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  #351  
Old 12-15-2011, 04:26 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
And the Horde has not been able to defeat Azeroth or the Alliance with their own plot events. The Horde had to assassinate King Llane in WC1 in order to achieve victory, while the Horde had to enslave the Red Dragonflight and make a back-door deal with Alterac in WC2, and even in Cataclysm, the Horde had to take advantage of the weakened state of the Alliance following the Shattering.
Urm.. how the hell was the alliance in a weakened state in the shattering? They lost some numbers in northrend, but no more then the horde did. That really doesn't count for anything when both sides are on an even standard. (don't tell me your making an assumption of the alliance having less developed lore in cata thus = weak faction?)
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  #352  
Old 12-15-2011, 05:07 PM
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a thought: even with whatever number they picked up from outland and the val'kyr resurrections, the horde must be getting to the point where their spread too thin?
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  #353  
Old 12-15-2011, 05:40 PM
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a thought: even with whatever number they picked up from outland and the val'kyr resurrections, the horde must be getting to the point where their spread too thin?
when you think, the forces that remained in outland (we haven't seen many return, rexxar, nazgrim) the forces still in northrend (Saurfang and over devisions) and with the recent debuckle of Garrosh leading his troops to certain death in the twilight highland and against the quillboar, your right, it doesn't exactly come off like many horde soldiers are surviving or remaining as a whole.
In which case it doesn't make sense, because even before cata, it was often regarded the horde's forces are less then the alliance, yet after cata they can outweigh them? Wheres the thinking in this?
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  #354  
Old 12-15-2011, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
when you think, the forces that remained in outland (we haven't seen many return, rexxar, nazgrim) the forces still in northrend (Saurfang and over devisions) and with the recent debuckle of Garrosh leading his troops to certain death in the twilight highland and against the quillboar, your right, it doesn't exactly come off like many horde soldiers are surviving or remaining as a whole.
In which case it doesn't make sense, because even before cata, it was often regarded the horde's forces are less then the alliance, yet after cata they can outweigh them? Wheres the thinking in this?
It was mostly the RPG books that said the Alliance outnumbered the Horde(by a whole lot too). With them out of the way, blizz can come up with whatever they want now.
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  #355  
Old 12-15-2011, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
Urm.. how the hell was the alliance in a weakened state in the shattering? They lost some numbers in northrend, but no more then the horde did. That really doesn't count for anything when both sides are on an even standard. (don't tell me your making an assumption of the alliance having less developed lore in cata thus = weak faction?)
The Alliance took the bulk of the casualties in Northrend, if for the simple fact that the Scourge seemed to target the Alliance more than the Horde. This in combination with the Forsaken being douchenozzles as usual.
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Wasn't Thoradin a dwarf?
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  #356  
Old 12-15-2011, 06:04 PM
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The Alliance took the bulk of the casualties in Northrend, if for the simple fact that the Scourge seemed to target the Alliance more than the Horde. This in combination with the Forsaken being douchenozzles as usual.
The Forsaken killed an equal number of Horde troops at the battle of the Wrathgate. So, yes, the losses were pretty much equal on both sides.
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  #357  
Old 12-15-2011, 06:10 PM
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The Alliance took the bulk of the casualties in Northrend, if for the simple fact that the Scourge seemed to target the Alliance more than the Horde. This in combination with the Forsaken being douchenozzles as usual.
Thrall comments in the same book that the Alliance has their wake, that the Horde lost "a generation" in Northrend.
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  #358  
Old 12-15-2011, 06:21 PM
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The Forsaken killed an equal number of Horde troops at the battle of the Wrathgate. So, yes, the losses were pretty much equal on both sides.
That's in addition to the ones that they killed in Howling Fjord and the ones the Orcs killed in Icecrown.

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Thrall comments in the same book that the Alliance has their wake, that the Horde lost "a generation" in Northrend.
That was Thrall being metaphorical. I sincerely doubt they literally lost an entire generation. He's talking about the psychological toll, not a literal one.
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Wasn't Thoradin a dwarf?
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You are right Fojar.
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  #359  
Old 12-15-2011, 06:22 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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That's in addition to the ones that they killed in Howling Fjord and the ones the Orcs killed in Icecrown.
Note the humans shot first in Howling Fjord and killed several Forsaken, and the Broken Front killed the Horde troops as well as the Alliance.
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  #360  
Old 12-15-2011, 06:28 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Fojar, I know your bias to anything to do with the alliance, especially thinking that the alliance could be more the victim then the horde, but purposely ignoring the horde having lost as many forces in the scourge war as the alliance isn't constructive, come on...
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  #361  
Old 12-15-2011, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
Note the humans shot first in Howling Fjord and killed several Forsaken, and the Broken Front killed the Horde troops as well as the Alliance.
We don't know who shot first, but that's beside the point. The Forsaken lost some troops but the Alliance lost a fleet.

The Broken Front costed the Alliance an army and the Horde some scouts.

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Fojar, I know your bias to anything to do with the alliance, especially thinking that the alliance could be more the victim then the horde, but purposely ignoring the horde having lost as many forces in the scourge war as the alliance isn't constructive, come on...
I'm not. They just didn't lose as many. Arthas personally led an attack on Valgarde and sent Naxxramas against the Alliance. The closest thing the Horde can claim is that Kel'thuzad personally led the attack on Warsong Hold but that wasn't much worse than what Valiance Keep weathered.
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Wasn't Thoradin a dwarf?
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You are right Fojar.
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  #362  
Old 12-15-2011, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
We don't know who shot first, but that's beside the point. The Forsaken lost some troops but the Alliance lost a fleet.

The Broken Front costed the Alliance an army and the Horde some scouts.
So Vengeance Landing alone took out a whole Alliance fleet? Impressive. I clearly need to replay this.

Though isn't the Alliance much larger in population base than the Horde anyway? The Horde consists entirely of races that were almost obliterated at one point (or technically were, in the Forsaken's case) until Cataclysm, while the Alliance's races have had continuously stable population bases, except gnomes and the clearly forgettable draenei.
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  #363  
Old 12-15-2011, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
So Vengeance Landing alone took out a whole Alliance fleet? Impressive. I clearly need to replay this.

Though isn't the Alliance much larger in population base than the Horde anyway? The Horde consists entirely of races that were almost obliterated at one point (or technically were, in the Forsaken's case) until Cataclysm, while the Alliance's races have had continuously stable population bases, except gnomes and the clearly forgettable draenei.
Not really. Stormwind was decimated in the First War, numerous other kingdoms severely damaged in the second, and the heartland of Alliance power eradicated in the Third. The Night Elves have never had large numbers either.
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Wasn't Thoradin a dwarf?
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You are right Fojar.
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  #364  
Old 12-15-2011, 06:57 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Not really. Stormwind was decimated in the First War, numerous other kingdoms severely damaged in the second, and the heartland of Alliance power eradicated in the Third. The Night Elves have never had large numbers either.
Numerous? The only one I can think of that was severely damaged was Stromgarde. Stormwind's population has clearly recovered by the time of WoW, and humans as a whole were never in danger of being rendered extinct in the first place. And night elves may have had relatively small populations, but they were quite sustainable and didn't seem to be that unduly disrupted by the Third War.
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  #365  
Old 12-15-2011, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
Numerous? The only one I can think of that was severely damaged was Stromgarde. Stormwind's population has clearly recovered by the time of WoW, and humans as a whole were never in danger of being rendered extinct in the first place. And night elves may have had relatively small populations, but they were quite sustainable and didn't seem to be that unduly disrupted by the Third War.
Rofl, yes they were. When Arthas returned he began hunting down human survivors. We also know that the Scourge was pushing South into Gilneas.

If the Dread Lords went along with the Scourge then the only remaining human kingdoms would be Stormwind and Kul Tiras.

That's assuming that the Scourge didn't continue to push into other nations. The Scourge and the plague were created to destroy the humans. Saying they were never in danger is bull shit.

And they have have not recovered, they still have a lot of their kingdom to rebuild. Gold shire used to be a city, now it is nothing but a small village.

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  #366  
Old 12-15-2011, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
Numerous? The only one I can think of that was severely damaged was Stromgarde. Stormwind's population has clearly recovered by the time of WoW, and humans as a whole were never in danger of being rendered extinct in the first place. And night elves may have had relatively small populations, but they were quite sustainable and didn't seem to be that unduly disrupted by the Third War.
Stromgarde was hit hard, Kul'tiras lost lots of troops and Eastern Lordaeron was hit hard by the war.

Stormwind's population has only recovered because it was the only safe haven for humanity in the Eastern Kingdoms, and hence everyone who had their home destroyed ended up there. Humanity came very close to extinction, and the entire Eastern Kingdoms would've fallen to the Scourge if not for Illidan and Kil'jaeden.
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Wasn't Thoradin a dwarf?
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You are right Fojar.
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  #367  
Old 12-15-2011, 07:11 PM
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That still doesn't come close to comparing to your planet being torn apart, your faction being decimated, and the survivors of you being thrown into internment camps with no will to fight or live.

Still I know where this debate is heading now, like always does. Clue, it begins with an L
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  #368  
Old 12-15-2011, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
That still doesn't come close to comparing to your planet being torn apart, your faction being decimated, and the survivors of you being thrown into internment camps with no will to fight or live.

Still I know where this debate is heading now, like always does. Clue, it begins with an L
Oh yes, we all know that the Orcs are the true victims of the Second War, TP.
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Wasn't Thoradin a dwarf?
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  #369  
Old 12-15-2011, 07:19 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Oh yes, we all know that the Orcs are the true victims of the Second War, TP.
Certainly they lost more territory and population.
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  #370  
Old 12-15-2011, 07:20 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Oh yes, we all know that the Orcs are the true victims of the Second War, TP.
Sorry but anything you have say in comparison to it always leads back to the alliance being the victims even when there shitting on orc slaves for amusement (and that did happen)
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  #371  
Old 12-15-2011, 07:23 PM
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Certainly they lost more territory and population.
Trolololololololol
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  #372  
Old 12-15-2011, 07:24 PM
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Oh yes, we all know that the Orcs are the true victims of the Second War, TP.
Derailing. no one's talking about victims we're talking about material loss.
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  #373  
Old 12-15-2011, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
Sorry but anything you have say in comparison to it always leads back to the alliance being the victims even when there shitting on orc slaves for amusement (and that did happen)
Yes, some bad apples abused prisoners. Nobody is denying that. Should we tally up all the bad apples that the Orcish Horde had in comparison to those in the Alliance? I don't think you'd like that.

Quote:
Derailing. no one's talking about victims we're talking about material loss.
What the Orcs lost (due to their own fault, I might add) they made up for in Warcraft 3 and Cataclysm.
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Wasn't Thoradin a dwarf?
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  #374  
Old 12-15-2011, 07:31 PM
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What the Orcs lost (due to their own fault, I might add) they made up for in Warcraft 3 and Cataclysm.
Yes their fault. No they haven't really made it up since half a planet does not equal a whole planet.

EDIT:

Not saying they should, but again i'm just fact correcting here.
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  #375  
Old 12-15-2011, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
Yes their fault. No they haven't really made it up since half a planet does not equal a whole planet.

EDIT:

Not saying they should, but again i'm just fact correcting here.
They didn't control the entirety of Draenor. It was split between them, the Draenei, and various other races such as the Arakkoa.
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Wasn't Thoradin a dwarf?
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