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Vineyard 05-16-2018 09:20 AM

Before the Storm Discussion
 
Didn't find a topic for this.

Since the Amazon Spoilers pretty much revealed much of the story and people using the world search function in it to "datamine" stuff, that wasn't official displayed, I think a spoiler/duiscussion topic might be necessary.

One major thing that got datamined:

Yes, Calia is killed by Sylvanas, but later gets resurrected at netherlight Temple as a Undead(ish).

It it is also revealed, Pre-Third War she fell in love with a Non-Nobleman, got secretly married and had a daughter.

Because Arthas was first in line, everybody believed Jaina and him would make an "offical heir" her hubby and child were hidden outside Lordereon in Southshore.

During the Third War, Calia managed to escape the Scourge Attack and got reunited with her Family in Southsshore, were they lived happily for many years, her real identity not known.

Then the Forsaken attacked Southshore with the Blight during Cata and they got seperated. (Calia was apparently rescued by some guy on a horse.)

Noitora 05-16-2018 09:30 AM

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...age=7#post-138

Huh. Fojar was right.

Vineyard 05-16-2018 12:09 PM

http://www.wowhead.com/news=284452/b...eview-spoilers

The Full Spoiler.

Yeah, lots of Calia Build Up.

Quirnheim 05-16-2018 12:13 PM

I echo what I said earlier; the concept of light-raised Forsaken is probably the dumbest fucking thing I've ever read, and I've read some quality shitposts over my years

Lord Grimtale 05-16-2018 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quirnheim (Post 1619537)
I echo what I said earlier; the concept of light-raised Forsaken is probably the dumbest fucking thing I've ever read, and I've read some quality shitposts over my years

This may be surprising to you, but I actually like the potential behind this development. People are suspecting it's a way of replacing the Forsaken, but right now I'm leaning more strongly on the idea that this is a way of giving the Alliance an allied race of "good" Undead that follow far more closely to their Lordaeron heritage rather than casting it aside and becoming a perversion of their former selves.

It fits really well with how they've been adding Second War allies to the Alliance in an altered form. Gilneas came back as cursed Worgen, High Elves came back as Void-infused elves, Kul Tirans are coming back as half-Drust, and now this could potentially mean that the people of Lordaeron come back as devout Undead champions that are like Leonid Bartholomew in ideology.

Ganishka 05-16-2018 01:31 PM

These reveals please me.

>Sylvanas is entirely at fault for lying to the Horde and her own people, commits war crimes to cover it up.
>Calia lives as an Undead, and now is a witness to Sylvanas' evil and powerlust.
>Kalec x Jaina ship is sunk.
>That feel when the Horde and Forsaken (who are shown loving Calia and wanting to follow her) find out about what Sylvanas did, combined with Saurfang and others.
>Eitrigg says in the Mag'har scenario that they would be fighting "tyrants". Sylvanas is explicitly a tyrant who demands barbaric "loyalty" from everyone at the point of a sword.

It feels as if everything just fell into place with these spoilers. I am excited!

Asterisk 05-16-2018 02:07 PM

It seems like there's a very real possibility Calia is Taelia's mom, and I don't know how I feel about that. I like her a lot, I thought Bolvar was fine, but Bolvar and Calia?

Though it says she had her kid with a non-noble, and I think the Fordragons are noble, so maybe not.

Krakhed 05-16-2018 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quirnheim (Post 1619537)
I echo what I said earlier; the concept of light-raised Forsaken is probably the dumbest fucking thing I've ever read, and I've read some quality shitposts over my years

Calia's lines make it seem like she's being compelled by the Light, and now she's been made their messiah to the Forsaken. This is the way of the new Light. Conversion. Just as they converted Grom's son in the other timeline.

Hallowed are the Naaru. Because people are mistaken when they think Blizzard is just ripping off Babylon 5. They've also watched Stargate.

Calia is their Prior.

Menel'dirion 05-16-2018 03:25 PM

Made a thread/poll to discuss the merits of Holy Undead as opposed to San’layn or whatever other variants people can think up as a Allied Race.

http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/showthread.php?t=221428

EDIT: another possibility: Calia as Arthas’ only (Un)living kin, is the true heir........ to the Frozen Throne. All hail the Holy Lich Queen.

Temo 05-16-2018 03:52 PM

Female thrall
Bolvar daughter
Calia Menethil
Sylvanas
Queen Anduin Wrynn

Its gonna be
Wrath of the Lich King 2: This time with women :D

Patrick_C 05-16-2018 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krakhed (Post 1619553)
Calia's lines make it seem like she's being compelled by the Light, and now she's been made their messiah to the Forsaken. This is the way of the new Light. Conversion. Just as they converted Grom's son in the other timeline.

Hallowed are the Naaru. Because people are mistaken when they think Blizzard is just ripping off Babylon 5. They've also watched Stargate.

Calia is their Prior.

What?

What in Calia's lines suggest "compulsion" in any shape or form?

Krakhed 05-16-2018 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick_C (Post 1619562)
What?

What in Calia's lines suggest "compulsion" in any shape or form?

Calia has been having nightmares. Right before she fucks everything up, she recalls her conversation with Saa'ra so suddenly that she staggers, and Saa'ra's words for how to handle her nightmares are slightly offputting. Talking about gifts wrapped in pain and blood. Something she has to do.
http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/735208.jpg

And now that she fucked everything up by "following her heart", the trigger for the whole meeting to go to shit, now she's been risen by the Light as undead. And now she's done what she had to do to be free of her nightmares.
http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/735219.jpg

You don't think there's something a little odd there? That Saa'ra was already telling her about a gift wrapped in pain and blood, even before anything went wrong? Or that recalling her words, with such staggering force, is what triggered Calia's actions? The actions that led to that pain and blood?

The Naaru arranged this.

Peger 05-16-2018 04:38 PM

I don't know if I would use the word "compelled" but the "gift wrapped in pain and blood" bit highly suggests that the N'aaru meant for this to happen. They wanted her to sacrifice herself to become this vessel. It's kind of in keeping with what X'era wanted to do to Illidan.

Arakiba 05-16-2018 05:48 PM

From what I looked at while at work, Anduin also seems to feel some weird compulsions from the Light in the novel. There definitely is something going on.

Krakhed 05-16-2018 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arakiba (Post 1619575)
From what I looked at while at work, Anduin also seems to feel some weird compulsions from the Light in the novel. There definitely is something going on.

Right. None of that excuses Sylvanas, but there's a reason we were given the prophecy "The Boy-King serves at the master's table" and shown less than favorable representations of the Light lately.

Let's assume that Blizzard's writers aren't entirely retarded, and understand that readers make connections between events. Imagine a Horde player reads the book, sees the thing with Calia, and it seems cool. Lightforged undead. But they feel a bit uneasy due to the Illidan/Xe'ra thing.

Now imagine they do the Mag'har scenario, and they see Draenei forcibly converting Orcs for the Naaru. Even prominent members, like the Warchief's son. Someone who would be influential enough to spread the Light further. And you also realize that Xe'ra was not alone and not unique.

Then you look back at Calia, and the idea of a Light undead strikes you as odd. On one hand, it speaks of acceptance of her dead people, something "meant to be". On the other hand, we've seen Draenei "accepting" Orcs and the "destiny" the Naaru offer when they forge someone a new path. Rather than "destiny" it strikes one as "suspiciously convenient".

I honestly think that the Forsaken need to save themselves from Sylvanas, without an idol to depend upon.

Menel'dirion 05-16-2018 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krakhed (Post 1619578)
Right. None of that excuses Sylvanas, but there's a reason we were given the prophecy "The Boy-King serves at the master's table" and shown less than favorable representations of the Light lately.

Let's assume that Blizzard's writers aren't entirely retarded, and understand that readers make connections between events. Imagine a Horde player reads the book, sees the thing with Calia, and it seems cool. Lightforged undead. But they feel a bit uneasy due to the Illidan/Xe'ra thing.

Now imagine they do the Mag'har scenario, and they see Draenei forcibly converting Orcs for the Naaru. Even prominent members, like the Warchief's son. Someone who would be influential enough to spread the Light further. And you also realize that Xe'ra was not alone and not unique.

Then you look back at Calia, and the idea of a Light undead strikes you as odd. On one hand, it speaks of acceptance of her dead people, something "meant to be". On the other hand, we've seen Draenei "accepting" Orcs and the "destiny" the Naaru offer when they forge someone a new path. Rather than "destiny" it strikes one as "suspiciously convenient".

I honestly think that the Forsaken need to save themselves from Sylvanas, without an idol to depend upon.

I like where your head is at.

Does anyone remember the vision of the Forlorn? It wouldn’t surprise me if no one did (including Blizzard). I just wonder if, in this context, Calia might redeem Bolvar. Or perhaps some other Naaru will take his Scars.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Vision_of_the_Forlorn

Cacofonix 05-16-2018 09:33 PM

"Alliance leaders now advocate Undead rights"

Haha are they getting ideas from their forum now?

Vineyard 05-17-2018 12:40 AM

@Taelia:

Besides having a similar name, I don't think she's Calia's daughter, since it doesn't add up with the things that got "datamined".

Calia, her Hubby and her daughter were secretly living in Southshore Post Third Years, until Cata. During that time, Bolvar already was in Stormwind and Taelia living in Kul'Tiras.

Naa, her daughter is imo. another setup for the future.

But I agree that the whole thing with the Naaru is fishy. Kinda fit's with Pyromancer's theories, if you know his channel.

Crazyterran 05-17-2018 03:14 AM

In before this leads to faction amalgamation, since the Forsaken bieng redeemed would pretty much remove the major sticking point.

I will also take a new allied race based in a under reconstruction Capital City, led by Calia the Light Knight. I mean, all they need to do is give the Forsaken skin white eyes instead of yellow, and the jobs a good un. Take away Warlocks... give them... ugh... paladins.

Patrick_C 05-17-2018 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krakhed (Post 1619564)
Calia has been having nightmares. Right before she fucks everything up, she recalls her conversation with Saa'ra so suddenly that she staggers, and Saa'ra's words for how to handle her nightmares are slightly offputting. Talking about gifts wrapped in pain and blood. Something she has to do.
http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/735208.jpg

And now that she fucked everything up by "following her heart", the trigger for the whole meeting to go to shit, now she's been risen by the Light as undead. And now she's done what she had to do to be free of her nightmares.
http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/735219.jpg

You don't think there's something a little odd there? That Saa'ra was already telling her about a gift wrapped in pain and blood, even before anything went wrong? Or that recalling her words, with such staggering force, is what triggered Calia's actions? The actions that led to that pain and blood?

The Naaru arranged this.

No, I don't think there's anything odd. "Gift wrapped in pain and blood" is just Golden's perhaps-unskilled rendition of the ages-old theodicy that evil is only allowed to happen so that a greater good can be pulled out of it.

I readily admit that Blizzard is taking a course that portrays the Light ins unfavorable terms, as a cosmic force that's not necessarily benevolent or sympathetic towards mortals, but that is not the case here. This is standard "The Light is Good and never abandons it's champion" stuff.

Krakhed 05-17-2018 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick_C (Post 1619595)
No, I don't think there's anything odd. "Gift wrapped in pain and blood" is just Golden's perhaps-unskilled rendition of the ages-old theodicy that evil is only allowed to happen so that a greater good can be pulled out of it.

I readily admit that Blizzard is taking a course that portrays the Light ins unfavorable terms, as a cosmic force that's not necessarily benevolent or sympathetic towards mortals, but that is not the case here. This is standard "The Light is Good and never abandons it's champion" stuff.

I don't think you understand. Blizzard isn't taking a course that the Light isn't benevolent or sympathetic. The words of Xe'ra, of the Lightbound, are laced with benevolence and sympathy.

The Light is good and never abandons us, even if we desperately wish it'd stop trying to help and would just leave us the fuck alone.

The Light cannot help but be sympathetic and altruistic. That's a fundamental part of what the Light is. "All are one in the Light" has a meaning, it relates to how the Light connects things and the perspective involved. Of course the Naaru aren't going to start preaching hatred and vileness. Of course they'll say that sometimes evil must be allowed to happen for the sake of the greater good, because that's the only way a Naaru could ever justify doing evil.

The Naaru aren't necessarily good because being sympathetic, well-meaning, benevolent, and altruistic doesn't stop you from rationalizing some fucked up things.

Asterisk 05-17-2018 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vineyard (Post 1619589)
@Taelia:

Besides having a similar name, I don't think she's Calia's daughter, since it doesn't add up with the things that got "datamined".

Calia, her Hubby and her daughter were secretly living in Southshore Post Third Years, until Cata. During that time, Bolvar already was in Stormwind and Taelia living in Kul'Tiras.

Naa, her daughter is imo. another setup for the future.

Ah, that's true.

Fojar 05-17-2018 03:38 PM

So

- Sizable population of Lordaeron refugees in the Alliance
- "Alliance always kills undead on sight" proven to be a crock of shit
- The members of the Forsaken who are the innocent "people of Lordaeron" actively try to defect to the Alliance, and the few that don't are killed anyway
- Calia and Faol are both Alliance
- Alliance is going to gain control of Lordaeron at the start of the expansion anyway

I'm pretty satisfied with this for the most part. Seems to suggest Holy Undead allied races for the Alliance, with Calia as their faction leader.

Boy does this mess with what we knew about undead meta physiology though. Whatever, I was the only one who gave a shit anyway

Vineyard 05-17-2018 04:17 PM


Not bad video on this. Wasn't aware of the possible RL influences.

Fojar 05-17-2018 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vineyard (Post 1619622)
Wasn't aware of the possible RL influences.

You mean my posts over the past decade


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