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Old 01-04-2010, 11:01 AM
Peger Peger is offline

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Default The Orc's hatred for Humans & Draeni

Is it just me or does it seem a bit undeserving/misplaced? A bit like the Germans hating the Jews for the holocaust, really. I understand that the internment camps are resented, but that seems lenient if anything considering the circumstances.
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:08 AM
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Imagen yourself having lived your live in a camp where your mother, sister and other relatives get beaten up and raped. Your build to destroy and kill. Your weaker friends get killed off in the gladiator rings and you're just trained to be a puppet for what you believe is the Alliance.

Then you finally get your land of your own. Your leader gets you a nice city Orgrimmar and whatnot. Hekc you even help the Alliance and what happens? Kul Tiras attacks and whatnot.

Thats how the younger generation feels. Thrall got his revenge when he killed Blackmoore but theres still plenty of Orcs who feel their life needs to be justified by destroying the enemy faction.

The Draenei hate tho? Eh it's more like the Draenei hate the Orcs for what happened to them really.
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:25 AM
Joshmaul Joshmaul is offline

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Under the old demonic Horde, the orcs' hatred for draenei could be explained simply as "they're the enemy, let's kill them". Under Thrall, however, I would say that the mood isn't so much hatred (though Garrosh probably thinks otherwise, but then again, Garrosh is a lunatic) as accepting that it's incredibly unlikely that the draenei as a whole would be willing to speak to orcs, since the draenei - being a fairly long-lived species - would not so easily forget that the orcs nearly wiped out their species and desecrated their holy places, like the Temple of Karabor or Auchindoun. The fact that the clans were, at the time, puppets of Kil'jaeden doesn't mean much - Kil'jaeden wasn't the one holding the axes that cut up draenei children.

Individual draenei might be inclined to forgive these crimes - Velen among them, in my opinion - but the draenei as a species would probably not.
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:32 AM
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Imagen yourself having lived your live in a camp where your mother, sister and other relatives get beaten up and raped. Your build to destroy and kill. Your weaker friends get killed off in the gladiator rings and you're just trained to be a puppet for what you believe is the Alliance.

Then you finally get your land of your own. Your leader gets you a nice city Orgrimmar and whatnot. Hekc you even help the Alliance and what happens? Kul Tiras attacks and whatnot.

Thats how the younger generation feels. Thrall got his revenge when he killed Blackmoore but theres still plenty of Orcs who feel their life needs to be justified by destroying the enemy faction.

The Draenei hate tho? Eh it's more like the Draenei hate the Orcs for what happened to them really.
I can see why, from an individual perspective, an Orc would hate humans, and I shouldn't really expect them to have perspective. But given the Orcs were a demonic Horde from another planet which ploxed in, tried to kill everything in their path, and nearly succeeded, anything short of annihilating them seems extremely merciful.
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:38 AM
Drz Drz is offline

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I can see why, from an individual perspective, an Orc would hate humans, and I shouldn't really expect them to have perspective. But given the Orcs were a demonic Horde from another planet which ploxed in, tried to kill everything in their path, and nearly succeeded, anything short of annihilating them seems extremely merciful.
<< Implying the Orcs should care about what they actually did and not use the "we were corrupted" excuse.
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:04 PM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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When it comes to the Draenei, I have not seen any quests in which the orcs literally are screaming hatred at them specifically. The two races, though they have a pretty nasty history together, seem to take a back seat to the orc and human rivalry, with the orcs only really fighting the draenei because they joined the humans.

Actually, it seemed like the draenei and the blood elves had a much more vocal rivalry during WoW from the starting quests at Azuremyst and Bloodmyst, to the Aldor/Scryer dynamic, and even when you take over Halaa the guards are either draenei or blood elves, depending on who owns it. The biggest shown rivalry involving orcs and draenei was Mag'har versus the Broken, and even that was barely even mentioned in Nagrand, the two cities mostly ignore eachother.

When it comes to the humans and orcs, it is a cycle of hatred. Both sides hate eachother because both side does not look at what they did to the other side, only what the other side did to them. Each side, in the end, is waiting for the other to screw them in some way just to have an excuse to start the cycle again, making each new generations hatred burn brighter. It's not going to stop till both sides stop looking for excuses, and considering Thrall, one of the only sane orcs in power, is getting supplanted by the big brownie, things are not looking good.
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:13 PM
Stormcrusher Stormcrusher is offline

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I think its more of an issue of backing down.

You have both sides with races that have a never surrender mindset.

Humans and Night Elves both feel that their lands are theirs, and that anyone who tries to take them from them needs to be eliminated.

Night Elves are proud and uppity. They do view themselves as better than the other races. Though some Night Elves don't look down on other races, they still feel that their people are a superior race. When orcs come in and try to take over their lands and their forests they are gonna get mad.

Imagine your a hardworking middle class person. You've worked for years and finally have a nice house. Then a homeless guy comes in the back door of your house into the kitchen, then nailing all the doors in the house leading to the kitchen shut. Then sits in there eating all your food. When you try and get into the kitchen he starts poking you through the door with a metal clothes hanger. When you go to the other room to get something to fend him off you find out he's expanded his territory by another room, boarding it off again.

That's what the Night Elves are dealing with. The orcs to them are mangy squatters taking and destroying everything they worked hard to earn and protect.

The humans view the orcs as a disease. You have to realize the humans that fought with the orcs at Hyjal were a very very small portion. The majority of the humans only know the orcs for one thing, that meeting one will probably mean your death. Orcs came to Azeroth with the intent to kill all humans. The humans know this, they aren't stupid. Even after the orcs were in internment camps, you still had free orcs that roamed the country side attacking small villages and homes. Even in the Lord of the Clans novel, after the orcs were in the camps for nearly 20 years the Warsong clan still was out raiding villages and killing humans, when Thrall is taken to their cave they wanted him to kill a small human boy to prove his loyalty. When they went overseas to Kalimdor, it was the orcs that attacked the humans first. The humans know that if they let the orcs establish a nation and do their thing, eventually they will return to attack the humans, its in their blood.


Orcs naturally are drawn to battle. They've been doing it for hundreds of years. Many people read Rise of the Horde and Lord of the Clans and think that all orcs were just shaman loving nomadic hippes that were hunter/gatherers. That's just not true. Orcs have always been warriors.

The Frostwolves weren't like every other orc clan. They were very shamanistic oriented. They tended to keep to themselves away from the other clans. Other tribes were more war oriented, even borderline insane. Clans warred amongst themselves, sometimes completely wiping each other out, taking the women and children as slaves. The Warsong, Blackrock, and Shattered Hand clans were all known for constant fighting. The Frostwolves, Shadowmoon, and Bleeding Hollow were more known for keeping to themselves. Some clans like the Laughing Skull were even cannibals, attacking other clans and eating their victims.

The only time each year that the clans would lay down their arms and stop fighting amongst each other was during the bi-annual festivals at Ushu'gun.

The orcs were also at war against the Ogres. Garad, Durotan's father chieftain of the peaceful Frostwolf tribe, even died in battle against the ogres. The orcs were known for forming war parties and heading north to fight ogres for sport. The Doomhammer line got it name from being famous ogre killers.

And although they were known as hunters they weren't hunters like we would think of our human ancestors. Orcs prefered to hunt like they were going into battle, attacking their prey with axes and clubs rather than spears half the time, beating the crap out if it.

When you think about it, the only orc that truly wants peace is Thrall. No other orc ever mentions it. I know people would bring up Saurfang, but read what he says closely. He doesn't want his people to become senseless killers and murders again. He doesn't want to be part of genocides. He's not against war even against the humans if need be.

Overall its orc nature to need something to fight, to test their strength against. Many orcs seek to find the ultimate foe, this is something many of the Alliance can give them. The ogres of Draenor are no longer an option. The orcs don't just fight them because they are enemies, they are happy they are enemies, because it gives them a worthy foe to die in combat against. They believe in a warriors death. Even Mother Kushar, the Frostwolf clan mother and elder shaman went out and died during a hunting expedition when she knew her time had come.

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Old 01-04-2010, 12:44 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Under the old demonic Horde, the orcs' hatred for draenei could be explained simply as "they're the enemy, let's kill them". Under Thrall, however, I would say that the mood isn't so much hatred (though Garrosh probably thinks otherwise, but then again, Garrosh is a lunatic) as accepting that it's incredibly unlikely that the draenei as a whole would be willing to speak to orcs, since the draenei - being a fairly long-lived species - would not so easily forget that the orcs nearly wiped out their species and desecrated their holy places, like the Temple of Karabor or Auchindoun. The fact that the clans were, at the time, puppets of Kil'jaeden doesn't mean much - Kil'jaeden wasn't the one holding the axes that cut up draenei children.

Individual draenei might be inclined to forgive these crimes - Velen among them, in my opinion - but the draenei as a species would probably not.
Most Orcs weren't even hopped up on blood at the time, I might add. They did that allllll by themselves.

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Overall its orc nature to need something to fight, to test their strength against. Many orcs seek to find the ultimate foe, this is something many of the Alliance can give them. The ogres of Draenor are no longer an option. The orcs don't just fight them because they are enemies, they are happy they are enemies, because it gives them a worthy foe to die in combat against. They believe in a warriors death. Even Mother Kushar, the Frostwolf clan mother and elder shaman went out and died during a hunting expedition when she knew her time had come.
Reminds me of the Mandalorians as described in KotOR2 and maybe other stuff that I didn't bother with. When Revan decided to lead an army in to the Mandalorian Wars, he justified everything all the atrocities the Mandalorians had committed, in their eyes, because it was all to goad the Jedi in to fighting them. Drawing out the Jedi, who were the Republic's elite combatants, was their goals more than anything, because they sought the best to fight.
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Old 01-04-2010, 01:50 PM
Nekhar Nekhar is offline

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I'll try to explain this to the best of my opinion.

Older orcs would typically hate the Humans still. While it has been mentioned that the camps were "merciful" thats not how I think an orc would look at it. Orcs sadly have issues both with themselves, and with the Alliance. I'll try to focus on just the Alliance part.

The Alliance did something far worse to an orc than simply kill them. They robbed (or attempted) to rob them of a warriors death, a proud death. Instead they locked them up in camps, abused them, used them for entertainment, and kept them under chain.

You could argue that this was justified for what they did by attacking the humans. However, the Horde didn't exactly take slaves. To them killing of enemies is proper, keeping them as slaves is not. Orcs fought a worthy ally and defeated them, giving them a proper death. In return, they were defeated and rounded up and abused.

Trying to draw real life parallels, lets say that you have a dog. This dog has a lot of energy and likes to play and fight. This dog gets into a fight with your neighbors dog and kills it. What would happen is the dog would likely get put down by the city for being dangerous. However, instead your neighbor takes the dog from you. He keeps it in a cage too small for it and beats it constantly. He uses the dog in dog fights and bets on it as well.

So tell me, who is the good guy here? The answer is nobody. Your dog shouldn't have killed his, but on the same note he should't be beating and abusing your dog.

Same what that the Alliance are not "the good guys" anymore than they are "the bad guys" when it comes to Warcraft. Same is true of the Horde. Yes, they were corrupted. They were also tricked and controlled by the Legion. However, at the end of the day they still made the choice and have to live with that choice. Humans on the other hand took a race and instead of just killing it, turned to enslaving it for various reasons. Some saw it as merciful, some saw it as a way to get "revenge". Either way it a clash of cultures with nobody being on the good side and nobody being on the bad side.

Young orcs might have only known that as their childhood. Their first memories might be of the whip and the chain. Thats going to leave a pretty sour taste so I can 100% see them distrusting and hating the Humans.

The Draenei hate I don't see as much. If anything I think most orcs would feel shame with knowing that they were the ones who caused such pain to the race.
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Old 01-04-2010, 04:53 PM
Twofootfury Twofootfury is offline

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I'm not sure if the orcs hate the draenei. I mean most are going to see the draenei as something to kill, sure, but hate isn't so much a factor.

That said, I've always wondered why the Mag'har hate the Broken. I can understand their dislike of the bad ones, but some of them just seem to despise all Broken for no reason.
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Old 01-04-2010, 05:10 PM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Older orcs would typically hate the Humans still. While it has been mentioned that the camps were "merciful" thats not how I think an orc would look at it. Orcs sadly have issues both with themselves, and with the Alliance. I'll try to focus on just the Alliance part.
Though we haven’t been privy to an orcish opinion poll, from what we’ve seen its actually the Old Orcs that are urging temperance and peace. Saurfang and Rehgar, for example. Its actually the young bucks like Garrosh and the orc from the Wrathgate story that are burning with hatred to get violent on some humans.

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I can see why, from an individual perspective, an Orc would hate humans, and I shouldn't really expect them to have perspective. But given the Orcs were a demonic Horde from another planet which ploxed in, tried to kill everything in their path, and nearly succeeded, anything short of annihilating them seems extremely merciful.
Consider that you wouldn’t want to have been punished for the crimes of your parents. A generation of orcs grew up hopeless in the internment camps through no fault of their own, and they’re some of the ones that are the most pissed off.

The “Cycle of Hatred” is more than just a book title. Consider that from what you posted, you expect humans to hate the orcs. Well then, the orcs are naturally going to hate them right back, with more and more reasons to hate each other accruing with time and conflict.
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Old 01-04-2010, 05:17 PM
Joshmaul Joshmaul is offline

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Most Orcs weren't even hopped up on blood at the time, I might add. They did that allllll by themselves.
Precisely. This was done under the guise of "the ancestors want it, so we're gonna do it", only to find - far too late - that they'd been duped.
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:53 PM
Rowan Seven Rowan Seven is offline

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When you think about it, the only orc that truly wants peace is Thrall. No other orc ever mentions it. I know people would bring up Saurfang, but read what he says closely. He doesn't want his people to become senseless killers and murders again. He doesn't want to be part of genocides. He's not against war even against the humans if need be.
How about Drek'thar? Or Eitrig? Or Gorgonna? And according to the RPG books, many orcs liked the idea of starting over with the Alliance until Admiral Proudmoore showed up and gave them the impression that the Alliance wouldn't let go of the past. And really, from the orc perspective if helping save the world isn't enough to convince the Alliance to give them a chance why even bother trying to patch things up with the humans? What are they supposed to do next - save the universe?
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:33 PM
Twofootfury Twofootfury is offline

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How about Drek'thar? Or Eitrig? Or Gorgonna? And according to the RPG books, many orcs liked the idea of starting over with the Alliance until Admiral Proudmoore showed up and gave them the impression that the Alliance wouldn't let go of the past. And really, from the orc perspective if helping save the world isn't enough to convince the Alliance to give them a chance why even bother trying to patch things up with the humans? What are they supposed to do next - save the universe?
They could try apologizing. And not being violent aggressors.
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:48 PM
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It's understandable that this generation of Orcs hates the humans, yet the irony there is that they would've never even existed if the humans had done what almost anyone else would do under the circumstances. And while the Orcs helped defend the World Tree, it's not like that was a completely altruistic act which was done to help the Alliance and make amends for crimes the Horde had committed against them. The Orcs would be fucked if the Legion had won that day.
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Old 01-04-2010, 08:06 PM
Rowan Seven Rowan Seven is offline

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The Frostwolves weren't like every other orc clan. They were very shamanistic oriented. They tended to keep to themselves away from the other clans. Other tribes were more war oriented, even borderline insane. Clans warred amongst themselves, sometimes completely wiping each other out, taking the women and children as slaves. The Warsong, Blackrock, and Shattered Hand clans were all known for constant fighting. The Frostwolves, Shadowmoon, and Bleeding Hollow were more known for keeping to themselves. Some clans like the Laughing Skull were even cannibals, attacking other clans and eating their victims.

The only time each year that the clans would lay down their arms and stop fighting amongst each other was during the bi-annual festivals at Ushu'gun.

The orcs were also at war against the Ogres. Garad, Durotan's father chieftain of the peaceful Frostwolf tribe, even died in battle against the ogres. The orcs were known for forming war parties and heading north to fight ogres for sport. The Doomhammer line got it name from being famous ogre killers.

And although they were known as hunters they weren't hunters like we would think of our human ancestors. Orcs prefered to hunt like they were going into battle, attacking their prey with axes and clubs rather than spears half the time, beating the crap out if it.
You exaggerate. While it is true that prior to the arrival of Oshu'gun the orcs may have let their passions flare up into armed conflict and warfare at times (as evidenced by the history of Nazgrel's clan), after Oshu'gun such violent disputes largely stopped. To quote "Rise of the Horde" page 5, "The orcs did not fight among themselves, but neither were they particularly sociable. Each clan kept to itself, with its own traditions, styles and manner of dress, stories, and shaman." The orcs skirmished with and hunted the ogre and the gronn, yes, but that was mutual and done because the ogres were enemies and a threat - not because the orcs found them good sport. And when they hunted animals, it was often with shaman at their side and a respect for the sacrifice of their prey. Or, individually, as part of their adulthood rituals which were done less for sport and more to prove themselves as adults. The Frostwolves may have been more shamanistic and the Blackrock more Spartan, but neither was abnormal by orcish standards. The inter-clan warfare and cannibalism you speak of only reappeared after centuries of peace when the war against the draenei, the deceptions of Kil'jaeden and the Shadow Council, and the demonic corruption transformed their warrior traditions into vehicles of bloodshed and violence. Orc culture prior to their discovery by the Burning Legion was far different from what it was during the First and Second Wars, and the goal of the New Horde has long been to find a happy medium between the two that takes the good of each and combines it...though, sadly, Garrosh and many of his supporters seem not to have learned this lesson.
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:49 PM
Stormcrusher Stormcrusher is offline

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You exaggerate. While it is true that prior to the arrival of Oshu'gun the orcs may have let their passions flare up into armed conflict and warfare at times (as evidenced by the history of Nazgrel's clan), after Oshu'gun such violent disputes largely stopped. To quote "Rise of the Horde" page 5, "The orcs did not fight among themselves, but neither were they particularly sociable. Each clan kept to itself, with its own traditions, styles and manner of dress, stories, and shaman." The orcs skirmished with and hunted the ogre and the gronn, yes, but that was mutual and done because the ogres were enemies and a threat - not because the orcs found them good sport. And when they hunted animals, it was often with shaman at their side and a respect for the sacrifice of their prey. Or, individually, as part of their adulthood rituals which were done less for sport and more to prove themselves as adults. The Frostwolves may have been more shamanistic and the Blackrock more Spartan, but neither was abnormal by orcish standards. The inter-clan warfare and cannibalism you speak of only reappeared after centuries of peace when the war against the draenei, the deceptions of Kil'jaeden and the Shadow Council, and the demonic corruption transformed their warrior traditions into vehicles of bloodshed and violence. Orc culture prior to their discovery by the Burning Legion was far different from what it was during the First and Second Wars, and the goal of the New Horde has long been to find a happy medium between the two that takes the good of each and combines it...though, sadly, Garrosh and many of his supporters seem not to have learned this lesson.
I think you misinterpret it also. That is Frostwolves talking about the way they see things, mostly Drek'thar. That was the Frostwolf way of life. The orcish clans didn't communicate enough to know what the other was doing. Some of these clans lived a hundred miles away from each other, you really think they had any clue what they were doing.

The Frostwolves were the Black Sheep of the Horde though, they were that one clan that stood out. That's why they were exiled. Because they were too peaceful. Not to say they were the only peaceful clan though.

The crazier clans like the cannibalistic Laughing Skull lived on the outskirts of the orcish lands. Many clans might not even know where the others even lived.

It is even said early in Rise of the Horde it was believed by many that Grom Hellscream took over leadership of the Warsong by killing his father. Gul'dan even feared letting them gain too much political power because they were already a war hungry clan.

My main character in WoW right now is an Orc Shaman, love the class and the lore, but I think your looking too hard to find what it is you want the orcs to be when they just aren't.
Not that they are complete animals, but each clans' culture varied by a lot. Think Palestine and Israel, same area of land, probably even got some mixed blood, but very very different ways of life. Orcs were the same way. That's why Orgrim and Durotan's friendship was so strange to the older orcs, and even looked down upon.
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:24 AM
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Trying to draw real life parallels, lets say that you have a dog. This dog has a lot of energy and likes to play and fight. This dog gets into a fight with your neighbors dog and kills it. What would happen is the dog would likely get put down by the city for being dangerous. However, instead your neighbor takes the dog from you. He keeps it in a cage too small for it and beats it constantly. He uses the dog in dog fights and bets on it as well.
You make the dog killing another sound like an accident. It wasn't. The orcs weren't childishly playing when they came through the portal, they wanted war and the extinction of the human species and culture. The orcs are self aware beings and are responsible for their actions, even if those actions are influenced by their culture. I love that people forget that the orcs weren't JUST invaders. They are SPACE. ALIENS. GREEN MEN FROM ANOTHER PLANET.



If aliens popped out of a portal on modern day earth and started blasting up cities with lazers, the governments of the world would take them in for STUDY, which was what the internment camps were for, at least partially. The fact that the internment camps lasted that long is a sad fact of politics if nothing else, no one set out with the intent of the camps being permanant. But Azeroth recieved an explosion of population due to a good chunk of another continent migrating to a continent that was already densely populated, the humans really had nowhere else to put them as the Eastern Kingdoms (like Europe), unlike Kalimdor (or unlike America) has very few if any unpopulated areas, and those that are unpopulated are done so because they are unfit for life.
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:59 AM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Originally Posted by Gurtogg_Bloodboil View Post
Though we haven’t been privy to an orcish opinion poll, from what we’ve seen its actually the Old Orcs that are urging temperance and peace. Saurfang and Rehgar, for example. Its actually the young bucks like Garrosh and the orc from the Wrathgate story that are burning with hatred to get violent on some humans.
I think a big part of that is that older Orcs like Saurfang were in the Second War and so they know what happens when you pick a fight and lose. The younger Orcs only think about winning, not what they'll do if they fail.
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Old 01-05-2010, 01:29 AM
ctesiphon ctesiphon is offline

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I need to add that it is possible, and pretty common to really, really hate the person that did nothing to you, and that you hurt badly. It's called cognitive dissonance. The mechanism is: everybody wants to see themselves as the good guy. No matter what he does. So, if for example, i go to the war in Vietnam, and i do horrible things there - say i participate in burning a village and killing all the women and children in there. Why did i do this? Because i'm evil? No, because these Vietnamese DESERVED to die! (This was actually paraphrasing Grom Hellscream from the RoC campaign, he even used capslock, but i doubt he started hating them just then). If they hate the Draenei, here's the explanation.
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:16 AM
Atomic_Piggy Atomic_Piggy is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrusher View Post
The Frostwolves weren't like every other orc clan. They were very shamanistic oriented. They tended to keep to themselves away from the other clans. Other tribes were more war oriented, even borderline insane. Clans warred amongst themselves, sometimes completely wiping each other out, taking the women and children as slaves. The Warsong, Blackrock, and Shattered Hand clans were all known for constant fighting. The Frostwolves, Shadowmoon, and Bleeding Hollow were more known for keeping to themselves. Some clans like the Laughing Skull were even cannibals, attacking other clans and eating their victims.
The fact that some tribes were warlike and some were peaceful actually contradicts your point that the orcs are natural warriors - it means that, like humans, they are whatever their culture shapes them to be. And lets be fair, I'm sure that when humans lived in tribes it was the same - there were relatively peaceful tribes, and there were monsters.
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