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  #101  
Old 04-28-2012, 04:21 AM
Niars Niars is offline

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Originally Posted by Lowtide View Post
... why Kael?
He was a bloodmage and not a warlock.
Wasn't the idea that the fire used by blood mages was "dark" anyway? Plus they did have banish. And bear in mind how verdant spheres are purportedly made...
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Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler:
I've always been partial to orcs. Also liked the nelfs when they were fierce.


Last edited by Niars; 04-28-2012 at 05:27 AM..
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  #102  
Old 04-28-2012, 04:25 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by Niars View Post
Wasn't the idea that the fire used by blood mages was "dark" anyway? Plus they did have banish. And bear in mind how verdant spheres are made...
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This powerful arcane artifact appears to be a sphere of green magical fire that hovers around the owner in much the same way an ioun stone orbits its owner's head. Legend has it the orb siphons a portion of the essence of every evil outsider slain by its owner. The orb draws on the essence of these demons for its own powers, the spirits writhing in torment within it for all eternity.
Isn't that from the RPG ? Therefore non-canon ?
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  #103  
Old 04-28-2012, 05:22 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowtide View Post
... why Kael?
He was a bloodmage and not a warlock.
Blood Elf society pre-re-ignition of the Sunwell seemed to imply that there was no distinction made between the mages and the Warlocks; they were simply the Magisters and the Magistrata of the elves. It always seemed to me that "Blood Mage" were Thalassian Mages and Warlocks, the same way that elven paladins are "Blood Knights", Elven hunters and rogues (and possibly warriors) being "Farstriders", Tauren Paladins and Priests being "Sunwalkers" and so on.

Page 10 of the Frozen Throne manual states about the Blood Mage hero unit; "While they were still members of the Alliance, the blood elves began to turn to the darkest parts of magic, abandoning the water and frost spells of the Kirin Tor for the fire and heat of what some people fear to be demonic magic.
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  #104  
Old 04-28-2012, 05:26 AM
Niars Niars is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
Isn't that from the RPG ? Therefore non-canon ?
True, but the only lore available nonetheless, and it does work towards explaining the colour. Generally speaking I ignore the "non-canon" tag attached to the RPG material unless it directly contradicts or is explained in-game or in a novel in a different manner. I don't see any reason not to


Edit: However I will change it to "purportedly" made to satisfy the potential anger this may cause.
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Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler:
I've always been partial to orcs. Also liked the nelfs when they were fierce.

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  #105  
Old 04-28-2012, 05:26 AM
Lowtide Lowtide is offline

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Originally Posted by Niars View Post
Wasn't the idea that the fire used by blood mages was "dark" anyway? Plus they did have banish. And bear in mind how verdant spheres are made...
There was something about the Kirin Tor forbidding fire magic but I can't really remember. I won't argue that Kael was a few steps down the left hand path but, imho, not a full blown one. He always uses mage spells (especially Pyroblast is a signature mage spell) and not a single warlock one.
True but Kel'thuzad had Dark Pact. Doesn't make him a warlock, I'd say.
That's non canon. And I don't know how far minor glyphs can be taken seriously Haven't seen people using swords and wearing platemail bursting into flames/leaving a trail of flames so far (except Fojar maybe).

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
Blood Elf society pre-re-ignition of the Sunwell seemed to imply that there was no distinction made between the mages and the Warlocks; they were simply the Magisters and the Magistrata of the elves. It always seemed to me that "Blood Mage" were Thalassian Mages and Warlocks, the same way that elven paladins are "Blood Knights", Elven hunters and rogues (and possibly warriors) being "Farstriders", Tauren Paladins and Priests being "Sunwalkers" and so on.

Page 10 of the Frozen Throne manual states about the Blood Mage hero unit; "While they were still members of the Alliance, the blood elves began to turn to the darkest parts of magic, abandoning the water and frost spells of the Kirin Tor for the fire and heat of what some people fear to be demonic magic.
I don't know. When Sunreaver asks for Silvermoon support, Rommath says he won't send his magisters to Dalaran. And I don't know a single Bloodmage or Magister NPC who is a warlock. Feel free to prove me wrong
Fear, yeah. Like I said, the Kirin Tor forbade fire magic because it was considered demonic and unstable or something like that.
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Last edited by Lowtide; 04-28-2012 at 05:34 AM..
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  #106  
Old 04-28-2012, 05:33 AM
Niars Niars is offline

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Originally Posted by Lowtide View Post
There was something about the Kirin Tor forbidding fire magic but I can't really remember. I won't argue that Kael was a few steps down the left hand path but, imho, not a full blown one. He always uses mage spells (especially Pyroblast is a signature mage spell) and not a single warlock one.
True but Kel'thuzad had Dark Pact. Doesn't make him a warlock, I'd say.
That's non canon. And I don't know how far minor glyphs can be taken seriously Haven't seen people using swords and wearing platemail bursting into flames/leaving a trail of flames so far (except Fojar maybe).
Not at all suggesting Kael was a Warlock. I am, however, suggesting that as mages go, he was fairly close to one. Destruction Warlocks tend to focus on the flame rather than shadow (in game, at least) and the manual does suggest the use of darker aspects of flame, the 'possible' origin of verdant spheres (which may come from the RPG, but adding it to Warlocks as a glyph does somewhat reinforce it, even if it's a minor one) suggests early use of the Fel to empower magic, the use of Banish, etc.
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If you could play any race in WoW lore, what would it be? Why?
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler:
I've always been partial to orcs. Also liked the nelfs when they were fierce.

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  #107  
Old 04-28-2012, 05:56 AM
Lowtide Lowtide is offline

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Originally Posted by Niars View Post
Not at all suggesting Kael was a Warlock. I am, however, suggesting that as mages go, he was fairly close to one. Destruction Warlocks tend to focus on the flame rather than shadow (in game, at least) and the manual does suggest the use of darker aspects of flame, the 'possible' origin of verdant spheres (which may come from the RPG, but adding it to Warlocks as a glyph does somewhat reinforce it, even if it's a minor one) suggests early use of the Fel to empower magic, the use of Banish, etc.
True and true.
I'd just prefer to see warlocks get a new and fresh batch of "role models". I'm sick of Gul'dan, Kael and Illidan everywhere. And I'd rather have them leave Kael to mages. They sorely lack in the deparment of fiery individuals (aside from the God Redhead and his raptor armoy).

Considering the quotes are gone from the talents (for now) anyway, my guess is they rather settled for an ingame book to give a nod to various contributors rather than obscure quotes no one gets.
Although I really liked the idea.
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  #108  
Old 04-28-2012, 06:30 AM
Niars Niars is offline

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Originally Posted by Lowtide View Post
True and true.
I'd just prefer to see warlocks get a new and fresh batch of "role models". I'm sick of Gul'dan, Kael and Illidan everywhere. And I'd rather have them leave Kael to mages. They sorely lack in the deparment of fiery individuals (aside from the God Redhead and his raptor armoy).

Considering the quotes are gone from the talents (for now) anyway, my guess is they rather settled for an ingame book to give a nod to various contributors rather than obscure quotes no one gets.
Although I really liked the idea.
I suppose with Warlocks still being as they are, they'd have to find somewhere to actually put those 6. I'd quite like to see Locks get something like Death Gate, which took them to a pocket of the Nether where they'd set up a secret coven, or something.
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If you could play any race in WoW lore, what would it be? Why?
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler:
I've always been partial to orcs. Also liked the nelfs when they were fierce.

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  #109  
Old 04-28-2012, 07:09 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowtide View Post
He always uses mage spells (especially Pyroblast is a signature mage spell) and not a single warlock one.
Blood Magi uses Banish and Siphon Mana.

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Originally Posted by Lowtide View Post
True but Kel'thuzad had Dark Pact. Doesn't make him a warlock, I'd say.
Necromancy is Nathrezim in origin. While not fel magic, it'd certainly count as "dark magic ala demons". Necromancers are certainly dark magic practioneers, and the Scourge has its origins in the Shadow Council of Draenor.

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Originally Posted by Lowtide View Post
I don't know. When Sunreaver asks for Silvermoon support, Rommath says he won't send his magisters to Dalaran.
Rommath being the one who brought Illidan's teachings back to Quel'thalas (that is, the art of siphoning magic from demons rather than the Sunwell for sustenance) in the first place, thus turning the entirety of the Blood Elven race into Warlocks?

In the Shadow of the Sun also takes place Post-re-ignition. I specifically mentioned it being Pre-re-ignition of the Sunwell.

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And I don't know a single Bloodmage or Magister NPC who is a warlock. Feel free to prove me wrong
That'd be because the entire race uses fel magic by default. It's kind of the definition of a Blood Elf and what seperates them from a High Elf.

Thus, a mage using demon blood in order to cast magic would be... Well? What would you call such a mage? ó_ó

I'm not saying that Blood Magi are Warlocks; I'm saying that at a certain era in Thalassian history, the Magisters and Magistrata did not differentiate between Warlocks and Mages. For all intents and purposes, Magisters were caster-inclined Blood Elves.

That is my position on the matter, at the very least, and I've yet to see anything that would speak against it.
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  #110  
Old 04-28-2012, 07:30 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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We also have to consider that the strict distinctions between mages, warlocks and necromancers don't really exist in the lore. Any mage can turn to fel magic or necromancy if he wants to just like any necromancers or warlock is still able to cast "mage" spells. What sets them apart (besides the magic school they practice/prefer) are mostly their moral values, and most people wouldn't even be able to differentiate between them.
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  #111  
Old 04-28-2012, 08:08 AM
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That, and fashion sense.
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  #112  
Old 04-28-2012, 08:26 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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That, and fashion sense.
Sure, but the fashion sense distinctions are mostly made with the players in mind
I doubt a Warlock would walk around in tier clothes if he knew people would recognize his profession through them
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  #113  
Old 04-28-2012, 08:33 AM
Lowtide Lowtide is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
Blood Magi uses Banish and Siphon Mana.
Yes, the hero unit in WC 3. I was referring to Kael's appearances in WoW.

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
Rommath being the one who brought Illidan's teachings back to Quel'thalas (that is, the art of siphoning magic from demons rather than the Sunwell for sustenance) in the first place, thus turning the entirety of the Blood Elven race into Warlocks?
I remember he taught them how to forcefully take arcane energy from other beings. And that demons are chock full of it. And that it's dangerous and causes fel taint. Not how to train your average citizen in summoning and subduing demons and how to drain souls in little pink prisons to fuel devastating magic.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
Thus, a mage using demon blood in order to cast magic would be... Well? What would you call such a mage? ó_ó
What would you call a knight using holy power he leeched from a cosmic being? Leech Knight? Space Mugger in Sparkly Armor? Blood Knight?
I kid.
I assumed they renamed themselves Bloodmages (because Kael was labeled as one well before he even met Illidan) to seperate themselves from the Arch Mages and Arcanists of the Kirin Tor and High Elves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
In the Shadow of the Sun also takes place Post-re-ignition. I specifically mentioned it being Pre-re-ignition of the Sunwell.

I'm not saying that Blood Magi are Warlocks; I'm saying that at a certain era in Thalassian history, the Magisters and Magistrata did not differentiate between Warlocks and Mages. For all intents and purposes, Magisters were caster-inclined Blood Elves.

That is my position on the matter, at the very least, and I've yet to see anything that would speak against it.
I'll just agree first off, I don't want to "tunnel vision" on ingame references and, secondly, the lore is sadly lacking in that regard, or rather, not saying anything different so you might very well be right.
Also, it just occured to me I may have gotten a bit "personal" there, considering your nickname and your favorite class. I didn't mean to

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
We also have to consider that the strict distinctions between mages, warlocks and necromancers don't really exist in the lore. Any mage can turn to fel magic or necromancy if he wants to just like any necromancers or warlock is still able to cast "mage" spells. What sets them apart (besides the magic school they practice/prefer) are mostly their moral values, and most people wouldn't even be able to differentiate between them.
While true, I'd call a necromancer or a warlock* someone who is devoted to the path he has chosen (same for mages, although those are the guys who prefer to stay away from it) and has acquired some deeper knowledge of these things.
Sure, necromancer Bob who just joined the Cult might still know his handy old fireball but why throw it when you can leech the life out of someone?
Afterall, there's a reason people head down these forbidden paths.

And I can't write for shit today. Fucking sun baked my brain.

*See original meaning of warlock, being "oathbreaker", someone who has begun to dabble in forbidden arts.
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Last edited by Lowtide; 04-28-2012 at 08:42 AM..
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  #114  
Old 04-29-2012, 04:45 AM
Darkphoenix Darkphoenix is offline

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I think some people here are forgetting one thing: Not all Warlocks are radical Mages gone wrong; some, namely the Orcs, we're once Shamans. Knowing this, isn't it logical to presume that some of these once-shaman would of coarse keep looking into the Elements for greater power?
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  #115  
Old 04-29-2012, 07:48 AM
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Where are you guys getting your information from in that the Blood elves view Warlocks and Mages as the same thing? Or whatever along that line.
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  #116  
Old 04-29-2012, 08:17 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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So when do you guys think will druids start to do the same thing? There are many cultures/factions they could learn from. The Amani, Drakkari, Druids of the Flame (they even have a copy of their spellbook), Twilights Hammer (with their perverted ancients), the reawakened Ancients and the Loa.
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  #117  
Old 04-29-2012, 08:19 AM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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I just noticed that the human sharing the secret of illidian transformation is the thing that allowed warlocks to use Metamorphosis

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  #118  
Old 04-29-2012, 08:21 AM
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I just noticed that the human sharing the secret of illidian transformation is the thing that allowed warlocks to use Metamorphosis
Poor player. He'll get hounded by all the people who wanted playable demon Hunters. Maybe Blizzard wanted to get rid of him and decided to arrange his assassination indirectly.
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  #119  
Old 04-29-2012, 12:29 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Blizzard won't be content till I'm a damned Warlock will they!

I'm hoping they do more with this, more specificly, I hope they do something similar with all classes. Spec based characters for both factions all about. Sure would make things a little more interesting.

That said, on the Blood Mages things, it's already been quoted, but:

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Many of the stoic high elves, reeling from the loss of their ancient homeland, Quel'Thalas, have given in to their hatred and despair and embraced the dark side of their magical natures. Calling themselves 'Blood Elves' - these cold hearted refugees seek to expand their remaining magical powers at any cost - even if it means courting the infernal powers of the Burning Legion! Though still loyal to the Alliance, the Blood Elves' passions will lead them not only to the highest pinnacles of power, but to the darkest depths of madness.
That's the Blood Mage description from Warcraft 3. It essentially paints them as Warlocks, and named mostly due to their peoples name of "Blood Elves". Meaning there are two blood mages

The Blood Elf sort which are Warlocks.
Those like the Gnome in Blasted Lands who uses blood.
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  #120  
Old 04-29-2012, 02:43 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Someone mentioned these guys were based on players.

Which players?
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  #121  
Old 04-29-2012, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Silveraith View Post
Where are you guys getting your information from in that the Blood elves view Warlocks and Mages as the same thing? Or whatever along that line.
Yeah, it could just be an in-game thing, but I thought the warlock HQ being in a shady alley suggested that they weren't fully trusted. Respected but feared, perhaps. The location of class trainers in a city tends to say something about how that race views that class, and it's only the Forsaken who have warlocks and mages in the same place.

Edit: OK, and the tauren, because the mage and warlock trainers are all Forsaken in the Forsaken area. And Orgrimmar, but that might say more about how they view mages...

Last edited by Bryn; 04-29-2012 at 07:24 PM..
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  #122  
Old 04-29-2012, 07:55 PM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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I just noticed that the human sharing the secret of illidian transformation is the thing that allowed warlocks to use Metamorphosis
I thought that was a cool little mention, and yet it gets a gif of facepalms?
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  #123  
Old 04-30-2012, 12:40 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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I thought that was a cool little mention, and yet it gets a gif of facepalms?
It's a facepalm to my own lack of vision.
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  #124  
Old 04-30-2012, 12:44 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porimlys View Post
I thought that was a cool little mention.
I dunno, it doesn't sit well with me. But then again I've never liked Metamorphosis as a Warlock ability.
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  #125  
Old 05-14-2012, 05:25 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Apparently they have been renamed to the Council of the Black Harvest
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