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  #51  
Old 05-28-2007, 04:44 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Had he did it, the timestream would have been upset and that is not a good thing.
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  #52  
Old 05-28-2007, 04:45 PM
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Well since the events had not yet happened he would not have upset anything by choosing the path of the light.
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  #53  
Old 05-28-2007, 05:04 PM
Deathwing Deathwing is offline

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What happened at the end of the awesome human campaign of WC3 was the best thing that happened in the 3 games
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  #54  
Old 05-28-2007, 05:52 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timolas View Post
Well since the events had not yet happened he would not have upset anything by choosing the path of the light.
Oh, but they did happen. For Krasus forsaw it in Day of the Dragon.
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  #55  
Old 05-28-2007, 05:58 PM
Timolas Timolas is offline


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Originally Posted by Kenzuki View Post
Oh, but they did happen. For Krasus forsaw it in Day of the Dragon.
Foresight is looking into the future, and the future had not yet come to pass. Krasus saw foresaw it because it did in fact happen, but that does not change the fact that Arthas could have made a choice. Since he did not, things are as we know it and the foresight revealed what it did.
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  #56  
Old 05-28-2007, 06:10 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Originally Posted by Timolas View Post
Foresight is looking into the future, and the future had not yet come to pass. Krasus saw foresaw it because it did in fact happen, but that does not change the fact that Arthas could have made a choice. Since he did not, things are as we know it and the foresight revealed what it did.
So if it already happened, and history has to play out it's role. Did he really have a choice?
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  #57  
Old 05-28-2007, 08:25 PM
Nephalim Nephalim is offline

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Originally Posted by Kenzuki View Post
Ner'zhul chose Arthas when he was a CHILD, his destiny was chosen for him, he didn't have a choice in the matter.
That's something of a ridiculous claim, and really, why would Ner'zhul be so picky? For Ner'zhul to select Arthas as his future host and champion would mean that Ner'zhul could pretty much see into the future. Plus, the story in the Warcraft III manual claims that he "sought out the perfect host" as the last line in the Undead history, which puts it after Kel'Thuzad has already begun to spread the Plague through Lordaeron.
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  #58  
Old 05-28-2007, 08:37 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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You tell me why Kel'Thuzad told him that he was chosen before the Scourge was formed then? Or why Krasus saw something dark and horrible in the future of the young prince.

I'de say that the Lich King could indeed see into the future, at least to a certain extent.
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  #59  
Old 05-28-2007, 09:34 PM
Nephalim Nephalim is offline

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Well fine, but to the same extent that anyone that smart would be able to predict the future accurately. He has no gift of prophecy or anything.

And how could Ner'zhul have been able to figure out that he would NEED a host before the Scourge was formed? The Scourge was born with the Lich King. Before that, he was just a sad old orc. Kel'Thuzad was just all hopped up on notions of fate and destiny. He probably believed that the universe had chosen them all to play their parts, etc. etc.

And Krasus saw Arthas' terrible future as a literary device. It's called foreshadowing, and it made about as much sense as anything else that Krasus does.
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  #60  
Old 05-28-2007, 10:11 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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More than anything else, Ner'zhul proved to be apt student of the nature of other beings. He knew which buttons to push and which events to influence down to the smallest details in order to create the desired result. His expanded consciousness allowed him to do so on a level of precision beyond that of a being with a limited, mortal range of sight and apprehension. This all allowed him to predict things because he could measure with near-certainty how they would turn out by accounting for every variable he could, which amounts to a great deal more than any other beings can.

As for true foresight, claiming to "know the future" is likely more the conceit that comes with such immense knowledge and preception than a literal reality. The Lich King cannot account for things beyond his perception, and even his is limited at least to the sphere of Azeroth itself. Events on other worlds could ultimately upset his predeterminations when the ramifications of said events reached Azeroth.

The only being with a true level of foresight would be Nozdormu, and a vital part of said foresight is his inability (or strict, duty-bound unwillingness) to alter undeirable outcomes. If we someday defeat the Scourge, and the Lich King could truly predict the future, then one would expect him to know it's coming and thrash about trying to prevent it no matter how inevitable it was. Additionally, he'd have known his efforts were futile as far back as the events of WC3. The belief in knowing the future often only lasts as long as the future looks bright and fortuitous for the seer himself.
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  #61  
Old 05-28-2007, 11:28 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Here's a neat philosophical question:

Did Ner'zhul chose Arthas? or did Arthas chose Ner'zhul?
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  #62  
Old 05-29-2007, 02:26 AM
Kerrah Kerrah is offline

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Originally Posted by Nephalim View Post
Well fine, but to the same extent that anyone that smart would be able to predict the future accurately. He has no gift of prophecy or anything.

And how could Ner'zhul have been able to figure out that he would NEED a host before the Scourge was formed? The Scourge was born with the Lich King. Before that, he was just a sad old orc. Kel'Thuzad was just all hopped up on notions of fate and destiny. He probably believed that the universe had chosen them all to play their parts, etc. etc.

And Krasus saw Arthas' terrible future as a literary device. It's called foreshadowing, and it made about as much sense as anything else that Krasus does.
Remember that it was Kel'Thuzad who was talking, and he made up the name Scourge. So perhaps he was talking about Arthas being chosen before the name had been chosen, and therefore the scourge had literally been born (from his point of view).
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  #63  
Old 05-29-2007, 02:58 AM
Vicious Vicious is offline

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Quote:
And how could Ner'zhul have been able to figure out that he would NEED a host before the Scourge was formed? The Scourge was born with the Lich King.
Well, according to the Warcraft 3 manual, the Lich King began searching for a host by the time he conquered Northrend, between the 13 years between the second and third war, because he knew KilĀ“jaeden would kill him when the job was done.

It was more common sense than profecy but yeah, he choose "someone thorn between darkness and light" which is a pretty simplified description of Arthas, the Krasus profecy was just Warcraft 3 foreshadowing, like when Deathwing showed Rhonin the Night elves and when Krasus saw the Naga.
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  #64  
Old 05-29-2007, 04:12 AM
emperium emperium is offline

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You tell me why Kel'Thuzad told him that he was chosen before the Scourge was formed then? Or why Krasus saw something dark and horrible in the future of the young prince.
When Kel'thusad said "before the Scourge was formed" I assumed he meant before the plague began to spread in Lordearon. As for Krasus, well I can assume he could see the future but only vaugely. It like me going "Its gonna rain tommorow becouse I can see cloud in the sky". However just becouse I can see "signs" of possible events does not make my statement correct. It could easily not rain.

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Did Ner'zhul chose Arthas? or did Arthas chose Ner'zhul?
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  #65  
Old 05-29-2007, 04:20 AM
Timolas Timolas is offline


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My point was that Arthas could always have turned back up to the point till he took up Frostmourne.
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  #66  
Old 06-16-2007, 11:45 PM
Saim Saim is offline

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Since all of the races have been given equal importance to humans and orcs, it may be good to have multi-race units (that randomly have a different racial model). Or... not.

For races, I would say:
Horde (Orc, Troll, Tauren)
Forsaken (Forsaken, BE)
Alliance (Human, Dwarf, Gnome, Draeni, Broken)
Night Elf (Night Elf, Cenarian)

Storyline ideas:
Varimathras attempts a coup in Undercity, causing the Second Undead Civil War.

A group of Sunfury comes to Silvermoon. Lor'themar is informed of the fact that Kael is working with Demons. Sunfury attack when they learn that Lor'themar has removed all ties with Kael'thas. Rommath and the majority of the Magisters join them.

A group of orcs and draeni are forced to work together to defeat the Illidari Remnants (assuming Illidan's death is canon). Outland is then split into Horde-owned and Alliance-owned territories.
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  #67  
Old 06-17-2007, 02:16 AM
RobLore RobLore is offline

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I think it would be cool if the Titans returned in Wc4.

Alliance/Human Races- Dwarf, Gnome, Draenei, Human
Orc/Horde- Orc, Tauren, Troll and maybe some goblins/orges
Undead- Undead, Mutations, Undead High Elves/Dark Rangers
Nelfs- Allies of Nature, Nelfs
Naga/Old Gods- Faceless Ones, Naga, Murloc, Other Sea Creatures
Demons- Demons, Mutations, Summons

I have some wc4 campaign ideas for all races except Horde.
I may post them later.
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  #68  
Old 06-17-2007, 03:00 AM
Saim Saim is offline

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I don't think Demons should be playable, and if Naga are playable, only if it's because they're playable in WoW.
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  #69  
Old 06-17-2007, 10:44 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
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My point was that Arthas could always have turned back up to the point till he took up Frostmourne.
Could he? That's the real question here.
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  #70  
Old 06-17-2007, 01:36 PM
Vicious Vicious is offline

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hum....the moment he started destroying ships and lying to get his way (which resulted on the death of those mercenaries), he was already past the point of no return, doing all kinds of shit a Paladi would not even consider for a second.
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  #71  
Old 06-17-2007, 04:30 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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hum....the moment he started destroying ships and lying to get his way (which resulted on the death of those mercenaries), he was already past the point of no return, doing all kinds of shit a Paladi would not even consider for a second.
Aye, granted the trolls and ogres were already evil creatures, still a paladin would never betray a pact he made. That's just not what they do. They also do not lie.

"You lied to your men and betrayed the mercenaries who fought for you! What's happening to you Arthas...." - Muradin.
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  #72  
Old 06-17-2007, 09:03 PM
Saim Saim is offline

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What evidence do you have that the trolls and ogres where evil?

And I don't see what the events of the third war have to do with Warcraft IV
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  #73  
Old 06-17-2007, 09:22 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Quote:
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What evidence do you have that the trolls and ogres where evil?
*Sweat runs down brow. Looks around. Sees Scythe standing across the room.* *Gulps* *Looks back, sees Kenzuki at the other end.* *Gulps* *Notices Neph and Flamestrider standing nearby as well*

Oh no...

Run for your lives!
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  #74  
Old 06-18-2007, 01:56 AM
Kerrah Kerrah is offline

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And I don't see what the events of the third war have to do with Warcraft IV
Welcome to the Scrolls of Lore, here threads don't stay in their original purpose for long.

Actually, the longest thread in the forums (WoWmodelviewer creations) has stayed, but it's an annomaly.
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  #75  
Old 06-18-2007, 03:01 PM
Wulfang Wulfang is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerrah View Post
Welcome to the Scrolls of Lore, here threads don't stay in their original purpose for long.

Actually, the longest thread in the forums (WoWmodelviewer creations) has stayed, but it's an annomaly.
The longest thread in these forums is the Legion's home thread, and you can hardly say that one has stayed on track... actually, did we ever have a real purpose with that thread besides a spamfest!?
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