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Old 07-29-2009, 09:45 PM
planerunner planerunner is offline

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Default Worgen Racial Traits

I thought it might be interesting to take a semi-serious look at possible Worgen racial traits based on existing lore (there was more that it seemed at first glance)

References such as the Book of Ur, Velinde's Journal, and Jitter's Complete Journal.

The Book of Ur

This book gives us some insightful clues albeit from a biased viewpoint. It is much like looking through a cracked window at our target. There is a key paragraph that points us to racial abilities:

"As mentioned above, some Worgen are skilled in the mystic arts, and their magic is of darkness and corruption. Curses and supernatural poisons are common, so be forewarned--those who face the worgen should arm themselves with wards against shadow."

Worgen have powerful arcane magic users, who specialize in curses and supernatural poisons - warlocks. The Alliance already has Arcane, Frost, Nature, and Shadow resistance racials. That would leave Fire and Holy resistance. With nearly all Holy users on the Alliance, that wouldn't make much sense. Frost was used in Northrend, Fire in the South Seas would seem possible. Fire might be an alternative.

It might also be possible to have a curse or a poison bite as an ability here, as well. A curse could be anything, if not very dark. A poison bite that does nature or shadow damage is feasible, but not likely very helpful.

Velinde's Journal

Velinde summoned the worgen to Azeroth with the Scythe of Elune. We find out that worgen can organize, have pack leaders, etc. They have an impressive ability to coordinate and attack as a group.

"All goes well. I have summoned larger numbers of the worgen to fight at my side. Though they are of simple mind, they have shown impressive ability to coordinate their attacks and function as a group.

I have identified leaders in their packs. To them I have given command of small groups of warriors. We strike from many places in the forest at once, and my campaign against the demons is a fruitful one."


They also have warriors, though this might be a general reference (fighter, soldier) and not the class. Although this isn't as direct as the Book of Ur, it does provide some more ineresting racial possibilities. A group buff, much like the Draenei's Heroic Presence, is possible. A group buff of any type would be welcome, and likely very popular.

One other passage from Velinde's Journal merits review here:

"Holding the Scythe in my hands, I received a vision of chaos. Wolf-men... the worgen... battled an incredible enemy. The worgen fought savagely, as fit their primitive race, but their enemy was unflinching: the Lords of the Emerald Flame."


A Demon Slaying trait is also possibility. Worgen are mentioned here fighting the Lords of the Emerald Flame, which is presumed to be a faction of the Burning Legion.

Jitter's Complete Journal

Jitter tells more of a story of events caused by worgen than the beasts themselves. However, his account of their attack in Roland's Doom solidifies the worgen's reputation for ambush. At first glance, Jitter's account implies a dimensional rift of some sort bringing the worgen to Roland's Doom. The worgen attack seemingly like rogues:

"They came at us from everywhere, clawing from hidden holes at our feet and dropping upon us from silent perches above. Half our men fell in those first panicked minutes."

We already have indications of poisons and warlocks from the Book of Ur. Worgen also seem to use magic to aid their attacks here, not just simple use of the shadows. Boosting their abilities through supernatural (i.e. arcane) means is implied.

This might indicate a bonus passive racial for reducing threat or detection. This could also be a direct shadowmeld type skill, or even a bonus to first attack.

Possible Racials

This leads us to our tally of possible racials, based on lore:
  • -Fire Resistance: Reduces the chance you will be hit by Fire spells by 2%.
  • -Demon Slaying: 5% damage bonus when fighting against Demons.
  • -Curse of the [insert title]: (Possible Fear, Damage Over Time, Debuff)
  • -Presence/Aura: Increases [stat] by 1% for you and all party members within 30 yards.
  • -Shadowmeld: Slip into the shadows, reducing the chance for enemies to detect your presence.

This is based off of lore and the assumption that worgen will go Alliance. So what racials do you think Blizzard might come up with?

Open speculation time!

Taken from the worgen blog: http://worgen.wordpress.com/

Last edited by planerunner; 07-29-2009 at 09:50 PM.. Reason: Added weblinks
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  #2  
Old 07-29-2009, 11:46 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Good research plane, though I think you went a little overboard on how impressive the stats were. Two percent fire resist is quite a bit, but then again I haven't crunched the numbers on what constitutes normal resistance at max level these days so don't quote me on that.

The curse idea is also wonderful one, especially since the stated Worgen's traits seem to be developing as a foil for the Draenei's.

The only qualms I have about your choices are in Shadowmeld, simply because we already have that for Night Elves (though there is precedent with Humans and Gnomes sharing the same one now.) To replace it I couldn't say, but I do believe you're on the right track with an ambush like ability.
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Old 07-30-2009, 12:07 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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I don't see quite WHY they should get a fire racial, lorewise. I don't think "fire" when I think "werewolf". I also don't think they should get shadowmeld, which night elves already have. Remove the fire defense buff and instead give them a +5 to leatherworking, since it's the profession most like hunting and killing your prey. Rather than shadowmeld, give them a charge-like attack, "bestial lunge" or something.
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Old 07-30-2009, 12:47 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
Good research plane, though I think you went a little overboard on how impressive the stats were. Two percent fire resist is quite a bit, but then again I haven't crunched the numbers on what constitutes normal resistance at max level these days so don't quote me on that.
If I recall correctly, these days racial "resists" don't operate the same as true resistances. Whereas +arcane resist gear outright reduces damage caused by arcane spells and grants a greater chance to fully resist them, a racial-based arcane resistance actually operate as a function of hit rating calculation, slightly increasing the odds of hostile arcane spells missing the player rather than reducing the damage caused when they do land.

Admittedly a missed spell might as well be a fully resisted one after the fact, as no damage is suffered by either, but at the same time it means accounting for different stats when attempting to build on the racial resistances with gear, as they operate independently of the true resistance functions that we've had since before people were piling on their Dark Iron gear for running Molten Core and Blackwing Lair.

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I don't see quite WHY they should get a fire racial, lorewise. I don't think "fire" when I think "werewolf".
Plus, one of the premises of the Grizzly Hills quest in which players escape the Worgen on horseback is that fire is a particularly effective means of killing them (of course, one wouldn't expect that to manifest in player-cast spells for balance reasons, so that mages, shamans and warlocks can't nuke Worgen faster than anyone else with just one school of their magic. Same as why Blizz doesn't go crazy with paladin damage against the Legion and the Scourge besides Exorcism, despite the fact that lorewise the Light would scorch undead and demons worse than anything else regardless of the specific spell). Hence the use of thrown skins full of flaming oil to kill the pursuing Worgen that spawn during the escape. The NPC even says that the Worgen hate fire right before the quest starts when he tells the player to use the burning oilskins to fend them off.

It's probably all that fur; hair does burn like crazy, after all.

Last edited by ARM3481; 07-30-2009 at 12:59 AM..
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Old 07-30-2009, 01:04 AM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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And by god does burnt hair smell terrible, especially if it's your own and you can't escape it.
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:13 AM
Yuber8900 Yuber8900 is offline

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And by god does burnt hair smell terrible, especially if it's your own and you can't escape it.
Stop headbutting fire Cantus.
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Old 07-30-2009, 05:03 AM
Nene Nene is offline

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And by god does burnt hair smell terrible, especially if it's your own and you can't escape it.
I learned my lesson on this front when I went to go barbecue cheeseburgers with my hair down and ended up singing like two inches off the bottom. It was awful.

I was going to crack a few jokes about how their racials should have to do with mutilating little old ladies and having perfect hair while drinking cocktails, but then I serious'd.

Maybe...if we're going by the 'Werewolves of Gilneas' theory, a resistance to Disarm effects following the lines of 'If they disarm you, bite them instead'? Resistance to/a bonus to nature damage, as they are shapeshifting alien wolf-dogs with a poss. connection to Elune? Bonus damage with fist weapons?
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:15 AM
RobLore RobLore is offline

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Blizzard has changed "opinion" about racials. You can see this with the BC races. Previously, some racials (Expansive Mind, Weapon Specs etc) didnt favor all classes. But the racials of the Blood Elves and the Draenei benefit all. I like your racials and based from them and my own, I came up with something like this;

Deadly Prowler: Increases Skinning and Leatherworking skill by 10.
This skill is countered by Goblins, who have a bonus to Logging and Carpentry (or Alchemy if the previous ones doesnt come). Fire Resistance fitted more to Goblins, in my opinion.

Curse of the Greymane: Instantly deals Shadow damage and reduces attack and casting speed by 10% for 8 seconds. Deals more damage the lower health the enemy target is. 30 second cooldown."
Curse of the Greymane offers a small dps boost but is an excellent finisher. It also helps for PvP.

Strength of the Pack: Following a critical strike, you and your party members within 30 yards gets a 2% increase to your highest stat. Doesnt stack.
The racial follows the trend of Stat increasing effects.

Moon Sprinter: Increases movement speed by 10% while out of combat and by 5% in combat. Does not stack with other movement increasing effects such as Pursuit of Justice and Ghost Wolf.
Worgen have been shown to run really fast. But it should not stack with other movement increasing effects to not become overpowered.

I considered doing a Beastial Frenzy racial, but with all these other racials a 2% damage increase already seemed overpowered to the racials of other races. I felt like it would cause some imbalance.

Last edited by RobLore; 07-30-2009 at 02:40 PM..
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:18 AM
Drz Drz is offline

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Originally Posted by RobLore View Post
B
Curse of the Greymane: Curses the target, causing them to tremble in fear or horror and take Shadow over a short amount of time.
Aswell as being a small dps boost, CotG is effective in PvP. If you are a Melee class, CotG causes a Horror effect and if you are a ranger class it causes a Fear effect.



Runner under the Moon: Increases movement speed by 10%. Does not stack with other movement increasing effects. Affects mounts.
The 1st one is ridicilously powerful regarding PvP that you either need to make it unavaible for PvP or completely change it

PS. 10% movement increase will never happen as a serious racial simply because of PvP. The racial is just too powerful aswell. Oh and please don't bother with the "make better ones yourself!!!!!!!!!!" argument.
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Old 07-30-2009, 09:00 AM
Wabbajack Wabbajack is offline

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Experienced Predator: Worgen get a bonus of 10 to their skinning skill.

Strength of the Pack: The Worgen and his party members get a bonus of 5(10/1X?)% to their health.

Dreadful Howl: The Worgen lets out a terrific howl that lowers the hit of enemies in a (X?) yard radius by 1(2/X?)% for 10(1X/5?) seconds. 2(1/3/X?) minutes cooldown.

Ravenous Devouring
(?): The Worgen gets a bonus of 10(5/1X?)% to all mana and health he regenerates through food and drinks.

^^
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Old 07-30-2009, 09:10 AM
RobLore RobLore is offline

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How in the world can you complain about how Curse of the Greymane is OP when you dont know its duration? -.-
Its not like the fear or horror effect lasts 20 seconds -.-
More like 3 or 4 at most.

10% movement speed is not OP. Feral druids can move at 30% at all times. So can hunters, but they get dazed if they are attacked. Shamans can with talents instantly shift into Ghost wolf for 40% speed.

edit: Okey Drz. How about this. When the Worgen is out of combat his movement speed increases by 10%. Increases mount speed too. The Worgen does however get a 5% speed increase in combat too. Does that seem more balanced?
Since PvPers already get Curse of the Greymane every 30 seconds.


------

Even a 5% health to party members is a bit overpowered. Considering that the Tauren have a 5% health racial, and its not an aura >.>
If its an aura then perhaps 3 or even 2% bonus health would be more balanced?


edit: I have done some maths myself. My lvl 80 MM Hunter (mostly Naxx 25-geared with some Ulduar stuff and 2/5 T8.5) has exactly 1142 agility unbuffed atm. 1% of 1142 is 11(,42) agility. That seems quite weak. I have buffed it too 3%. It becomes quite a lot in a 25-man and perhaps its a bit OP? I cant bother to caculate on how much +stats it becomes with 3% in a 25-man.

edit 2: 3% is fair. Lets say there are 10 players with agility as their highest stat in a 25-man (a bit unlikely but still). They have 1000 agility each. 50x10 = 300 agility. Worgen already have other powerful racials anyway.

You should not be forced to bring 5 Worgens in your raid group, even though you will likely end up having that anyway.

Last edited by RobLore; 07-30-2009 at 09:34 AM..
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Old 07-30-2009, 09:21 AM
Drz Drz is offline

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Originally Posted by Wabbajack View Post
Experienced Predator: Worgen get a bonus of 10 to their skinning skill.

Strength of the Pack: The Worgen and his party members get a bonus of 5(10/1X?)% to their health.

Dreadful Howl: The Worgen lets out a terrific howl that lowers the hit of enemies in a (X?) yard radius by 1(2/X?)% for 10(1X/5?) seconds. 2(1/3/X?) minutes cooldown.

Ravenous Devouring
(?): The Worgen gets a bonus of 10(5/1X?)% to all mana and health he regenerates through food and drinks.

^^
Great suggestions. The last one seems abit wasted, but then again when you think about Shadowmeld you realize Ravenous Devouring isn't that bad at all. =p

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How in the world can you complain about how Curse of the Greymane is OP when you dont know its duration? -.-
Its not like the fear or horror effect lasts 20 seconds -.-
More like 3 or 4 at most.
Its still an interrupt kinda like the Blood elven silence, but as you said it would be fear/horror so it would be even worse. Since when silenced you can use trinkets but when feared/horrored you need to break out of it incase of O-SHI moments. Racial durations aren't long anymore so why should Blizzard make a overpowered and long one?

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Originally Posted by RobLore View Post
10% movement speed is not OP. Feral druids can move at 30% at all times. So can hunters, but they get dazed if they are attacked. Shamans can with talents instantly shift into Ghost wolf for 40% speed.
I might change it later, but im not listening to a single opinion. Especially not yours, Drz.
Feral Druids and Shamans: Need to be in Catform/Wolf, they can't use spells or whatever. You're giving X amount of classes a passive 10% speed bonus while any other race/class would need to either 1) Enchant their boots 2) Spec for speed bonus. Making that 1 race have a huge superiority is going to make a whinefestival parade and Blizzard would eventually remove it.

Hunters atleast have a negative part if they choose to run faster, yet yours has noone.

PS. I know you love me and my opinions, thats why you just edited your post. <3
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edit: Okey Drz. How about this. When the Worgen is out of combat his movement speed increases by 10%. Increases mount speed too (even in combat). Does that seem more balanced?
Nope, it still assists them in pillar kiting and whatnot bullshit.

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Since PvPers already get Curse of the Greymane every 30 seconds.
What?
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Old 07-30-2009, 09:30 AM
RobLore RobLore is offline

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Originally Posted by RobLore
How in the world can you complain about how Curse of the Greymane is OP when you dont know its duration? -.-
Its not like the fear or horror effect lasts 20 seconds -.-
More like 3 or 4 at most.

Quote:
Its still an interrupt kinda like the Blood elven silence, but as you said it would be fear/horror so it would be even worse. Since when silenced you can use trinkets but when feared/horrored you need to break out of it incase of O-SHI moments. Racial durations aren't long anymore so why should Blizzard make a overpowered and long one?
What??? I said in my post that its "not like its 20 seconds long". I edited my racial post and now it says that it lasts 4 seconds. And its on a 30 second cooldown. Fear lasts 10 seconds and doesnt have any cooldown at all. CotG is not OP.



Quote:
Feral Druids and Shamans: Need to be in Catform/Wolf, they can't use spells or whatever. You're giving X amount of classes a passive 10% speed bonus while any other race/class would need to either 1) Enchant their boots 2) Spec for speed bonus. Making that 1 race have a huge superiority is going to make a whinefestival parade and Blizzard would eventually remove it.

Hunters atleast have a negative part if they choose to run faster, yet yours has noone.
Since when couldnt cat forms cast spells? Then I mean Rake and Mangle etc. I asume you were thinking of Travel Form, but there is a talent which increases movement speed in catform too.
And as you noticed, I edited my post and added a suggestion that it would only be 5% in combat, but 10% out of combat.

Quote:
PS. I know you love me and my opinions, thats why you just edited your post. <3
No. It was because I didnt want to fight

Quote:
Nope, it still assists them in pillar kiting and whatnot bullshit.
I wont listen to you on this one. 5% does not make a huge difference in PvP (since it doesnt stack anyway). Sometimes it feels like you just direct extra critism against me since certain stupid actions I have done on these forums previously and recently. Like how you praised Wabbajack, when his +15% health racial is very much more OP then my 10% speed increase and yet you choose to only give praise. Aswell as the other racials which were not real unique (the hit howl would need to work in PvE too).

Quote:
What?
Curse of the Greymane has a 30 second cooldown. DoT lasts 10 seconds. Fear/Horror effect 4 seconds. It says so now.

I wont click on "View Post" next time, Drz.

Last edited by RobLore; 07-30-2009 at 09:49 AM..
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Old 07-30-2009, 09:44 AM
Drz Drz is offline

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The fact you're suggesting a spell interrupt/ a intterupt in general that has a 30 second cooldown is by far the most ridicilous argument ever added with the fact you claim its not Overpowered in Arena/PvP i mean think about the extra interrupt it can provide for any class given, and you start to realize.

I mean you have long shown a big taste on anyform of PvP on this forum so what do you know about PvP anyhow? Why are you suggestings things for the aspect of the game you don't enjoy, this is the same thing you do with that class talent thread and keep ignoring what Cantus tells ya. -_-
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Old 07-30-2009, 09:51 AM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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Personally I have to agree with RobLore for once, I don't think 10% moving speed would be all the bad. It would basically free up Worgen an enchant/gem slot similar to how the human racial frees up a trinket slot, and would only be really strong in the lower tier PVP in which said enchant/gems don't exist. (Which Blizzard cares little about it seems, they already destroyed the LvL19 bracket with the travel form changes.)

Many other specs that need to catch them will be running faster anyways, Retribution Paladins run at 15% extra run speed, Rogues either with enchant or talent will run just as fast or more, Warriors will just charge you, Death Knights will just pull you back to them, Cat Feral Druids run three times as fast, etc... It's really not as bad as you are making it out to be Drz.

I do agree that the horror/fear spell is a bad idea though. No class should get a crowd control ability automatically. CC are skills Blizzard does not take lightly, and should be kept to class specific and only in moderation.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:07 AM
Wabbajack Wabbajack is offline

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Even if 10% speed bonus would not be overpowered: People would complain about it and it would be easier for blizz to just make another ability.

@Drz: I don't think that it is wasted, not that good for warriors or rogues, but it makes leveling faster for mana using classes^^
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:18 AM
Drz Drz is offline

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Many other specs that need to catch them will be running faster anyways, Retribution Paladins run at 15% extra run speed, Rogues either with enchant or talent will run just as fast or more, Warriors will just charge you, Death Knights will just pull you back to them, Cat Feral Druids run three times as fast, etc... It's really not as bad as you are making it out to be Drz.
See thats the thing Scythe. Give Worgen Paladin/Warrior/Rogue/Druid... ah hell you get the point, and the Worgen race + class is the one that doesn't need to either spec for the speed bonus or enchant it. Allowing superiour enchants or talent points to be used on. :[

PS. Not to mention how is a Worgen Warrior any faster than any other race? Are their legs on stereoids?
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:33 AM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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See thats the thing Scythe. Give Worgen Paladin/Warrior/Rogue/Druid... ah hell you get the point
No, I don't.

Quote:
Increases movement speed by 10% while out of combat and by 5% in combat. Does not stack with other movement increasing effects. Affects mounts.
You might have to clarify.

Quote:
and the Worgen race + class is the one that doesn't need to either spec for the speed bonus or enchant it. Allowing superiour enchants or talent points to be used on. :[
You mean the same way a Draenei does not have to worry about Hit gems, enchants, or talents as much as other races? Or the fact that humans get an extra trinket? You once again are thinking way to much over 5% extra speed in PVP. I would much rather have a free trinket slot then then one extra gem slot or a crappy boot enchant.

Last edited by ScytheRexx; 07-30-2009 at 10:39 AM..
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Old 07-30-2009, 12:38 PM
RobLore RobLore is offline

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I will consider to change Curse of the Greymane then. I dont want it to be Shadow Word: Pain with a different name and icon though.
What about this:

Curse of the Greymane; Curses the target, causing them to take Shadow damage over 8 seconds and reduces chance to hit with the next 3 spells or abilities by 33%. 40 second cooldown.

Is this better?

Also "Other Movement Increasing Effects" means talents like "Pursuit of Justice", "Feral Swiftness" and spells like "Aspect of the Cheetah" and "Ghost Wolf". These spells and talents overwrites the 5/10% movement increase.
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Old 07-30-2009, 12:44 PM
Wabbajack Wabbajack is offline

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That ability is even more overpowered -.-
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Old 07-30-2009, 12:52 PM
RobLore RobLore is offline

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I didnt think the 3 second fear on a 30 second cooldown was OP.
Any suggestions please?
As i said, I dont want it to be Shadow Word: Pain 2.0

btw did you know that Power Words were called Holy Words in beta? Click on Dungeons on the official site and you get screenshots from Deadmines.
In the combat log it says "Holy Word: Shield" >.>
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Old 07-30-2009, 01:49 PM
Wickedpissah Wickedpissah is offline

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Originally Posted by RobLore View Post
I didnt think the 3 second fear on a 30 second cooldown was OP.
Any suggestions please?
As i said, I dont want it to be Shadow Word: Pain 2.0

btw did you know that Power Words were called Holy Words in beta? Click on Dungeons on the official site and you get screenshots from Deadmines.
In the combat log it says "Holy Word: Shield" >.>
As Scythe mentioned, any form of crowd control not based on a class skill is dangerous. What's the racial distribution of Tauren shamans to to Trolls and Orcs? I'm willing to be it's significantly higher due to the stun that Tauren have racially. You don't want to overbalance a class to a particular race because then you end up with one side saying, "Horde shamans are better because they have a stun."

Your Curse of the Greymane performs 2 functions: a shadow DoT and hit chance reduction. As far as I know, that'd be the only racial that performs 2 things in one as well as being the only racial (that I can think of) that actively deals damage in and of itself (unlike the passive ability for increasing Orcs' attack power).

I think activated racials are dumb, personally. They should be passive traits that reflect the particular "flavor" of that specific race, IMO.
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Old 07-30-2009, 01:59 PM
RobLore RobLore is offline

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Well, if you havnt noticed - ALL races have exactly one active racial and 2-5 passive ones. I thought of another idea now.
What about...

"Curse of the Greymane: Instantly deals Shadow damage and reduces attack and casting speed by 20% for 6 seconds. 45 second cooldown."

I think a strong instant would be better then a DoT. While leveling a Priest, Shadow Word: Death is an excellent finisher on runners.

And after that you add XXX effect. So far, all effects i suggest seems to be OP. Even a 3 second Fear/Horror. Please suggest some secondary effect that is effective for PvP and not OP then >.>

Also Arcane Torrent also has two effects. It restores a good amount of mana and does an AoE silence.

edit: Would a 5% stat reducation for 8 seconds be OP?

Last edited by RobLore; 07-30-2009 at 02:02 PM..
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  #24  
Old 07-30-2009, 02:11 PM
Drz Drz is offline

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I think the best thing you should do is stop making it a curse againts players but more like a buff to the player itself, not to mention i don't see how this whole curse of Greymane at all. =p
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:12 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLore View Post
Well, if you havnt noticed - ALL races have exactly one active racial and 2-5 passive ones. I thought of another idea now.
What about...

"Curse of the Greymane: Instantly deals Shadow damage and reduces attack and casting speed by 20% for 6 seconds. 45 second cooldown."

I think a strong instant would be better then a DoT. While leveling a Priest, Shadow Word: Death is an excellent finisher on runners.

And after that you add XXX effect. So far, all effects i suggest seems to be OP. Even a 3 second Fear/Horror. Please suggest some secondary effect that is effective for PvP and not OP then >.>

Also Arcane Torrent also has two effects. It restores a good amount of mana and does an AoE silence.

edit: Would a 5% stat reducation for 8 seconds be OP?
The reason all your abilities are overpowered is because you're putting actual numbers to them. Don't say 5%, say X%, that way a reasonable number can come out of research instead of your arbitrary opinion on the situation.

The new CoG is actually decent, except you said 20%, which is absolutely huge. Instead say, X% and we could actually agree on that interpretation.
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