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-   -   Effective Horde Leaders (http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/showthread.php?t=215725)

Noitora 03-11-2014 12:52 PM

Effective Horde Leaders
 
Because Horde bias. Most vs. least effective Horde leaders.

GenyaArikado 03-11-2014 12:59 PM

Sylvanas.

BaronGrackle 03-11-2014 04:06 PM

Thrall. The guy's naive as a brick about his own people's history, but he brings victories when he's around.

Also Blackhand. The only orcish who successfully coordinated a Horde victory against a human kingdom.

Millenia 03-11-2014 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaronGrackle (Post 1079257)
Thrall. The guy's naive as a brick about his own people's history, but he brings victories when he's around.

He also has so much charisma he managed to break off chunks of the Alliance, and his charisma even affects the perception of any organization he touches such that other people won't want to mess with it even despite the clear and present danger it poses to those people.

Fojar 03-11-2014 04:59 PM

Which chunks of the Alliance did he break off? I suppose there's the Argent Crusade but that was Eitrigg combined with Tirion being a fool and writer fiat.

Trickster 03-11-2014 05:00 PM

Considering they are all attending a trial for war crimes without being accused, id say they are all fucking effective and cunning.

Millenia 03-11-2014 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ijffdrie (Post 1078237)
Well, here's the thing. Look at the mixed success:
-Lordaeron - Led by Sylvanas - Complete Success
-Gilneas - Led by Sylvanas - Moderate Success
-Azshara - Led by the goblins - Complete success
-Ashenvale - Led by Garrosh - Failure
-Twilight Highlands - Led by Garrosh - Initial Failure, salvaged by unexpected assistance
-Stonetalon Mountains - Organized by Garrosh - Failure, dissolved by garrosh
-Barrens - Organized by Garrosh - Stalemate in Field of Giants, Failure in the assault on Nortwatch

While Garrosh has certainly given orders to start attacks that turned out to be succesful, none of the assaults he had a personal stake in came anywhere close to succeeding.



I'll give you Theramore (though I'd argue that it had nothing to do with Garrosh' personal abilities, but the sheer luck he had in that one blood elf spy), but the Vale wasn't even a target, and was basically just a coincidental side effect.

In Tides of War Garrosh cleared out most of the Alliance bases in the Barrens, except for Honor's Stand. The main Alliance offensive into Horde territory was, ultimately, crushed. He gets credit for that, even if it's shared with Baine and Vol'jin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fojar (Post 1079286)
Which chunks of the Alliance did he break off? I suppose there's the Argent Crusade but that was Eitrigg combined with Tirion being a fool and writer fiat.

The Silver Hand, Cenarion Circle, and, for a time, Dalaran.

In addition to, of course, preventing most anyone important in the Alliance, except for Jaina, from even thinking about ending the Horde, quite unlike how things went in WC2.

Avon 03-11-2014 05:33 PM

Say what you want a bout Sylvanas but she has been very successful at building up the Forsaken from almost nothing.

Ganishka 03-11-2014 05:50 PM

Lor'themar Theron. He is an excellent military commander, and an honorable leader of his people who leads not out lust for power, but to best secure his people's future. Was badass enough to stand up to Jaina Proudmoore, even though he was magically outmatched.

Menel'dirion 03-11-2014 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaronGrackle (Post 1079257)
Thrall. The guy's naive as a brick about his own people's history, but he brings victories when he's around.

Also Blackhand. The only orcish who successfully coordinated a Horde victory against a human kingdom.

Wait, was the conquest of Azeroth/Stormwind completed before or after Doomhammer took power?

Vexander 03-11-2014 06:02 PM

Most Effective:

Lor'themar Theron
Sylvanas Windrunner

Least Effective:

Garrosh Hellscream
Gallywix
Gamon

BaronGrackle 03-11-2014 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menel'dirion (Post 1079334)
Wait, was the conquest of Azeroth/Stormwind completed before or after Doomhammer took power?

Sources differ, but it's probably Doomhammer according to current lore. HOWEVER, I'm going to factor in the following points:

1) Current lore constantly tells us Stormwind wouldn't have fallen without Garona's assassination of King Llane. This was done under Gul'dan's initiative, and Gul'dan was the political leader behind Blackhand's military.

2) Stormwind was only the final Horde victory. There had to be a string of victories and forward momentum beforehand.

3) Look at the Second War. Just look at the Second War. Not a single decisive Horde victory, other than burning down Blackwood. That's what happens when Doomhammer gets full strategic control.

Drusus 03-12-2014 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexander (Post 1079343)
Most Effective:

Lor'themar Theron
Sylvanas Windrunner

Least Effective:

Garrosh Hellscream
Gallywix
Gamon

Garrosh, for all of his bullshit, was pretty damn successful. It's just that he went too far off the deep end. Maybe if he didn't try to kill Vol'jin he'd have been doing a lot better right now.

Vexander 03-12-2014 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drusus (Post 1079479)
Garrosh, for all of his bullshit, was pretty damn successful. It's just that he went too far off the deep end. Maybe if he didn't try to kill Vol'jin he'd have been doing a lot better right now.

I don't know. None of his campaigns really won. In Cataclysm, even if its not obvious, he pretty much lost all of his battles. In Wolfheart, we was thwarted by the Worgen. His Twilight Highlands intro made him look inept and was won without him. About the only victory he had was in Tides of War, otherwise he lost or has been pushed back continually. His ability to effectively lead the Horde was likewise proven to be pretty awful.

Kellick 03-12-2014 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexander (Post 1079832)
I don't know. None of his campaigns really won. In Cataclysm, even if its not obvious, he pretty much lost all of his battles. In Wolfheart, we was thwarted by the Worgen. His Twilight Highlands intro made him look inept and was won without him. About the only victory he had was in Tides of War, otherwise he lost or has been pushed back continually. His ability to effectively lead the Horde was likewise proven to be pretty awful.

Hell, he lost in Theramore too, considering his forces lost control of Dustwallow and Northwatch even after the bomb was dropped.

It's a salient point of Cataclysm that Garrosh's actions were met with almost universal failure.

Galka 03-12-2014 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaronGrackle (Post 1079432)
3) Look at the Second War. Just look at the Second War. Not a single decisive Horde victory, other than burning down Blackwood. That's what happens when Doomhammer gets full strategic control.

Did you read Tides of Darkness? It's heavily implied that Doomhammer would have taken Lordaeron had not decided to take the high road divert troops to stop Gul'dan. You can say no decisive victories, but he was less than days from winning the second war completely, and that's far more important.

PajamaSalad 03-12-2014 06:33 PM

Does the Horde ever succeed at anything?

Mark_Romaneck 03-12-2014 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1079887)
Does the Horde ever succeed at anything?

I dont know ask Cenarius

Noitora 03-12-2014 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1079887)
Does the Horde ever succeed at anything?

Yes.

PajamaSalad 03-12-2014 06:46 PM

The Horde just seems really irresponsible and clumsy.

Noitora 03-12-2014 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1079892)
The Horde just seems really irresponsible and clumsy.

Not really.

PajamaSalad 03-12-2014 06:50 PM

It is true. The Horde isn't malicious but they causes a lot of pain and suffering to people around them.

Fojar 03-12-2014 06:52 PM

The two Horde races that hurt others the most are also two races that were never supposed to exist on Azeroth.

Millenia 03-12-2014 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellick (Post 1079836)
Hell, he lost in Theramore too, considering his forces lost control of Dustwallow and Northwatch even after the bomb was dropped.

Didn't he purposely pull back from Dustwallow, considering it's just a swamp?

Either way, he cleared out most of the human problem in the Barrens, so it's still only slightly less of a success compared to Sylvanas's Gilneas campaign.


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