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  #126  
Old 06-23-2012, 11:24 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Nobody had any way of knowing what the status of Quel'thalas and Dalaran was because Jaina and company had already left at that point. Plus, Lordaeron the continent DIDN'T fall to the Legion. Gilneas wasn't crippled until WotLK and Stromgarde wasn't crippled by the Scourge. Kul'Tiras wasn't crippled either.
That's what we were talking about - in WoW. As far as WC3 was concerned, everything went to shit and the Alliance was living its last days.

I even remember whenever someone was doing a fan "continuation" after WC3 it was always centered around the remaining people defending against the Scourge. Rise of the Lich King, The Dwarf Campaign, Shores of Westfall... It was grim and dark.

WoW kinda ruined the Scourge's overall competence and threat level, in my opinion.

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That said, in Warcraft 3 I don't think Lordaeron is ever referred to as a continent. Blizzard's been pretty bad about this but until World of Warcraft I don't think that they ever referred to the subcontinent as "Lordaeron."
Man, I don't think that's really though. The very fact that Lordaeron was in the center of WC3 storyline, "the centre of the world" kinda made everything around it seem destroyed and ruined, with no need to say "aslo, the long-forgotten kingdoms of x, y and z has fallen too"! Lordaeron is destroyed. That nails it.

Though I'll agree with you that Lordaeronian (and, in my vision of Warcraft, Dalaranian) humans are the majority among Theramore's human population.
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  #127  
Old 06-23-2012, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Nobody had any way of knowing what the status of Quel'thalas and Dalaran was because Jaina and company had already left at that point. Plus, Lordaeron the continent DIDN'T fall to the Legion. Gilneas wasn't crippled until WotLK and Stromgarde wasn't crippled by the Scourge. Kul'Tiras wasn't crippled either.

That said, in Warcraft 3 I don't think Lordaeron is ever referred to as a continent. Blizzard's been pretty bad about this but until World of Warcraft I don't think that they ever referred to the subcontinent as "Lordaeron."
The mission "Destruction of Stratholme" in WCII refers to the "Western Kingdoms of Lordaeron", meaning they considered the place a continent with multiple kingdoms as of its first appearance in the fiction.
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  #128  
Old 06-23-2012, 11:26 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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In fact, the WC3 map has the whole northern continent labeled as Lordaeron.
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  #129  
Old 06-23-2012, 11:34 AM
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The mission "Destruction of Stratholme" in WCII refers to the "Western Kingdoms of Lordaeron", meaning they considered the place a continent with multiple kingdoms as of its first appearance in the fiction.
Well, I guess that answers that.

Still, I maintain that any presence from Stromgarde, Kul'Tiras, or Gilneas would be minimal as those places never really fell.
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  #130  
Old 06-23-2012, 11:39 AM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

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That's what we were talking about - in WoW. As far as WC3 was concerned, everything went to shit and the Alliance was living its last days.

I even remember whenever someone was doing a fan "continuation" after WC3 it was always centered around the remaining people defending against the Scourge. Rise of the Lich King, The Dwarf Campaign, Shores of Westfall... It was grim and dark.

WoW kinda ruined the Scourge's overall competence and threat level, in my opinion.


Man, I don't think that's really though. The very fact that Lordaeron was in the center of WC3 storyline, "the centre of the world" kinda made everything around it seem destroyed and ruined, with no need to say "aslo, the long-forgotten kingdoms of x, y and z has fallen too"! Lordaeron is destroyed. That nails it.

Though I'll agree with you that Lordaeronian (and, in my vision of Warcraft, Dalaranian) humans are the majority among Theramore's human population.
Do you have a link to this grimdark continuation?
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  #131  
Old 06-23-2012, 11:59 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Well, I guess that answers that.

Still, I maintain that any presence from Stromgarde, Kul'Tiras, or Gilneas would be minimal as those places never really fell.
Well, yes. Maybe Kul Tiras was substantional, but we pretty much now that Gilneas Brigade was made exclusively from Crowley's subjects, and there were still some left to rebel at Northgate!

Though I remeber one interesting speculation that Jaina left Stromgarde vulnerable by her expedition, leaving it for the ogres to take over.

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Do you have a link to this grimdark continuation?
Well, not Grimtale grimdark, but the undead are treated seriously.

Dwarf Campaign - last defenders of Khaz Modan, great dwarven mountain fortresses. Also, some of the first Old God theories.

Rise of the Lich King - Arthas/Ner'zhul slaughters Illidan, the Forsaken, the dwarves, a good chunk of orcs, Theramore as the last bastion for the living. Defeated by the least predictable of all variables in the long run.
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  #132  
Old 06-23-2012, 12:48 PM
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Well, not Grimtale grimdark, but the undead are treated seriously.

Dwarf Campaign - last defenders of Khaz Modan, great dwarven mountain fortresses. Also, some of the first Old God theories.

Rise of the Lich King - Arthas/Ner'zhul slaughters Illidan, the Forsaken, the dwarves, a good chunk of orcs, Theramore as the last bastion for the living. Defeated by the least predictable of all variables in the long run.
I'm still pretty sore they didn't finish the dwarf campaign properly.
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  #133  
Old 06-23-2012, 01:04 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I'm still pretty sore they didn't finish the dwarf campaign properly.
Well, you kicked Legion's ass, but also discovered that Old Gods are not toys for everyone's use. It's good for what it is, at least.
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  #134  
Old 06-23-2012, 02:06 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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You know, it would've been fun if lore told us that the Second War had smashed and razed Stromgarde, Aerie Peak, and Dalaran, and maybe Tyr's Hand... not just outer Quel'thalas (and maybe Alterac, maybe not?). It would've made that conflict feel more significant, and it wouldn't have really screwed up the stories in Warcraft III or WoW. If anything, it would've explained Stromgarde's diminished military presence in the universe after the Second War. And the Eye of Dalaran still exists in lore, still created to repair damage that the city did take... if anything, saying that the Violet Citadel had to be completely rebuilt only adds to its reputation of being too tough to destroy for long.

Of all the potential cities that the Horde could have destroyed in Warcraft II, only Lordaeron City and Stratholme are the ones that really needed to have survived (since the Culling of Stratholme was so significant in Arthas's story--it makes things more epic when the population is humongous and previously untouched!).

This is where the Tides of Darkness novel failed me the most. We followed Doomhammer's Blackrock army through its entire campaign, and the only thing they decimated was outer Quel'thalas. Not even Caer Darrow got trashed, since the Runestone thing was shifted a bit. Tsk, tsk. Tichondrias had full rights to make fun of Mannoroth.

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
The mission "Destruction of Stratholme" in WCII refers to the "Western Kingdoms of Lordaeron", meaning they considered the place a continent with multiple kingdoms as of its first appearance in the fiction.
I like having Omacron around the Blizzard headquarters.
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  #135  
Old 06-23-2012, 02:17 PM
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I like having Omacron around the Blizzard headquarters.
Dude half of my job is finding citations. It makes it easier on the historians.
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  #136  
Old 06-23-2012, 02:24 PM
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Dude half of my job is finding citations. It makes it easier on the historians.
I'm not drooling... that would be crazy.
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  #137  
Old 06-23-2012, 02:29 PM
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I'm not drooling... that would be crazy.
Pretty much everything that comes outta CDev goes through a "lore grilling" where the historians, or loremasters, make sure it doesn't break the setting. I tend to throw quotes or links to quests in the comments of my work to make things easier on them.
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  #138  
Old 06-23-2012, 02:44 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Of all the potential cities that the Horde could have destroyed in Warcraft II, only Lordaeron City and Stratholme are the ones that really needed to have survived (since the Culling of Stratholme was so significant in Arthas's story--it makes things more epic when the population is humongous and previously untouched!).

This is where the Tides of Darkness novel failed me the most. We followed Doomhammer's Blackrock army through its entire campaign, and the only thing they decimated was outer Quel'thalas. Not even Caer Darrow got trashed, since the Runestone thing was shifted a bit. Tsk, tsk. Tichondrias had full rights to make fun of Mannoroth.
Sadly true. They went incredubly laizy with the novelization. Detailing the whole conflict is at was in WC2 would result in a much more epic war novel. And it would actually bring more sense for hatred toward the orcs. Now the Horde went through and lost really quick, with only Stormwind being completely destroyed. Now, if there was need to rebuild Dalaran, AND Kul Tiras, AND Stromgarde there would be much more merit to the kings being angry at Terenas for theit economic problems and leaving the Alliance.
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  #139  
Old 06-23-2012, 03:02 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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AND Kul Tiras
Well, with Kul Tiras, it seems to be more of a prominent military force in the post-war times, especially with Frozen Throne.

Stromgarde doesn't have much mentioning, just a force that went with Jaina to Kalimdor. Having Stromgarde trashed during the Second War would explain why this hearty, martial nation didn't put up much fight against the Scourge.

Of course, I think that would vomit over several different novels, not just ToD...
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