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  #26  
Old 05-27-2007, 06:53 PM
Deathwing Deathwing is offline

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He was a Paladin under the direct tutelage of Uther. He lived to protect what was good, his father, his people. That's what makes him interesting

I know that he would make short work of Jaina but what I meant is that there are good chances that they would meet again in WC4 or 5 and that encounter would be really interesting, I just hope they won't ruin it with cheesy dialogues
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  #27  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:11 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I don't believe it was for a selfish reason like you do. Both Uther DND Tirion thought HIGHLY of Arthas as a paladin. Tirion even hoped his son would one day be like him.
...so? They're not mind-readers. Even Arthas might not have realized why he was doing what he was doing.
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  #28  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:21 PM
Nephalim Nephalim is offline

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Originally Posted by Kenzuki View Post
Both Uther DND Tirion thought HIGHLY of Arthas as a paladin. Tirion even hoped his son would one day be like him.
I would think we can substantively agree at this point that they were wrong to do so.

Arthas was Uther's prized prodigy. Of COURSE he had high hopes for him, that doesn't mean that he had any profound insight on his character. And Tirion knew Arthas mostly by his celebrity. I don't see why we should recognize his opinion as evidence.
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  #29  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:24 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Originally Posted by Nephalim View Post
I would think we can substantively agree at this point that they were wrong to do so.

Arthas was Uther's prized prodigy. Of COURSE he had high hopes for him, that doesn't mean that he had any profound insight on his character. And Tirion knew Arthas mostly by his celebrity. I don't see why we should recognize his opinion as evidence.
So your saying that Arthas was always evil?
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  #30  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:35 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I've said it before, I'll say it again, "Evil" is a very limiting term. He was not always an amoral bastard, no. But he was always a self-centered power hungry spoiled prince.
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  #31  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
Timolas Timolas is offline


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In the mission where Arthas goes on a rampage and murders all those paladins including Uther, the paladins denounce him as a spoiled prince and they always knew it was a mistake to accept him into the Order.
They basically hold his fall from grace and the murder of Terenas as proof of what they always thought of him.

While Arthas was not always evil, he was a rather rash imbecile.
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  #32  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:53 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Well, one of them does. I think he was controversial, but I don't know if everyone recognized him for what he was at first.
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  #33  
Old 05-27-2007, 08:01 PM
Timolas Timolas is offline


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Two out of three shout him down I think. The first one tries to persuade him to stop being a prick, and fails miserably.
EDIT: Or were there only two. I'll replay the mission tomorrow.
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  #34  
Old 05-27-2007, 08:29 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Because we all know that the sting of betrayle didn't cloud their words right? Come on it's like when the Gospels mention Judas Iscariot. At every turn they are quick to say that "he was the one who betrayed him" or some such thing. It's almost as if they were ambarassed by the whole thing. They went so far as to call another of the apostles who was named Judas "Jude" to distance him from the Iscariot. Now that doesn't mean that Judas was always what he became, not by a long shot. What it does mean is that a person's choices reflect what they will become. Arthas was a GOOD paladin and a CHAMPION of his people, that is what the Warcraft III manual says about him. The fact that Ner'zhul manipulated him into falling is a testament that the higher you are in grace, the further you can fall from it.
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  #35  
Old 05-27-2007, 08:52 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I'm gonna take how he acts in WC3 over what the manual says. What challenge did Arthas really have before the Scourge anyway? A couple of rogue trolls? A few blackrock orcs?
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  #36  
Old 05-27-2007, 09:09 PM
Deathwing Deathwing is offline

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Well nobody had fought something as terrible as the Scourge before Arthas, besides the Tirisfal Guardians.


The Scourge murder your friends and turns them against you. Arthas has to fight every former paysant and soliders from his country in dacapitated, zombified form. It's aa challenge none had encounter before.
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  #37  
Old 05-27-2007, 09:26 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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My point was that he never had to struggle with anything.
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  #38  
Old 05-27-2007, 10:11 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
My point was that he never had to struggle with anything.
That's a falsehood, as he did have to struggle with the troll war parties of Zul'Aman.
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  #39  
Old 05-27-2007, 10:15 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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And we all know what an earth shattering battle that was!
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  #40  
Old 05-27-2007, 10:39 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
And we all know what an earth shattering battle that was!
No, we don't. Because it wasn't documented. For all we know it COULD have been something very dangerous.
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  #41  
Old 05-28-2007, 12:12 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Regardless, it clearly wasn't important enough to mention later on.
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  #42  
Old 05-28-2007, 03:30 AM
Vicious Vicious is offline

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While Arthas was glorified by the general populaton of Lordearon, he was also described as an arrogant stuck up by some people who fought with him, when he betrayed his people, the paladins finally had an excuse to talk about that.

He was royalty after all.
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  #43  
Old 05-28-2007, 03:41 AM
Kerrah Kerrah is offline

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I'll put it like this:

Arthas was a virtuous fighter and he did what he thought was right. But his flaw was that he could not draw the line between reasonable virtue and zeal.

As time went by, the need for virtue rose, and Arthas was foolish enough to accept the challenge and become a perfect zealous madman.
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  #44  
Old 05-28-2007, 03:57 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Also, as Mal'ganis taunted him with each failure to stop the plague, it played right into Arthas' weakness of taking defeat personally, which we started seeing hints of when he practically snarled "slay them all" upon failing to save the captured villagers from the Blackrock orcs. He had a habit of seeing setbacks and defeats as personal affronts to his own honor rather than remaining pragmatic and refusing to lose his focus to rage and frustration. It was a trait that carried over in some measure after his conversion to a Death Knight: he took it personally when Sylvanas continued to evade the Scourge's attacks and hampered their advance into Quel'thalas, so when he finally caught up to her, it wasn't enough for him just to kill her. It's the sort of character flaw that one would expect to have been "removed" when he merged with Ner'zhul and replaced by the Lich King's cold detachment, but until we actually see him again, it's hard to say which specific characteristics remain at this point.
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  #45  
Old 05-28-2007, 04:02 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Yeah, that trait sort of comes from his 'need to play the hero'. His inability to cope with failure. He paints a very good picture of himself in his head.
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  #46  
Old 05-28-2007, 10:27 AM
Drirlake Drirlake is offline

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How did this thread turn into another Emo arthas thread?
Lets go back to the original topic
I would like to see a new evil in warcraft 4, maybe Something even greater than the legion and the old gods, I think warcraft 4 will include :

Alliance "Humans,night elfs, High elfs, dwarfs, gnomes, draenei, Night elf allies " Keepers of the groove, Dryads etc..."
Horde "Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Forsaken, Blood elf, Ogres, maybe some goblins?"
And the scourge.
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Pick-up sticks?
Maybe we could settle down together? Hmmm.
At least I stopped short of proposing.
Shani deserves someone normal.
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I have no right to put her and Alvin in that position.
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And sometimes I miss them... her.
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  #47  
Old 05-28-2007, 11:12 AM
Kerrah Kerrah is offline

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The inhabitants of another planet, who happen to come across Azeroth and decide to conquer it?
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Last edited by Kerrah; 05-28-2007 at 11:38 AM..
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  #48  
Old 05-28-2007, 11:33 AM
Nephalim Nephalim is offline

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So your saying that Arthas was always evil?
No, I'm saying he was always weak.
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  #49  
Old 05-28-2007, 03:45 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
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No, I'm saying he was always weak.
Ner'zhul chose Arthas when he was a CHILD, his destiny was chosen for him, he didn't have a choice in the matter.
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  #50  
Old 05-28-2007, 05:42 PM
Timolas Timolas is offline


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuki View Post
Ner'zhul chose Arthas when he was a CHILD, his destiny was chosen for him, he didn't have a choice in the matter.
He could have listened to Jaina, Uther or Muradin.
His destiny was only set because his personality simply fit Ner'zhul's design.

Nothing is ever certain. Heck, with CoT not even the past and things that have happened stay in place.

Arthas could always have chosen the right way. Pretty much like Anakin and the whole dark side thing. Anakin dreamed that Padme would die so he fell to the dark side to prevent it. However his fall to the dark side was what caused her to die. Irony.
Arthas tried to save his people and in doing so gave up his soul. Ironically he became the very driving force that shattered his kingdom.
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