...so? They're not mind-readers. Even Arthas might not have realized why he was doing what he was doing.

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My father was killed by a coward's poison and the wrath of Hellscream...! WHAT CHANCE HAVE YOU!!?

I would think we can substantively agree at this point that they were wrong to do so.

Arthas was Uther's prized prodigy. Of COURSE he had high hopes for him, that doesn't mean that he had any profound insight on his character. And Tirion knew Arthas mostly by his celebrity. I don't see why we should recognize his opinion as evidence.

So your saying that Arthas was always evil?

I've said it before, I'll say it again, "Evil" is a very limiting term. He was not always an amoral bastard, no. But he was always a self-centered power hungry spoiled prince.

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My father was killed by a coward's poison and the wrath of Hellscream...! WHAT CHANCE HAVE YOU!!?

In the mission where Arthas goes on a rampage and murders all those paladins including Uther, the paladins denounce him as a spoiled prince and they always knew it was a mistake to accept him into the Order.
They basically hold his fall from grace and the murder of Terenas as proof of what they always thought of him.

While Arthas was not always evil, he was a rather rash imbecile.

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The best revenge is to be unlike him who performed the injury. -Marcus Aurelius, the true Emperor of Rome

Well, one of them does. I think he was controversial, but I don't know if everyone recognized him for what he was at first.

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My father was killed by a coward's poison and the wrath of Hellscream...! WHAT CHANCE HAVE YOU!!?

Two out of three shout him down I think. The first one tries to persuade him to stop being a prick, and fails miserably.
EDIT: Or were there only two. I'll replay the mission tomorrow.

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The best revenge is to be unlike him who performed the injury. -Marcus Aurelius, the true Emperor of Rome

Because we all know that the sting of betrayle didn't cloud their words right? Come on it's like when the Gospels mention Judas Iscariot. At every turn they are quick to say that "he was the one who betrayed him" or some such thing. It's almost as if they were ambarassed by the whole thing. They went so far as to call another of the apostles who was named Judas "Jude" to distance him from the Iscariot. Now that doesn't mean that Judas was always what he became, not by a long shot. What it does mean is that a person's choices reflect what they will become. Arthas was a GOOD paladin and a CHAMPION of his people, that is what the Warcraft III manual says about him. The fact that Ner'zhul manipulated him into falling is a testament that the higher you are in grace, the further you can fall from it.

I'm gonna take how he acts in WC3 over what the manual says. What challenge did Arthas really have before the Scourge anyway? A couple of rogue trolls? A few blackrock orcs?

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My father was killed by a coward's poison and the wrath of Hellscream...! WHAT CHANCE HAVE YOU!!?

Well nobody had fought something as terrible as the Scourge before Arthas, besides the Tirisfal Guardians.


The Scourge murder your friends and turns them against you. Arthas has to fight every former paysant and soliders from his country in dacapitated, zombified form. It's aa challenge none had encounter before.

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My point was that he never had to struggle with anything.

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My father was killed by a coward's poison and the wrath of Hellscream...! WHAT CHANCE HAVE YOU!!?

That's a falsehood, as he did have to struggle with the troll war parties of Zul'Aman.

And we all know what an earth shattering battle that was!

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My father was killed by a coward's poison and the wrath of Hellscream...! WHAT CHANCE HAVE YOU!!?

No, we don't. Because it wasn't documented. For all we know it COULD have been something very dangerous.

Regardless, it clearly wasn't important enough to mention later on.

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My father was killed by a coward's poison and the wrath of Hellscream...! WHAT CHANCE HAVE YOU!!?

While Arthas was glorified by the general populaton of Lordearon, he was also described as an arrogant stuck up by some people who fought with him, when he betrayed his people, the paladins finally had an excuse to talk about that.

He was royalty after all.

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Warlock, Lord of Scrolls of Lore: Shut up, Timolas

I'll put it like this:

Arthas was a virtuous fighter and he did what he thought was right. But his flaw was that he could not draw the line between reasonable virtue and zeal.

As time went by, the need for virtue rose, and Arthas was foolish enough to accept the challenge and become a perfect zealous madman.

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Co-creator of UFS, a joint urban fantasy setting.

Also, as Mal'ganis taunted him with each failure to stop the plague, it played right into Arthas' weakness of taking defeat personally, which we started seeing hints of when he practically snarled "slay them all" upon failing to save the captured villagers from the Blackrock orcs. He had a habit of seeing setbacks and defeats as personal affronts to his own honor rather than remaining pragmatic and refusing to lose his focus to rage and frustration. It was a trait that carried over in some measure after his conversion to a Death Knight: he took it personally when Sylvanas continued to evade the Scourge's attacks and hampered their advance into Quel'thalas, so when he finally caught up to her, it wasn't enough for him just to kill her. It's the sort of character flaw that one would expect to have been "removed" when he merged with Ner'zhul and replaced by the Lich King's cold detachment, but until we actually see him again, it's hard to say which specific characteristics remain at this point.

Yeah, that trait sort of comes from his 'need to play the hero'. His inability to cope with failure. He paints a very good picture of himself in his head.

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My father was killed by a coward's poison and the wrath of Hellscream...! WHAT CHANCE HAVE YOU!!?

How did this thread turn into another Emo arthas thread?
Lets go back to the original topic
I would like to see a new evil in warcraft 4, maybe Something even greater than the legion and the old gods, I think warcraft 4 will include :

Alliance "Humans,night elfs, High elfs, dwarfs, gnomes, draenei, Night elf allies " Keepers of the groove, Dryads etc..."
Horde "Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Forsaken, Blood elf, Ogres, maybe some goblins?"
And the scourge.

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What was I thinking?
Pick-up sticks?
Maybe we could settle down together? Hmmm.
At least I stopped short of proposing.
Shani deserves someone normal.
Someone who will care for her, not wander the world risking his neck for a handful of coin.
I have no right to put her and Alvin in that position.
I'm a Witcher.
And sometimes I miss them... her. ~Geralt Of Rivia, White wolf.

The inhabitants of another planet, who happen to come across Azeroth and decide to conquer it?

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Co-creator of UFS, a joint urban fantasy setting.

No, I'm saying he was always weak.

Ner'zhul chose Arthas when he was a CHILD, his destiny was chosen for him, he didn't have a choice in the matter.

He could have listened to Jaina, Uther or Muradin.
His destiny was only set because his personality simply fit Ner'zhul's design.

Nothing is ever certain. Heck, with CoT not even the past and things that have happened stay in place.

Arthas could always have chosen the right way. Pretty much like Anakin and the whole dark side thing. Anakin dreamed that Padme would die so he fell to the dark side to prevent it. However his fall to the dark side was what caused her to die. Irony.
Arthas tried to save his people and in doing so gave up his soul. Ironically he became the very driving force that shattered his kingdom.

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The best revenge is to be unlike him who performed the injury. -Marcus Aurelius, the true Emperor of Rome