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  #576  
Old 09-12-2017, 08:18 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I find it a little bizarre that 6/9 of the justices tic themselves as Catholic. Not that it causes them to have similar moral compasses or anything...
That is an odd statistical anomaly but i don't think it matters much on its own.

My only concern though is that they legislate objectively, same as all the other justices.

Edit:

I'm still concerned about the ritual cave from the previous page, there are a lot of natural sacred sites that are protected from development... Up until they suddenly aren't
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  #577  
Old 09-14-2017, 04:42 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I'm not sure whether to put this in the religion thread, the economics thread, or the abortion thread...
In the latest form of superstition-based economics, Oklahoma Republicans want to improve their economy by appealing to a magical man in the sky by banning abortion. Seriously.
"If we take care of the morality, God will take care of the economy."
http://bloomsmag.com/oklahoma-only-n...orm-abortions/
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  #578  
Old 09-16-2017, 01:47 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Four_Gods

An interesting look at different views of god in the US
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  #579  
Old 09-17-2017, 06:59 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Four_Gods

An interesting look at different views of god in the US
Thanks for the link. I may check it out sometime, as I have follow-up questions after reading the wiki. Mainly: does the book place individuals into only one of these four groups, or is there a statistical inuence of the four in most people?

I ask because, personally, I believe God can intervene to punish or aid, that often he doesn't intervene, and that we are judged in the afterlife. I wouldn't fit exactly in one of those groups; I'm inclined to think few people would.
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  #580  
Old 09-17-2017, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Four_Gods

An interesting look at different views of god in the US
I get that the point of the book (or at least, I think that's what it's going for from the description) is to look at how various groups and world views are expressed via interpretations of God, but the general division along those two axes into four groups seems like a perfectly reasonable theological thesis.
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  #581  
Old 09-20-2017, 08:47 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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A recent study has found that religions children are meaner than secular children.
"- Family religious identification decreases children’s altruistic
behaviors
- Religiousness predicts parent-reported child sensitivity to
injustices and empathy
- Children from religious households are harsher in their
punitive tendencies"
"Decety and colleagues assessed altruism
and moral cognition in six countries.
Parents in religious households reported
that their children expressed more
empathy and sensitivity for justice in
everyday life. However, religiousness was
inversely predictive of children’s altruism
and positively correlated with their
punitive tendencies."
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...15)01167-7.pdf

This lines up with my personal experiences.
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  #582  
Old 09-20-2017, 10:45 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I hope it doesn't line up with your personal experiences with me!

But I'll have a look at it when I get time. See what definitions and parameters they used. (For example, how many are children raised in a religious household who rejected the faith?)
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  #583  
Old 09-20-2017, 10:54 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I hope it doesn't line up with your personal experiences with me!
Being nonreligious as a child can be difficult. I was regularly harassed and told that I was going to hell and things. Some kids weren't allowed to hang out with me.
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  #584  
Old 09-20-2017, 11:10 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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A cruel religious person will use religion to justify their cruelty. A cruel non-religious person will use pragmatism or some other belief system as a justification for the same.

The older I get, the more I'm convinced that religiosity (or the lack of the same) does relatively little to change a person's core personality.
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  #585  
Old 09-20-2017, 11:13 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
A cruel religious person will use religion to justify their cruelty. A cruel non-religious person will use pragmatism or some other belief system as a justification for the same.

The older I get, the more I'm convinced that religiosity (or the lack of the same) does relatively little to change a person's core personality.
That study came to the conclusion that there is a correlation of some kind. Of course, it's only one study of relatively limited scope, but there does seem to be some kind of connection. Maybe religion makes kids meaner. Maybe families that are more religious are more likely to raise kids to be mean. Maybe there's a genetic predisposition of meanness that the parents pass on which also causes them to be more religious.
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  #586  
Old 09-20-2017, 12:09 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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That study came to the conclusion that there is a correlation of some kind. Of course, it's only one study of relatively limited scope, but there does seem to be some kind of connection. Maybe religion makes kids meaner. Maybe families that are more religious are more likely to raise kids to be mean. Maybe there's a genetic predisposition of meanness that the parents pass on which also causes them to be more religious.
The study is probably bullshit, just like most attempts to quantify human nature.
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  #587  
Old 09-20-2017, 12:38 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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The study is probably bullshit, just like most attempts to quantify human nature.
That is how I feel about most of those kind of studies and why I don't think it should be called science. I think it is just a lack of self-awareness that people can believe or produce those kind of studies. Instead of arriving to conclusions based off of the evidence they are building the evidence around the conclusion they want.
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  #588  
Old 09-20-2017, 12:48 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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The study is probably bullshit, just like most attempts to quantify human nature.
How? Do you just believe that no human behavior can be explained?
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  #589  
Old 09-20-2017, 02:04 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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That's one way of putting it although I'd be more curious how the religious score on the big 5 personnality traits as opposed to the nonreligious.

I'd expect they'd score similiarily to Conservatives which may explain the general tendency.
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  #590  
Old 09-20-2017, 02:19 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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That's one way of putting it although I'd be more curious how the religious score on the big 5 personnality traits as opposed to the nonreligious.

I'd expect they'd score similiarily to Conservatives which may explain the general tendency.
That could have something to do with it, yeah. Religions seem to be primarily fear-based (eg, follow this belief or you go to hell) and right-wingers have been found to have larger amygdalas (the part of the brain associated with fear and anxiety) and less gray matter than others. Of course, we don't know if maybe being raised in a right-wing environment helps shape their brains in that way or how it all comes together.
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  #591  
Old 09-20-2017, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
A cruel religious person will use religion to justify their cruelty. A cruel non-religious person will use pragmatism or some other belief system as a justification for the same.

The older I get, the more I'm convinced that religiosity (or the lack of the same) does relatively little to change a person's core personality.
I wouldn't quite say that was entirely true - there are a number of intellectual and ethical crimes that are the specific result of somebody's religiosity. The late Christopher Hitchens phrased this point in his two-parted challenge to 'A: Name an ethical statement or deed that was said or committed by a believer that could not have been made by a non-believer and B: To name a wicked statement or deed that could only have been made by a believer.' And while it is near-impossible to give a compelling example for the first challenge; the second is shockingly easy to answer. The suicide-murder community is almost entirely religious (specifically jihadists at this moment in history) while the mutilation of the genitals of infants is exclusively a religious behavior (specifically by the Islamic, Jewish and animist faiths.)

There are more examples I could cite, but those two are just to show that religion can make otherwise good people say and do some very foolish or wicked things.
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  #592  
Old 09-20-2017, 05:06 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I wouldn't quite say that was entirely true - there are a number of intellectual and ethical crimes that are the specific result of somebody's religiosity. The late Christopher Hitchens phrased this point in his two-parted challenge to 'A: Name an ethical statement or deed that was said or committed by a believer that could not have been made by a non-believer and B: To name a wicked statement or deed that could only have been made by a believer.' And while it is near-impossible to give a compelling example for the first challenge; the second is shockingly easy to answer. The suicide-murder community is almost entirely religious (specifically jihadists at this moment in history) while the mutilation of the genitals of infants is exclusively a religious behavior (specifically by the Islamic, Jewish and animist faiths.)

There are more examples I could cite, but those two are just to show that religion can make otherwise good people say and do some very foolish or wicked things.
But that could apply just as much to followers of any belief system. Suicide bombing was actually pioneered by the Tamil Tigers, who were nationalists. Violence against landowners and their descendants is a common trait of communist regimes. Violence against people outside of one's race is frequently accepted in racist communities.

If violence is seen as an acceptable or desirable action, you'll see more people choose to be violent. Religion is just one form of many that it can take, so there's no reason to single it out.

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How? Do you just believe that no human behavior can be explained?
I believe that the explanations tend to say more about the explainer than about the subject.
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  #593  
Old 09-20-2017, 06:06 PM
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But that could apply just as much to followers of any belief system. Suicide bombing was actually pioneered by the Tamil Tigers, who were nationalists. Violence against landowners and their descendants is a common trait of communist regimes. Violence against people outside of one's race is frequently accepted in racist communities.

If violence is seen as an acceptable or desirable action, you'll see more people choose to be violent. Religion is just one form of many that it can take, so there's no reason to single it out.

...
The totality of civilization's threats are not religious - but the influence of organized religion has, does and will make humanity's problems inexorably more complicated and dangerous. Take the Israel-Palestine conflict: what is otherwise a perfectly solvable dispute between two nationalisms competing for territory is made impossible because each of the parties of god believe that they have been given exclusive dominion over that land; but worse than that it is a conflict that has all the potential to eventually become a nuclear one that will doom civilization as we know it. So without religions there would still be sadists, nihilists and relativists in the world - but those who wish to impose theocracy on the world, and the violence by which they attempt to implement it, share much of the blame for humanity doing terrible things for irrational reasons.

The examples you cite prove the notion that dogma, an unchallengeable obedience to authority, is the problem there - be it religious or secular. Faith -the act of accepting something as true in spite of any evidence- is not a virtue by itself; and would not be respected in any other context but a religious one.
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  #594  
Old 09-20-2017, 06:17 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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The totality of civilization's threats are not religious - but the influence of organized religion has, does and will make humanity's problems inexorably more complicated and dangerous. Take the Israel-Palestine conflict: what is otherwise a perfectly solvable dispute between two nationalisms competing for territory is made impossible because each of the parties of god believe that they have been given exclusive dominion over that land; but worse than that it is a conflict that has all the potential to eventually become a nuclear one that will doom civilization as we know it. So without religions there would still be sadists, nihilists and relativists in the world - but those who wish to impose theocracy on the world, and the violence by which they attempt to implement it, share much of the blame for humanity doing terrible things for irrational reasons.

The examples you cite prove the notion that dogma, an unchallengeable obedience to authority, is the problem there - be it religious or secular. Faith -the act of accepting something as true in spite of any evidence- is not a virtue by itself; and would not be respected in any other context but a religious one.
If the problem is dogma, fair enough—but that expands beyond religion. Nor does it need an explicitly religious context in which to flourish (though you could make the argument that communism, as historically practiced, is a religion, as is extreme nationalism).

I'm an agnostic, so I have no personal stake in religion.
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Old 09-20-2017, 06:48 PM
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If the problem is dogma, fair enough—but that expands beyond religion. Nor does it need an explicitly religious context in which to flourish (though you could make the argument that communism, as historically practiced, is a religion, as is extreme nationalism).

I'm an agnostic, so I have no personal stake in religion.
I would argue that nationalism -it need not be in an extreme form but even its milder interpretations-
is a form of civic religion. Nationalism imbues the state with the iconography of religion - with its mythical origins, sainted figures, revered texts, shared holidays, important symbols, public art and the offer of a collective identity. The only element that is missing from the analogy are the supernatural claims - and yet even those are sometimes present.

As someone with internationalist sensibilities I would simply have to assert, if I could not prove, that collectively we have responsibilities to others that must supercede any tribal loyalty to one's own state or religion.
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Old 09-20-2017, 06:52 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I would argue that nationalism -it need not be in an extreme form but even its milder interpretations-
is a form of civic religion. Nationalism imbues the state with the iconography of religion - with its mythical origins, sainted figures, revered texts, shared holidays, important symbols, public art and the offer of a collective identity. The only element that is missing from the analogy are the supernatural claims - and yet even those are sometimes present.

As someone with internationalist sensibilities I would simply have to assert, if I could not prove, that collectively we have responsibilities to others that must supercede any tribal loyalty to one's own state or religion.
The conversation's drifting a bit. Do we then agree that the problem is not religion so much as it is unbending dogmatism, which can be both religious and secular?
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Old 09-20-2017, 07:04 PM
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The conversation's drifting a bit. Do we then agree that the problem is not religion so much as it is unbending dogmatism, which can be both religious and secular?
We agree, yes, that dogma is a phenomena that afflicts both the religious and secular - but no that would not excuse the multitude of other problems associated with organized religions. Specifically its claims about the supernatural; the ethics espoused by its canons and religion's other historical and contempoary offenses to decency and civilization.
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Old 09-20-2017, 07:28 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I believe that the explanations tend to say more about the explainer than about the subject.
So which part of this study do you find contrived?
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Old 09-20-2017, 07:57 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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We agree, yes, that dogma is a phenomena that afflicts both the religious and secular - but no that would not excuse the multitude of other problems associated with organized religions. Specifically its claims about the supernatural; the ethics espoused by its canons and religion's other historical and contempoary offenses to decency and civilization.
Civilization would not exist without religion. And all the offenses you ascribe to religion can just as easily be ascribed to other dogmas.

The problem is not religion. The problem is humanity. Religion is one of many methods that civilization has developed to try and restrain our worst natural impulses. I don't know if it's necessarily the most effective any longer—but I give credit where it is due.

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So which part of this study do you find contrived?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the link you provide said that the procedures were conducted through a computer simulation? A game is so far removed from normal reality that I'm skeptical that in-game behavior really says a lot about the player.
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Old 09-20-2017, 08:30 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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A: Name an ethical statement or deed that was said or committed by a believer that could not have been made by a non-believer
Anything that appeals to eternal afterlife or to a divine quality of humanity will work. Here's an easy example:

"Slavery tyrannically assumes power which Heaven denied,—while, under its barbarous necromancy, borrowed from the Source of Evil, a man is changed into a chattel, a person is withered into a thing, a soul is shrunk into merchandise. Say, Sir, in lofty madness, that you own the sun, the stars, the moon; but do not say that you own a man, endowed with soul to live immortal, when sun and moon and stars have passed away."
-Charles Sumner, 1860

You can say there were secular abolitionists. But I can also point you to secular Crusade atrocities (e.g. the Sacking of Constantinople) or secular Inquisitions (e.g. the French Revolutionary Reign of Terror), so I don't know what examples of religious-only atrocities you'd invoke if we go down that path.

Quote:
The suicide-murder community is almost entirely religious (specifically jihadists at this moment in history)
I recall a number of school shootings/suicides unrelated to religion.

A lot of modern-day shooters go in not expecting to survive. Including those without religious motive.

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while the mutilation of the genitals of infants is exclusively a religious behavior [I](specifically by the Islamic, Jewish and animist faiths.)
You said Jewish. Male circumcision is not comparable to female genital mutilation. Male circumcision is so secularized now that it's common in the U.S., despite the Christian New Testament saying it's not necessary.

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So which part of this study do you find contrived?
Well, there is selective emphasis. It goes on and on about how the religious-raised children shared fewer stickers that they received.

Yet it barely mentions that religious-raised children thought interpersonal physical harm was a bigger deal than those without religious upbringing.

Yeah. Check out p. 2952 on the right, above the "Discussion" section, and reference with the brief "Moral Sensitivity Task" description on p. 2954. The children were shown pictures of kids pushing each other. They were asked how mean this was and how bad the punishment should be. The Muslims thought it was meaner than the Christians, who thought it was meaner than the nonreligious. The Muslims thought the punishment should be harsher; the Christians and nonreligious had equal ideas on the punishment.

But oh, it's summarized in one of the main bulletpoints: "Children from religious households are harsher in their punitive tendencies."

See how that works? The children from nonreligious households don't think physical violence is a big deal; therefore, the children from religious households have "punitive tendencies". There's your bias.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 09-20-2017 at 08:36 PM..
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