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  #3876  
Old 06-09-2012, 06:55 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Bryn View Post
LOL, yes, I tried. But paladins train priests all the time, I guess! Then someone else mentioned a dwarf who was also trained by Uther, and he said it must be a special exception...
You could also ask him why the leader of an Order that, apparently, discriminates against non-humans bothered to train a high elf as a priest (that guy isn't even a priest...). If the Order doesn't allow the membership of non-humans Uther must have played a vital part in the decision...
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  #3877  
Old 06-09-2012, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
You could also ask him why the leader of an Order that, apparently, discriminates against non-humans bothered to train a high elf as a priest (that guy isn't even a priest...). If the Order doesn't allow the membership of non-humans Uther must have played a vital part in the decision...
I have a feeling he might just say that only paladins were considered human-exclusive. That becoming a paladin is more strictly regulated than becoming a priest or something.

I thought I should check with people who’d actually read the Ashbringer comic, since that was what he claimed as his source.
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  #3878  
Old 06-09-2012, 07:16 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Bryn View Post
I have a feeling he might just say that only paladins were considered human-exclusive. That becoming a paladin is more strictly regulated than becoming a priest or something.

I thought I should check with people who’d actually read the Ashbringer comic, since that was what he claimed as his source.
I would scan the racism parts for you, but my copy is in German. His statements are bogus anyways. (At least as long as he states them as if they were facts)
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  #3879  
Old 06-09-2012, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
I would scan the racism parts for you, but my copy is in German. His statements are bogus anyways. (At least as long as he states them as if they were facts)
Hm, I think I'll try the "sources, please" strategy. (On him.)
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  #3880  
Old 06-09-2012, 08:15 AM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Originally Posted by Bryn View Post
OK, could someone tell me whether the Ashbringer comic in fact shows that elves were never paladins before BC because the Order of the Silver Hand was racist?
There is a scene in issue two where Tyrosus is arguing with the other leaders. Since they have insufficient numbers to affectively fight the Scourge, Tyrorsus argues that they need to “recruit outside our own race, outside our own faction if need be!” Abbendis gets all pissed off and says “The purity of the order will never be fouled by the unclean!” This caused the group to splinter into the Scarlet Crusade and Argent Dawn.

So, take from that what you will. It could be read to imply that there were no non-humans recruited. However, since we know that some non-humans were, they may have been exceptions to the general rule. Or there of course could have been paladins that simply weren’t part of the Silver Hand.

Overall, Blizzard is very inconsistent with this particular topic, as we even see non-human Scarlet Crusaders honored with statues in the Scarlet Monastery, which logically shouldn’t be given later explanations.
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  #3881  
Old 06-09-2012, 08:32 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I just reread the comic and this is what Mograine says during the journey to Ironforge (I translated it so it might not be 100% accurate):
"I noticed a steadily growing grouping within our order, Fairbanks... lead by Abbendis himself. This grouping has reservations against the races they consider inferior. It is not proper for a Paladin to treat others unfairly because of their origin."

This happens before the split Gurtogg described.
The members who oppose recruiting other races are Taelan (probably due to what happened after his father saved Eitrigg), Abbendis, Brigitte and Renault while Alexandros, Darion, Tyrosius and Fairbanks don't have such qualms. We don't know what Dathrohan thinks of this because he's already possessed, but we know that Uther, Tirion and Turalyon aren't racists either. I'd say that the Order, as a whole, isn't discriminatory since the majority of it's founding members aren't either.
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Last edited by Nazja; 06-09-2012 at 08:43 AM..
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  #3882  
Old 06-09-2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
The members who oppose recruiting other races are Taelan (probably due to what happened after his father saved Eitrigg), Abbendis, Brigitte and Renault while Alexandros, Darion, Tyrosius and Fairbanks don't have such qualms. We don't know what Dathrohan thinks of this because he's already possessed, but we know that Uther, Tirion and Turalyon aren't racists either. I'd say that the Order, as a whole, isn't discriminatory since the majority of it's founding members aren't either.
Yeah...about that... I guess we can say that Turalyon was not racist against non-Horde races.

Also, I am not sure if Taelen really opposed recruiting other races. My general impression is that he was a good person who was pressured to stay on the wrong side of the fence.
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  #3883  
Old 06-09-2012, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurtogg_Bloodboil View Post
So, take from that what you will. It could be read to imply that there were no non-humans recruited. However, since we know that some non-humans were, they may have been exceptions to the general rule. Or there of course could have been paladins that simply weren’t part of the Silver Hand.
I think the statement refers to the Silver Hand that far north having lost their non-human soldiers through attrition, and not quite finding many others considering that Lordaeron was a primarily human kingdom.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #3884  
Old 06-09-2012, 03:16 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Yeah...about that... I guess we can say that Turalyon was not racist against non-Horde races.

Also, I am not sure if Taelan really opposed recruiting other races. My general impression is that he was a good person who was pressured to stay on the wrong side of the fence.
I agree. To be honest , I wouldn't even call most of the other Scarlet Crusade leaders racists (at least not initially). Unlike in the Alliance we have in WOW, the races that comprised the Alliance during the second war didn't really have time to bond. After the elves seceded old distrust was bound to rise again. I wouldn't trust a mysterious race that doesn't contribute anything to the war effort, besides a token force, until it's own lands are under attack, is one of the first to withdraw from the Alliance and even has the gall to make my own race responsible for it's misfortunes either.
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  #3885  
Old 06-09-2012, 03:27 PM
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One possibility I've thought about for their distrust for even Alliance races is probably due to the plague mostly affecting only humans. All the humans could stick together, because if one caught the plague, then it'd likely spread to the others, whereas elves and dwarves wouldn't need to worry as much about it.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
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2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #3886  
Old 06-09-2012, 09:32 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Do we know what kind of demon Zmodlor from Cycle of Hatred was? I've skimmed through the book two or three times and can't find anything beyond just "he was a demon".
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  #3887  
Old 06-09-2012, 09:42 PM
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Do we know what kind of demon Zmodlor from Cycle of Hatred was? I've skimmed through the book two or three times and can't find anything beyond just "he was a demon".
The modus operandi points to a Dreadlord. But it could be anything, I guess.
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  #3888  
Old 06-10-2012, 04:41 PM
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Do we know what kind of demon Zmodlor from Cycle of Hatred was? I've skimmed through the book two or three times and can't find anything beyond just "he was a demon".
Probably somehow unique like Hakkar.
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  #3889  
Old 06-10-2012, 11:18 PM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
Probably somehow unique like Hakkar.
They said Zmodlor was patheticly weak by himself, may be he was an imp?
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  #3890  
Old 06-12-2012, 05:45 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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So, the Emissary is a high elf. He (or a guy with a same model) later appears in Arthas's first Quel'Thalas mission, in the first chapter of the Founding of Durotar, in Kael's second mission, and later during the Crossing. The last one made me wonder - did the high elves actually serve Garithos against the blood elves?
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  #3891  
Old 06-12-2012, 06:18 AM
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The emissary model is based on the elven priest but is clearly a human though, and given how in most of his appearances it makes more sense if hes a human I would argue no.
They simply used his model when they should have used a normal high elf priest during that Quel'thalas mission in Reign of chaos.


Remembered they replay the emissary scene in Northrend in Alliance Dragonblight, hes an elf there, that throws a spanner into my "hes probably a human" theory.

Last edited by Grunn; 06-12-2012 at 06:20 AM..
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  #3892  
Old 06-12-2012, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
So, the Emissary is a high elf. He (or a guy with a same model) later appears in Arthas's first Quel'Thalas mission, in the first chapter of the Founding of Durotar, in Kael's second mission, and later during the Crossing. The last one made me wonder - did the high elves actually serve Garithos against the blood elves?
Besides the one whom Terenas sends to Northrend after Arthas, I don't think those were even high elf models, those were the same models that 'Apprentice Wizard' mobs had and those were pretty human looking.
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  #3893  
Old 06-12-2012, 07:31 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Grunn View Post
The emissary model is based on the elven priest but is clearly a human though, and given how in most of his appearances it makes more sense if hes a human I would argue no.
They simply used his model when they should have used a normal high elf priest during that Quel'thalas mission in Reign of chaos.


Remembered they replay the emissary scene in Northrend in Alliance Dragonblight, hes an elf there, that throws a spanner into my "hes probably a human" theory.
That's the thing. The model was called HumanMage, but "Human" basically meant "Alliance" in WC3, so I was not surprised that they made him an elf in WotlK - I mean, those ears look hardly human.

It just bugs me that the model was used only by elf guys in RoC, and then the trend continued for TFT emissaries. Were they elves too?
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  #3894  
Old 06-12-2012, 08:13 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
That's the thing. The model was called HumanMage, but "Human" basically meant "Alliance" in WC3, so I was not surprised that they made him an elf in WotlK - I mean, those ears look hardly human.

It just bugs me that the model was used only by elf guys in RoC, and then the trend continued for TFT emissaries. Were they elves too?
Consider that in this same game, Gul'dan's flashback lackeys used the shaman model.

At some point, methinks we may have to use our imaginations on visual representation.
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  #3895  
Old 06-12-2012, 08:22 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
So, the Emissary is a high elf. He (or a guy with a same model) later appears in Arthas's first Quel'Thalas mission, in the first chapter of the Founding of Durotar, in Kael's second mission, and later during the Crossing. The last one made me wonder - did the high elves actually serve Garithos against the blood elves?
Isn't the emissary a human? They cut of his ears in the portrait to make him look human.

My question:
How likely is it that trolls are related to raptors/Gonk?
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  #3896  
Old 06-12-2012, 08:32 AM
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How likely is it that trolls are related to raptors/Gonk?
Biologically?

I'd say the odds are pretty slim, considering they seem to belong to wholly different taxons, and most Ancient-descendant pairs we've seen are fairly close to one another.
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  #3897  
Old 06-12-2012, 09:08 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Biologically?

I'd say the odds are pretty slim, considering they seem to belong to wholly different taxons, and most Ancient-descendant pairs we've seen are fairly close to one another.
Hmm, they somewhat resemble avian/dinosaurian humanoids, at least to me, seem to prefer raptors over other pets/mounts and Gonk made druidism available to the Darkspears (to save the wildlife, but couldn't he have had other reasons?).
Sure, I might be grasping at straws, and the fact that they seem to be mammals goes against my hypothesis, but, considering that most races are either titan made, linked to ancients, descendants of the two former groups or made by the Mogu, trolls having evolved independently is starting to seem unlikely.
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Last edited by Nazja; 06-12-2012 at 09:41 AM..
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  #3898  
Old 06-12-2012, 09:46 AM
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Hmm, they somewhat resemble avian/dinosaurian humanoids, at least to me, seem to prefer raptors over other pets/mounts and Gonk made druidism available to the Darkspears (to save the wildlife, but couldn't he have had other reasons?).
Sure, I might be grasping at straws and the fact that they seem to be mammals goes against my theory, but, considering that most races are either titan made, linked to ancients, descendants of the two former groups or made by the Mogu, trolls having evolved independently is starting to seem unlikely.
Well, on Azeroth, Goblins and Trolls seem like the odd ones out in terms of origin, but we've plenty example of non-titanic planets developing various sentient species. Draenor for example had the Ogres (and subsequently, Orcs), Arrakoa, Sporelings and Fungus giants. Not to mention all the planets and civilizations the Draenei encountered on their hitchhiking journey throughout the universe likely had unique origins of their own.

There's certainly no lack of origins for intelligent life in the Warcraft universe.
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  #3899  
Old 06-12-2012, 09:49 AM
Jungleluke Jungleluke is offline

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Well, on Azeroth, Goblins and Trolls seem like the odd ones out in terms of origin, but we've plenty example of non-titanic planets developing various sentient species. Draenor for example had the Ogres (and subsequently, Orcs), Arrakoa, Sporelings and Fungus giants. Not to mention all the planets and civilizations the Draenei encountered on their hitchhiking journey throughout the universe likely had unique origins of their own.

There's certainly no lack of origins for intelligent life in the Warcraft universe.
And don't forget the Aqir and the Mantid (if they aren't the same ofcourse)

But it was officialy stated somewhere that there was evidence that Trolls existed before the coming of the Titans. And the Ancients/Loa began to appear after the Titans organized Azeroth.
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  #3900  
Old 06-12-2012, 09:52 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Isn't the emissary a human? They cut of his ears in the portrait to make him look human.
Nope. And the ears are long enough to be either, really.

This set me in the mood to play the Enhanced Campaigns. Gotta go!
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