, but it didn't work.
You should really play Tales of the Abyss.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 01-12-2007, 02:05 AM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

Arch-Druid
Flamestrider's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,068

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ersinus
I agree that Furion is not a such a nice guy as a Paladin or a priest of the Holy light is. Being an Archdruid and so deeply connected to the nature his character has become like the nature itself. How much you damage the nature, that much the nature will strike back.
What makes you think that a paladin is any more likely to be a "nice guy" than anybody else? What about Saiden Dathrohan?
__________________
Many thanks to handclaw for his amazing rendition of Kargath Bladefist, which is now my avatar.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 01-12-2007, 07:54 AM
Ghaztha Ghaztha is offline

Hippogryph
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 194

Default

Saiden Dathrohan is a nice guy, he is only fighting for what he believes in, You need to remember the Holy Light can be used for bad if its used in a way that the person believe what he is doing is right. Thats why Tirion Fordring could still use it after being banished from the Knights of the Silver Hand.

Surely you cannot comdemn someone who fights for what he believes, even if he is your enemy you have to respect what he is doing. Thats what they call Honor
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 01-12-2007, 09:29 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

Loremaster
Kenzuki's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Gates of Twilight
Posts: 9,950

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuber8900
You should really play Tales of the Abyss.
I have played it, it's fun.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 01-12-2007, 09:31 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

Loremaster
Kenzuki's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Gates of Twilight
Posts: 9,950

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghaztha
Saiden Dathrohan is a nice guy, he is only fighting for what he believes in, You need to remember the Holy Light can be used for bad if its used in a way that the person believe what he is doing is right. Thats why Tirion Fordring could still use it after being banished from the Knights of the Silver Hand.

Surely you cannot comdemn someone who fights for what he believes, even if he is your enemy you have to respect what he is doing. Thats what they call Honor
Saiden Dathrohan is Balnazzar dude. He's not a good guy. And yes I can condemn someone who kills innocent people for reasons of paranoia.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 01-12-2007, 09:44 AM
Nephalim Nephalim is offline

Eternal
Nephalim's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,724

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghaztha
Surely you cannot comdemn someone who fights for what he believes, even if he is your enemy you have to respect what he is doing. Thats what they call Honor
I realize that Godwin's Law is probably still in effect, but, well....

Nazis?
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 01-12-2007, 10:15 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

Loremaster
Kenzuki's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Gates of Twilight
Posts: 9,950

Default

Let's Honor the Burning Legion folks.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 01-12-2007, 10:31 AM
Solitus
Guest
Posts: n/a

Default

So long as your enemy is not doing the action in question for the reason of pure chaos or destruction (ie he/she believes that it will make the world better), no matter how twisted or incorrect the action, the enemy is still not evil him/herself.

The Horde is nothing like the Nazi's Third Reich because not every German was evil. On the contrary, during Christmas the Germans came together with the Allied forces in peace for one night. Beyond even this, they weren't doing this for the Nazi's screwed up vision of a pure Aryan state, but rather because they were defending their fatherland. They knew absolutely nothing of the concentration camps or other atrocities that were being committed by their brethren.

In the same vein as this is the middle east in the last fifty years. Suicide bombings are the act of fanatics. The rest of the populance who claim membership in Hezbollah or Hamas are instead fighting for their own homes (which were seized and distributed by over-zealous Israeli forces during the initial creation of the state and during the 1973 war as well.)

Even our trials in Iraq aren't against purely fanatical forces. If you can make a stretch and see the perspective of the person on the other side, you'll see that most times it isn't some evil group bent on world domination, but rather it is a group fighting for something they lost and must now regain.

Would you call Draenei terrorists for attempting to take back Outland from the Legion? Would you call the Blood Elves evil for attempting to merely survive when they truly believe they'll die without magic?
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 01-12-2007, 11:14 AM
Yuber8900 Yuber8900 is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Yuber8900's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,640

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nephalim
I realize that Godwin's Law is probably still in effect, but, well....

Nazis?
What the hell is up this week......
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 01-12-2007, 11:42 AM
Ghaztha Ghaztha is offline

Hippogryph
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 194

Default

Interesting observation Solitus
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 01-12-2007, 12:02 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

Loremaster
Kenzuki's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Gates of Twilight
Posts: 9,950

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solitus
So long as your enemy is not doing the action in question for the reason of pure chaos or destruction (ie he/she believes that it will make the world better), no matter how twisted or incorrect the action, the enemy is still not evil him/herself.

The Horde is nothing like the Nazi's Third Reich because not every German was evil. On the contrary, during Christmas the Germans came together with the Allied forces in peace for one night. Beyond even this, they weren't doing this for the Nazi's screwed up vision of a pure Aryan state, but rather because they were defending their fatherland. They knew absolutely nothing of the concentration camps or other atrocities that were being committed by their brethren.

In the same vein as this is the middle east in the last fifty years. Suicide bombings are the act of fanatics. The rest of the populance who claim membership in Hezbollah or Hamas are instead fighting for their own homes (which were seized and distributed by over-zealous Israeli forces during the initial creation of the state and during the 1973 war as well.)

Even our trials in Iraq aren't against purely fanatical forces. If you can make a stretch and see the perspective of the person on the other side, you'll see that most times it isn't some evil group bent on world domination, but rather it is a group fighting for something they lost and must now regain.

Would you call Draenei terrorists for attempting to take back Outland from the Legion? Would you call the Blood Elves evil for attempting to merely survive when they truly believe they'll die without magic?
Just because you can justify something to yourself does not make it right.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 01-12-2007, 02:06 PM
Solitus
Guest
Posts: n/a

Default

My point wasn't that the action was justified, but that the people in question aren't automatically evil because of the action. The Orcs should atone for their crimes against the Draenei, but I consider neither race evil (or people within the race) until they show themselves as selfish, corrupt, and willing to destroy the world just to gain power.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 01-12-2007, 02:31 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

Loremaster
Kenzuki's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Gates of Twilight
Posts: 9,950

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solitus
My point wasn't that the action was justified, but that the people in question aren't automatically evil because of the action. The Orcs should atone for their crimes against the Draenei, but I consider neither race evil (or people within the race) until they show themselves as selfish, corrupt, and willing to destroy the world just to gain power.
Which the orcs did. They were evil at that point in time. Actions define one's alignment as well as one's motives. They were paranoid and CHOSE that path for themselves.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 01-12-2007, 02:45 PM
Solitus
Guest
Posts: n/a

Default

True, and now they have to atone for their crimes, though they likely won't within the span of WoW/tBC.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 01-12-2007, 05:37 PM
Yuber8900 Yuber8900 is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Yuber8900's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,640

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solitus
True, and now they have to atone for their crimes, though they likely won't within the span of WoW/tBC.
Like they even want to atone.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 01-12-2007, 06:01 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,914

Default

Quote:
The Horde is nothing like the Nazi's Third Reich because not every German was evil. On the contrary, during Christmas the Germans came together with the Allied forces in peace for one night.
Right nation, wrong war.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 01-12-2007, 06:17 PM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

Arch-Druid
Flamestrider's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,068

Default

Quote:
The Horde is nothing like the Nazi's Third Reich because not every German was evil. On the contrary, during Christmas the Germans came together with the Allied forces in peace for one night. Beyond even this, they weren't doing this for the Nazi's screwed up vision of a pure Aryan state, but rather because they were defending their fatherland. They knew absolutely nothing of the concentration camps or other atrocities that were being committed by their brethren.
Sure, by the end of the war they were fighting to defend their fatherland. But before that, they were fighting because they thought it was a good idea to invade other people's fatherland. It was an undisguised territory grab, and Hitler knew very well that other countries were not happy with the prospect of him invading Poland and Czechoslovakia. He just also happened to know that, because of the success of isolationist movements throughout America and Western Europe, it would be a long time before anybody did anything about it. Hitler decided to invade neighboring countries because he wanted to make his own stronger. It wasn't self defense.

And the Christmas you're thinking of occurred in World War I.

Incidentally, I agree with you on the stuff about the middle east. But I'm not talking about random German soldiers. I'm talking about Hitler. And if there ever was one, Hitler was an evil man.

Also, fighting for what you believe in does not make you a nice guy. Nor does fighting evil. Garithos was fighting for the survival of the people the Lordaeron, which was certainly a noble goal. He wasn't evil. But he was an asshole, not a nice guy. Uther was a nice guy. You can't say there was no difference.
__________________
Many thanks to handclaw for his amazing rendition of Kargath Bladefist, which is now my avatar.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 01-13-2007, 07:31 AM
Ghaztha Ghaztha is offline

Hippogryph
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 194

Default

ok, maybe i was wrong in saying Saiden is a nice guy, but i do believe that if someone is fighting for what he believes, then who can call him wrong?

ofcourse you can, but thats only because you believe in the opposite
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 01-13-2007, 07:37 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

Loremaster
Kenzuki's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Gates of Twilight
Posts: 9,950

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghaztha
ok, maybe i was wrong in saying Saiden is a nice guy, but i do believe that if someone is fighting for what he believes, then who can call him wrong?

ofcourse you can, but thats only because you believe in the opposite
Saiden no longer exists, it's BALNAZAR now. He's disguised as Saiden. And es, I Can call him wrong. The orcs thought they were doing right by wiping out the draenei, were they?
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 01-13-2007, 08:06 AM
Ghaztha Ghaztha is offline

Hippogryph
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 194

Default

Ken you have my sumbled.. i need to rethink this...

*Goes to think for 5 minutes*

ok, no the orcs did wrong in believing a lie, however the orcs are willing to admit there mistake now and are aware that it is there burden, as for the Draenei i know that almost all Draenei where slain however upon looking on the current orcs of Durotan, most Draenei should be able to see that they are almost like they once where and therefore begin on working towards a apology to the Draenei people, this wont heal all the wounds but it would go a long way to healing those wounds.

However, my Draenei atleast will judge each orc indiviually, However he will be glad to see Thrall, son of Durotan whom he met during his visit to Telmor, ((My Draenei was there to see his family when Orgrim and Durotan where brought by Restalaan)) as there leader, he however will not be seen being nice to Forsaken or Blood elves, Trolls and Tauren will be left to live there life, unless i join a battle where i believe the goal of that battle is a worthy one.

but i clearly need to re-look at what i consider - Honor -
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.