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-   -   The Horde: What now? (http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/showthread.php?t=215824)

Mutterscrawl 04-05-2014 09:20 PM

The Horde: What now?
 
Okay so I'm just... sad and tired.

I'm kind of tired of the Horde's testosterone poisoning.

We can't be evil and competent or own it.

Always being manipulated.

When we're "Good" we're ineffectual and pathetic.

Is there even a point anymore?

Literally everything iconic to the playable Horde has been co-opted and used more, and better, by its other versions.

The problems the Alliance suffers with neutral factions, the Horde suffers with villains.

Vexander 04-05-2014 09:42 PM

Perhaps its time the Horde was defined and allowed to grow by its differences rather than its similarities. Let's be honest, most people have always assumed there to be two different Hordes.


The Kalimdor Horde - Also known as the, 'Core,' Horde, it consisted of Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls, and later would gain Goblins. Ogres would be an off-shoot race-member. To put it simply, this Horde was rooted in a culture of spiritualism, primal honor, and wisdom. It was a band of Monsters and Villains that sought to improve themselves, to become something more than what they had been, and were known as.

The Eastern Kingdoms Horde - More or less not considered part of the, 'Real,' Horde, the Eastern Kingdoms Horde consisted of Forsaken, and Blood Elves, remnants of the Alliance that had been tainted by dark forces. These races were part of the Horde strictly out of convenience, and stick out like a sore thumb. In many ways, they're responsible for staining the, 'Core,' Horde with increasingly dark splotches.



However, for a long time people tried to make both parts seem as one, defining them and uniting them by such concepts as Pragmatism or shared pasts of being tainted/manipulated by darker powers. Indeed, the Horde's popularity with the players, incorporating both sides, was that they were all underdogs and victims.

So, seems to me that a good way for the Horde to grow is to acknowledge its differences, its diversity, to explore its fractures, for it to decide on its own just what it will grow into.

Mutterscrawl 04-05-2014 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexander (Post 1093546)
Perhaps its time the Horde was defined and allowed to grow by its differences rather than its similarities. Let's be honest, most people have always assumed there to be two different Hordes.


The Kalimdor Horde - Also known as the, 'Core,' Horde, it consisted of Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls, and later would gain Goblins. Ogres would be an off-shoot race-member. To put it simply, this Horde was rooted in a culture of spiritualism, primal honor, and wisdom. It was a band of Monsters and Villains that sought to improve themselves, to become something more than what they had been, and were known as.

The Eastern Kingdoms Horde - More or less not considered part of the, 'Real,' Horde, the Eastern Kingdoms Horde consisted of Forsaken, and Blood Elves, remnants of the Alliance that had been tainted by dark forces. These races were part of the Horde strictly out of convenience, and stick out like a sore thumb. In many ways, they're responsible for staining the, 'Core,' Horde with increasingly dark splotches.



However, for a long time people tried to make both parts seem as one, defining them and uniting them by such concepts as Pragmatism or shared pasts of being tainted/manipulated by darker powers. Indeed, the Horde's popularity with the players, incorporating both sides, was that they were all underdogs and victims.

So, seems to me that a good way for the Horde to grow is to acknowledge its differences, its diversity, to explore its fractures, for it to decide on its own just what it will grow into.

Same problem with the Alliance and nelfs / draenei. Worgen too.

They need to stop trying to make these monolithic groups and make them more about different yet self sufficient groups that work together.

PajamaSalad 04-05-2014 09:51 PM

The Horde feels like a bad kid that lacked a parental figure in their life. Like a five year old with a gun.

Westlee 04-05-2014 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1093555)
The Horde feels like a bad kid that lacked a parental figure in their life. Like a five year old with a gun.

More like a spoiled rich kid that lacks any supervision whatsoever.

Ujimasa Hojo 04-05-2014 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexander (Post 1093546)
The Eastern Kingdoms Horde - More or less not considered part of the, 'Real,' Horde, the Eastern Kingdoms Horde consisted of Forsaken, and Blood Elves, remnants of the Alliance that had been tainted by dark forces. These races were part of the Horde strictly out of convenience, and stick out like a sore thumb. In many ways, they're responsible for staining the, 'Core,' Horde with increasingly dark splotches.

The Blood Elves can't really be lumped with the Forsaken either. As for being a "dark stain' on the Horde, they stopped using Fel stuff and would pretty much be content with keeping to themselves.

JorgeAxe 04-05-2014 11:24 PM

More like an interesting faction that suffers under really bad writers that don't understand the setting or the concept of Orcs not being evil.

Westlee 04-05-2014 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JorgeAxe (Post 1093633)
More like an interesting faction that suffers under really bad writers that don't understand the setting or the concept of Orcs not being evil.

With their values, it'd be impossible to be good.

Mutterscrawl 04-06-2014 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westlee (Post 1093641)
With their values, it'd be impossible to be good.

So let us be evil.

JorgeAxe 04-06-2014 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westlee (Post 1093641)
With their values, it'd be impossible to be good.

Then lets do a reboot to Warcraft II, kay.

Fojar 04-06-2014 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JorgeAxe (Post 1093644)
Then lets do a reboot to Warcraft II, kay.

Despite their heroic efforts, Stormwind ultimately falls to the might of the evil Horde. The haggard refugees rally together however, and flee to Lordae-

Wait.

Theram-

Hm.

Giln-

...

...Tanaris?

Mutterscrawl 04-06-2014 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fojar (Post 1093646)
Despite their heroic efforts, Stormwind ultimately falls to the might of the evil Horde. The haggard refugees rally together however, and flee to Lordae-

Wait.

Theram-

Hm.

Giln-

...

...Tanaris?

You don't grasp the concept of a reboot do you?

EDIT:

Also, good job trying to make this thread about humans :rolleyes:

JorgeAxe 04-06-2014 12:33 AM

By that, I mean continuing where Warcraft II left off.

A Warcraft World where Warcraft Adventures was the canon sequel.

Later Retcons like the Alliance expedition staying on Draenor and the Dragon aspects are gone.

Mutterscrawl 04-06-2014 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JorgeAxe (Post 1093650)
By that, I mean continuing where Warcraft II left off.

A Warcraft World where Warcraft Adventures was the canon sequel.

Later Retcons like the Alliance expedition staying on Draenor and the Dragon aspects are gone.

A neat idea, dragons would be interesting to handle, but all suited to another thread.

This one is about fixing the Horde as it is.

JorgeAxe 04-06-2014 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1093653)
A neat idea, dragons would be interesting to handle, but all suited to another thread.

This one is about fixing the Horde as it is.

We'll only discuss Dragons as in the Horde. By that, Deathwing's followers, who are Green Dragons, like most Dragons.

All Trolls are just Trolls and sound cuban. Many are green, but a few Trolls including player models are Blue. Virtually all trolls are united under Zul'jin.

Fojar 04-06-2014 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1093647)
You don't grasp the concept of a reboot do you?

EDIT:

Also, good job trying to make this thread about humans :rolleyes:


Mutterscrawl 04-06-2014 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fojar (Post 1093657)
*video*

Do you actually have anything to say on topic?

Fojar 04-06-2014 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1093660)
Do you actually have anything to say on topic?


Frostwolf 04-06-2014 12:56 AM

Fojar does this all the time. Just ignore him, dude.

Mutterscrawl 04-06-2014 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmictimelion (Post 1093665)
Fojar does this all the time. Just ignore him, dude.

Mkay.

What're your thoughts on the topic though?

JorgeAxe 04-06-2014 12:58 AM

Nazgrel brings back reinforcements from Outland.

He's finally purified the Fel Orcs who were converted by Illidan against their will.

Mutterscrawl 04-06-2014 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JorgeAxe (Post 1093669)
Nazgrel brings back reinforcements from Outland.

He's finally purified the Fel Orcs who were converted by Illidan against their will.

Kinda abrupt, would help with numbers a bit but not the core problems.

Also, can we even access outland lorewise?

Frostwolf 04-06-2014 01:02 AM

I'm tired of being the villain. (inb4 some idiot comes in and tries to educate me about how the Horde has always been villainous) I don't necessarily want to be good, but I at least want to feel heroic when I'm playing my own faction. You know there's an issue when you can't even sympathize with your faction's actions anymore.

I miss Warcraft 3, really. I miss fighting for a righteous cause like independence, freedom, the right of self-determination, etc. I dislike that Blizzard keeps going backwards and regressing rather than move forward. Orcs slipping back into a Warcraft 1 kind of mindset, the Horde losing another war because of internal struggles, etc. I felt like a hero when I played Warcraft 3. I feel like a jerk when I play WoW. I like grey morality, I like dubious actions, I just dislike being written into a dumb, generic villain role and not even feeling sympathetic to my own faction's villainy.

JorgeAxe 04-06-2014 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1093670)
Kinda abrupt, would help with numbers a bit but not the core problems.

Also retcon the size of the Garrosh's forces in the Siege Of Orgrimmar. Most Orcs were in the rebellion, including much of the Dragonmaw, and the Warsong, who come to think of it, weren't even mentioned in the actual raid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1093670)
Also, can we even access outland lorewise?

I think we can, if not, Nazgrel manages to come back with the reinforcements. Also he gets a hefty promotion for his heroism.

Mutterscrawl 04-06-2014 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmictimelion (Post 1093671)
I'm tired of being the villain. (inb4 some idiot comes in and tries to educate me about how the Horde has always been villainous) I don't necessarily want to be good, but I at least want to feel heroic when I'm playing my own faction. You know there's an issue when you can't even sympathize with your faction's actions anymore.

I miss Warcraft 3, really. I miss fighting for a righteous cause like independence, freedom, the right of self-determination, etc. I dislike that Blizzard keeps going backwards and regressing rather than move forward. Orcs slipping back into a Warcraft 1 kind of mindset, the Horde losing another war because of internal struggles, etc. I felt like a hero when I played Warcraft 3. I feel like a jerk when I play WoW. I like grey morality, I like dubious actions, I just dislike being written into a dumb, generic villain role and not even feeling sympathetic to my own faction's villainy.

I think that's kind of the core of the problem.

We're not even allowed to like our own faction

the guys that aren't like Garrosh are either worse (Sylvanas)

or hyper-pacifists (Baine "i'm going to spare magatha for murdering tons of people but i'll exile people defending mulgore")


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