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  #126  
Old 05-18-2019, 09:13 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
But they did exactly that. In the same interview, they mention twice that with 8.1, they told only some of Tyrande's story, not all of it. Even within the context of the interview, it is clear that they do not mean the story is finished, only that Tyrande is having her revenge now in Darkshore, and as such, they want to utilize other characters in 8.2.

And it's not like that was the first time they said that 8.1 is only the beginning of the story they have planned for the Kaldorei.
That is an interpretation, and I mentioned that in the previous post - but I don't think it's clear, or that it doesn't require interpretation to get there, which depends very much on whether you give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't, and judging by the forum reaction - many people also do not. They haven't earned that kind of trust.
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  #127  
Old 05-19-2019, 06:34 AM
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It's not an interpretation. They've clearly and openly stated that 8.1 is only the beginning of the story they want to tell.
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  #128  
Old 05-19-2019, 07:35 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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It's not an interpretation. They've clearly and openly stated that 8.1 is only the beginning of the story they want to tell.
Unless you're referencing another interview - yes it is an interpretation. They said that Tyrande "had her moment where we told some of her story and she got her revenge for the Night Elves". That's the plain text of the response.

If you want to take that to mean that they have more to say, it's fine for you to hold up an optimistic position that this must mean that they have more to say (given, I assume that they said they told "some" of her story) - but again, I don't feel that Blizzard has earned that trust, especially with regard to the Night Elves. So until they show me something different, I'm going to base it off of what is in front of me.

You shouldn't expect mainline observers to do any differently, and from what I can gather, they haven't.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...revenge/173337
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...revenge/173510
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...r-revenge-quot
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...ves_according/
https://www.wowhead.com/news=291733/...-with-blizzard
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  #129  
Old 05-20-2019, 05:35 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Yes, I meant another interview. Thought it's clear from my previous post.

As seen in the Terror of Darkshore cinematic, they are feared by the Horde for a reason. They are in touch with nature—but don’t mess with them if you mess with their people or their homes. Exciting to see Tyrande move into a new chapter of her story as she moves into a new role as a Night Warrior. We’re building foundations for future stories.


Ion has been rather explicit that Darkshore is only the beginning. And not once.

About the rest, everyone is free to his/her own opinion.
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  #130  
Old 05-20-2019, 07:52 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Yes, I meant another interview. Thought it's clear from my previous post.

As seen in the Terror of Darkshore cinematic, they are feared by the Horde for a reason. They are in touch with nature—but don’t mess with them if you mess with their people or their homes. Exciting to see Tyrande move into a new chapter of her story as she moves into a new role as a Night Warrior. We’re building foundations for future stories.


Ion has been rather explicit that Darkshore is only the beginning. And not once.

About the rest, everyone is free to his/her own opinion.
I remember that interview, I also remember it being several months before this one. The new information would seem to contradict that, and should supersede it. This also certainly wouldn't be the first time they'd gone back on something they previously said.

Again, you're welcome to an optimistic interpretation and expectation, but do understand why myself and others don't find ourselves willing to give these people the benefit of the doubt.
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  #131  
Old 05-20-2019, 08:40 AM
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Yes, I meant another interview. Thought it's clear from my previous post.

As seen in the Terror of Darkshore cinematic, they are feared by the Horde for a reason. They are in touch with nature—but don’t mess with them if you mess with their people or their homes. Exciting to see Tyrande move into a new chapter of her story as she moves into a new role as a Night Warrior. We’re building foundations for future stories.


Ion has been rather explicit that Darkshore is only the beginning. And not once.

About the rest, everyone is free to his/her own opinion.

Okay yeah but BLIZZARD LIES
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  #132  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:07 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I guess this sort of outlook goes way beyond me.
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  #133  
Old 05-20-2019, 11:04 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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I don't think "Okay yeah but Blizzard lies" is a fair characterization of my point at all. The information we are discussing is more recent, and therefore supersedes the prior interview due to its contradictory nature.
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  #134  
Old 05-20-2019, 12:17 PM
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I don't think "Okay yeah but Blizzard lies" is a fair characterization of my point at all. The information we are discussing is more recent, and therefore supersedes the prior interview due to its contradictory nature.
Oh that's not your point it's mine
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  #135  
Old 05-21-2019, 11:56 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I don't think "Okay yeah but Blizzard lies" is a fair characterization of my point at all. The information we are discussing is more recent, and therefore supersedes the prior interview due to its contradictory nature.
They are not contradictory. The older interview says that 8.1 builds foundations for new stories. The newer interview says that with 8.1, they told a little bit/some of Tyrande's story, twice. Not all of it, a little bit. These are not contradictory statements, on the contrary, they are complementary.
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  #136  
Old 05-22-2019, 06:08 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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They are not contradictory. The older interview says that 8.1 builds foundations for new stories. The newer interview says that with 8.1, they told a little bit/some of Tyrande's story, twice. Not all of it, a little bit. These are not contradictory statements, on the contrary, they are complementary.
The part I'm highlighting is the point where they said that she got her vengeance for the Night Elves - and that part IS contradictory when it comes to the matter at issue. Now, you could say, and I would agree with you, that this doesn't mean that Tyrande herself wouldn't be doing anything - but that would be shifting the goalposts away from the concern I and others are raising.

Again, the ball's in Blizzard's court if they want to walk back this claim that Tyrande has by now gotten her revenge for the Night Elves, but so far they won't do that.
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  #137  
Old 05-22-2019, 06:48 AM
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I feel we are going in circles at this point, so, guess we shall see in time.
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  #138  
Old 06-02-2019, 09:30 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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"When you look back at things with Garrosh, the result of that didn’t really.... you know, it cleaned up some stuff. But it didn’t really fundamentally made the Horde look at themselves and really question "what do we stand for?" "where are we going?". And so with Battle for Azeroth, that was an opportunity to say "alright, let's look at these things".

- Steve Danuser [1]
This is the second time I've quoted Steve Danuser on something that I at least partially agree with him on.

We are aware from the Shattering that Garrosh came into power because the Orcish people wanted such a figure leading them. The Horde, especially as represented by Orcs, is warlike, it values strength, and it certainly had no problem in its attempt to solve its resource issues with war - and it didn't need demon blood to act in that way. We saw the same thing play out in Warlords of Draenor, and with information coming out of 8.2, we know that Sylvanas has the support of the people within the Horde.[2] Most of the Horde has followed, and continues to follow her orders - so it would not be appropriate (as it was not appropriate with Garrosh) to end the discussion of what's wrong with the Horde by pointing at the warchief.

So are Orcs evil? I may not say so, but I would ask: Is the Horde fascist?

I appreciate the incendiary nature of the question, but if history is any guide, good and normal people can nevertheless support monstrous ideologies. Hitler was popular, so were the Japanese militarists, so was Mussolini, and some people find Fascist ideals appealing even to this day.

Although, I may be getting ahead of myself - because Fascism is notoriously difficult to define, but thrown around all of the time. As George Orwell observed in 1944:

Quote:
It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley’s broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else. [3]
For that task, I am going to have to thank Lindsay Ellis's examination of whether the First Order was Fascist [4] for pointing me towards Uberto Eco's "Ur Fascism" or "Eternal Fascism". [5]

There are fourteen features of Ur Fascism, although as Eco observes: "these features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it." As I visit these points, I encourage the reader to also consult the original essay's communication of them - because Eco packs a lot of ideas into each definition.

1. Cult of Tradition
2. Rejection of Modernism (Irrationalism)

I don't believe that the Horde has these features based on Eco's elaboration of what he means by them.

3. Action for Action's sake (Reflection is emasculating/distrust of intellectuals)

The best demonstration of this is probably manifested in Ji Firepaw, the Huojin ideology, and how the Horde was more or less natural for them. [6]

4. Disagreement is treason

We see the best examples of this under Garrosh, with explicit reminders that Hellscream is watching over members of the Horde, his assassination attempt on Vol'jin [7], and later, repression of certain races within the Horde. Sylvanas also seems to be sliding into these tendencies, and is becoming increasingly obsessed with "the disloyal" elements of the Horde. [8]

5. Fear of difference

The conflict between the Alliance and the Horde has never been political, and Sylvanas makes a point of this in A Good War when she lays out the reasons for why she believes peace is impossible. [9]

6. Derives from individual or social frustration

This was Garrosh's primary cause for war. [10]

7. Obsession with a plot against their nation - followers feel besieged

Sylvanas and Saurfang establish this as their cause for war [11], however, Eco also states that the threat must come from within, which makes the establishment of this not so clean-cut (even if we consider rooting out supposed traitors who are traitors in an actual sense). We do see examples of this under Garrosh's regime, however. I am reminded in particular of the outburst in Dark Heart of Pandaria in continuing to keep this. [12]

8. A humiliation at the ostentatious wealth and power of supposed enemies, paired with a belief that they can nevertheless be overwhelmed.

I will once again reference Garrosh's motivations for war, particularly in regard to the Night Elves.

9. Life is permanent warfare

This is so engrained into the identity of the Orcs in particular that I think referencing it is a pointless exercise. Their leader, even in times of peace is referred to as a "Warchief", for example. Linking it to Eco's work in particular though, he observes:

"This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. But such a "final solution" implies a further era of peace, a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament."

For this, I again make reference to reference 11.

10. Popular elitism, contempt for the weak (or the weaknesses in "the other")

I point back to reference 12, however, this sort of attitude is pervasive in the Horde's attitude towards their enemies.

11. A cult of heroism paired with a cult of death. A heroic death is the best reward for a heroic life.

The Horde in general doesn't seem to exhibit it, but that picture changes when Orcs are considered.

12. Disdain for women and condemnation of nonstandard sexual behaviors - from homosexuality to chastity.

I do not believe this applies.

13. The People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the common will. The people do not have individual rights, or representative structures - and the leader is seen as "interpreting" their will.

This is more or less true for most playable races, but with the Horde in particular, the power of the Warchief is absolute - dispensing with tolerating disagreement and consensus building with other leaders when such ideas have lost their purpose. Again, I will reference the attempt to assassinate Vol'jin, and we can look to Baine being imprisoned with other leaders concluding that they may have to rebel in an armed fashion to stop the war.

As for the leaders seen as interpreting their will, I haven't seen explicit declarations of such, but each of the warchiefs does assume an overall responsibility and sense that they are acting in the Horde's interests. Even Sylvanas assumes such in her conversation with Saurfang that I referenced earlier - the matter in that case is not necessarily that she believes in it, but that she is seen as believing in it.

14. Use of "Newspeak"

I do not believe this applies.


My assignment of references is to point out examples, it is not intended to be comprehensive. There are many more cases that come to mind when considering many of these elements, but hunting down and linking all of them would have been too time consuming - especially for an informal thread like this one.

But in summary - the Horde I believe meets ten of the fourteen features. Eco starts to get concerned where even one of them is encountered, which I don't necessarily agree with, but ten out of fourteen is substantial.


So, am I saying that Horde players ought to feel awful because they're fascists? Well... not quite.

Eco's message is that we always have to be on guard for fascism. Given some of the reactions, (defending and/or justifying genocide, for example, regardless of whether or not that includes attempts at reclassification to change the form but not the spirit of the action) I can say that that the story is, in at least some people, bringing out the darker side of humanity.

However, I know that many other Horde players didn't ask for this, and it's a pretty shitty thing to tell huge swaths of your playerbase: "you're fascists and we need to fix you". I do worry, especially given that we are in an era of populist right-wing movements, that this was exactly the aim. Nevertheless, I think doing this to your video game audience is not just cruel, but it may actually feed into the very concern of radicalization that it is trying to address.


References:

[1] https://blizzardwatch.com/2019/01/11...initely-thing/
[2] https://www.wowhead.com/news=291550/...story-spoilers
[3] http://www.telelib.com/authors/O/Orw...e19440324.html
[4]
[5] https://www.pegc.us/archive/Articles/eco_ur-fascism.pdf
[6] https://wow.gamepedia.com/Huojin_Pandaren
[7] https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dagger_in_the_Dark
[8] https://www.wowhead.com/news=291389/...8-broadcast-te
[9] A Good War - Page 10
[10] Heart of War (Garrosh Hellscream's short story)
[11] A Good War - Pages 7 - 14
[12]
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  #139  
Old 06-02-2019, 09:36 PM
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It's bullshit that MoP didn't make the Horde question, I don't know wtf they're thinking, or how they think they've done it any better given there's LESS grassroots presence in the resistance than there was for MoP and it was already piddling then.
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  #140  
Old 06-03-2019, 05:51 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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It's bullshit that MoP didn't make the Horde question, I don't know wtf they're thinking, or how they think they've done it any better given there's LESS grassroots presence in the resistance than there was for MoP and it was already piddling then.
I think they realized the ledge they were on and decided it would be best to climb down. What baffles me is the decision to climb onto a higher ledge in the middle of a windstorm that we see with revisiting this question in the peculiar way that we did, at this particular time in history.
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Old 06-03-2019, 03:12 PM
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I think they realized the ledge they were on and decided it would be best to climb down. What baffles me is the decision to climb onto a higher ledge in the middle of a windstorm that we see with revisiting this question in the peculiar way that we did, at this particular time in history.
They're in a bubble, they have no idea the implications of the story they're telling.

Either that or they just... don't... care.
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  #142  
Old 06-07-2019, 04:25 PM
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I completely disagree with Danuser and I don't think he was the first to bring up that malarkey.

TLDR: it implies Hordlings are morons. Mop was enough, or should have been to teach them a lesson.

Because it implies first they had to realize that killing your own people is bad (Cata/MoP) then they have to learn it is not just killing your own people that is bad but exact policies and leadership that leads to infighting (Legion/BfA)... what's next, a third bad Warchief so they can realize it is not just exact policies but a bad guiding philosophy that was ultimately at fault? Ahoy Warchief Gallywix : /

And this seems mostly about it being bad about the Horde itself, still leaves room for 3 or so more expansions where they need to learn the same thing as they realize Alliance are people too just like them...

And the Horde may have been greatly changed by Thrall but it suffered infighting before it was under Thrall and the orcs should remember, the other races should have similar experiences and indeed everyone with an IQ over 60 should have more introspection than the Horde is shown to have.

MoP was enough, yet here we are in the same boat.
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  #143  
Old 06-07-2019, 11:36 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I completely disagree with Danuser and I don't think he was the first to bring up that malarkey.

TLDR: it implies Hordlings are morons. Mop was enough, or should have been to teach them a lesson.

Because it implies first they had to realize that killing your own people is bad (Cata/MoP) then they have to learn it is not just killing your own people that is bad but exact policies and leadership that leads to infighting (Legion/BfA)... what's next, a third bad Warchief so they can realize it is not just exact policies but a bad guiding philosophy that was ultimately at fault? Ahoy Warchief Gallywix : /
Well, it's not like the Horde is a morally advanced society.

They are veeeeeeeery young and societies take ages to synthesize moral experiences.
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Old 06-08-2019, 08:34 AM
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Well, it's not like the Horde is a morally advanced society.

They are veeeeeeeery young and societies take ages to synthesize moral experiences.
Why is the Horde subjected to this level of realism but no other faction is?
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Old 06-08-2019, 06:41 PM
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Why is the Horde subjected to this level of realism but no other faction is?
All other factions developed their moralities with the help of millennia-old elves.

It also makes sense how the Blood Elves were the first to try and jump off the boat in MoP.

As for the Nightborne, they haven't practiced international affairs for thousands of years, which is perfect for lethargic reactions.
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Old 06-09-2019, 11:21 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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This next topic is a little less heavy, but I read Elegy and A Good War instead of relying on secondhand information for my research on the Fascism topic - and it raised another question in my mind:

How successful was the evacuation of Teldrassil?

Page 88 of Elegy contains the following:

"The World Tree was more than a city. It was an entire land, home to countless innocents. How many Night Elves were elsewhere in the world? Far too few. Now, they were all that remained of their people.

Sylvanas Windrunner had committed genocide."

As many Horde fans are quick, and correct in pointing out, this is not a third-person omniscient viewpoint - these are the thoughts of Anduin Wrynn immediately after learning that Teldrassil had been destroyed. Anduin is not an expert on populations, nor is he familiar with every measure the Night Elves may have taken in evacuating the tree. For example, we know that some overseas evacuation had taken place due to the presence of refugees crowded on the decks of Rut'theran (Page 79).

The evacuations themselves began relatively early in the War, taking place before the stand at the Farfallen River, the attempted decapitation strike at Astraanar, and the time it took for the Horde to find a way to address the wisp wall. (Page 33) This had led to a situation where, in Stormwind itself "The flood [of refugees] spread to seemingly every surface of the city, continued down through the Valley of Heroes, and spilled out most of the way to Goldshire (Page 78).

Portals, however, are limited in their ability to transport people - perhaps being able to transport two or three people at a time, although that seems to be an acknowledgement of its nature as a physical bottleneck than a sort of cooldown effect. (Page 82 makes this clear)

So, how do we assess the capacity of a portal to process a line of people in travelling from one destination to another?

How about using air travel as an analogy?

Yes, perhaps it's bad that I was thinking of CGP Grey's video on boarding methods, but there are similarities in the problem. You can only put people through the gate or portal one at a time, and there is an element of expected delay built in with the problem of bags.


In fact, as I was researching this problem, I found out exactly *how slow* that boarding process truly can be, because Mythbusters did a segment on it:


Taking a look at the experiments performed, it took 200 people to board a plane under the following conditions, the following times:

Back to front = 24:29
Random with Seats = 17.15
Window, Middle, Aisle =14:55/15:07
Random no seats = 14:07
Reverse Pyramid = 15:10

Back to front therefore seems ridiculous, and I would add, not probable in the case of refugees who don't have assigned seats and don't need to hold up the entire line to stow a bag once they get to their seats. There are in fact, no seats at all and in theory they can fan out into the city. But for reasons of conservatism, let's assume the structure. We're going to toss out back to front because that's a little too ridiculous, but let's consider average "boarding" times of 20 minutes (to roughly average between the two most extreme values) and 15 minutes (which cuts closer to the "random, no seats" idea that I would expect from refugees being simply put anywhere, unless there was some gate agent in Darnassus that no one informed me about).

Presuming that mages work in shifts to keep the portals open - that's 200 people every 20, or 15 minutes, for twenty-four hours in a day.

20 minutes: 200 * (60/20) * 24 = 14,400 evacuees per day
15 minutes: 200 * (60/15) * 24 = 19,200 evacuees per day

The books themselves depict the invasion in multiple instances of taking days, not hours, making specific provision to the problem of needing to eat and sleep. The prepatch itself also went for a few weeks. I think, given this, and my previous comments on the territorial size of the area we're talking about, that two weeks is a reasonable timeframe for this analysis.

14,900 evacuees per day * 14 days = 208,600
19,200 evacuees per day * 14 days = 268,800

Page 36 establishes that the Night Elves are not a populous people, and that the primary concern is that Darnassus is a major city. To appreciate what that means by standards of the time, London would not reach that until between 1600 and 1650 [1]. Paris hovered around these values from 1300 to about 1600.[2] Prague wouldn't get there until 1900 [3].

There's one other thing to consider:

"Anduin had ordered that the portals be constantly open throughout the city, but the magi had to sleep and eat, as did every one of the stoic but emotionally wrung-out refugees." (Page 69)

There were multiple portals in play, and while doubtlessly those maintaining them would have needed to take shifts, including instances where some portals for a time would need to be closed, they had the capacity to have several of them open. Increase our number of gates to two or three, and the number of evacuated refugees accordingly, doubles or triples.

None of this should be taken of course as an expression of admiration or hope for the story of course - nor should it be presented as a defense for Blizzard's decision to have this happen at all, but I do find it to be interesting - as well as a strong basis to conclude that canonically, the species is far from over (even if it will never again be taken seriously and remains constructively dead).

Additional References:
[1] - http://www.demographia.com/dm-lon31.htm
[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Paris
[3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Prague
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  #147  
Old 06-11-2019, 02:51 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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The issue when discussing Kaldorei numbers is, at least for people who are concerned with the setting as a whole, not just the state of a particular species or land, is that if we go by officially established lore in 2002-2003, they should have been a nearly extinct species with much of their lands shattered, similar to the blood elves or the gnomes. The only reason they haven't is Blizzard's inability to remain consistent and respectful to previously established lore, as well as their belief that gameplay alone is the main priority, in this particular case that environmental diversity is more important than previously established lore (hence Lordaeron, Quel'Thalas and Northern Kalimdor being much less damaged by the war than previously said).
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  #148  
Old 06-25-2019, 06:27 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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One of my most embarrassing moments in my years posting on the Story Forum was that time I accused Dave Kosak of instigating a stealth nerf to Shadowmeld. The compromise with the racial was that we traded a relatively short cooldown for the ability to drop combat. Suddenly, the latter function wasn't working, but the cooldown had still been extended. "Stealth nerf!" I cried, and it was revealed later that it wasn't an evil conspiracy headed up by the Kosak, but actually just a bug that they promptly fixed.

Or was it!!!?1!!1!??

No, it probably wasn't...

On SoL's discord earlier today, I reinforced what I've said elsewhere: I'm not going to buy Warcraft III reforged because of the debacle that emerged earlier this week concerning the possibility of Night Elf Dark Rangers being put into game. You may refer to this thread for the relevant details. Please note posts 2, 53, and 63-67.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-posted/206611

Don't think this makes it better - the armor may be wrong, but the skin tone is unambiguously Night Elven. That point aside, I don't buy that this was a mistake. I think it's only being pulled now because, once again, somebody caught it.

It wouldn't be the first time. When the High King was initially floated, the idea ran into substantial backlash. We got a number of clarifications and edits that did, I will admit, scale back a significant questline, but the "mistakes" then still revealed the company's intentions. The High King by now is fully realized, as is Human domination of the Alliance and it's themes, and while I'm pleased to see some of the homogenization rolled back, the damage it has done is not only pervasive, but irreversible.

This isn't a new tactic, it's basic negotiation. You open with an absurd offer, you "compromise", and you get closer to what you wanted anyway when the dust settles. You can come back and make another small change later, and when you've finished adding these small changes up, you've made a massive change.

This is how a strong, popular, and unique RTS faction goes from that to the homeless human-vassal laughingstock of a race that they are now.

That is why I have been reliable in railing against even the small stuff - it may not matter in isolation, but it matters in total. This is also among the reasons I don't trust them when they call incidents like this "mistakes" - they've pulled this tactic too many times. They've kicked dirt in my face too many times, and they've lied to me too many times.

… and especially now, I'm not alone in that. Ask a Horde fan how they feel about Blizzard's propensity for being honest. Even better: ask one of the Diablo fans who were enticed to spend thousands of dollars on hotels and airfare when they were teased with "a new Diablo" game - only to find out that it was a mobile game, and to end up having no recourse other than to join the incredulous crowd in booing the devs, who had the unenviable job of revealing the deception, on their own stage.

That incident, and the other incidents in 2018 that had such a hand in kicking off the great video game crash of 2018 highlight one of the major issues with Blizzard and the rest of the video game industry: trust, or the lack of it. The concept of "Brand Equity" was coined to describe the ability of highly-trusted brands to monetize that good reputation. But if Brand Equity can exist, then so can "Brand Debt", and if I were to theorize on how much Brand Debt this industry is carrying, I'd have to break out the Lehman references again.

Where Warcraft is concerned, you know when you're dealing with Brand Debt when instead of excitement, people react with fear to what's coming next; when cynicism and toxicity takes over; when conversations about what the next patch will be turn into spiraling contests of who can dream up the most awful scenario. Brand Equity breeds excitement and keeps people coming back for more. Brand Debt breeds disgust, and causes people to disengage.

Which is what I'm doing with regard to Warcraft III: Reforged. This "mistake" gives me an idea as to where they're going with it, and I really don't want to follow. I again hope this company can resurrect this long-suffering franchise, but developments like this don't give me much hope.

p.s. To those of you who are about to argue about how Night Elf Dark Rangers totally make sense in Warcraft III, I see you typing already. Your theories don't address why this angers me, and if you think they will, then you're just as out of touch as Blizzard.
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  #149  
Old 06-25-2019, 08:49 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Don't think this makes it better - the armor may be wrong, but the skin tone is unambiguously Night Elven. That point aside, I don't buy that this was a mistake. I think it's only being pulled now because, once again, somebody caught it.
I'm a bit confused on what the mistake is? I understood the clarification provided on the removal of the image to mean that it shouldn't have been there because dark rangers are Scourge units and that picture was supposed to show night elf units, not that Blizzard considers it a mistake or issue for their to be a night elf dark ranger skin/model in the first place. Which would suggest an even worse problem. At least from the response, I don't think they realize the dark ranger being a night elf was the issue.

Last edited by Insane Guy of Doom; 06-25-2019 at 09:07 PM..
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Old 06-25-2019, 10:27 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
I'm a bit confused on what the mistake is? I understood the clarification provided on the removal of the image to mean that it shouldn't have been there because dark rangers are Scourge units and that picture was supposed to show night elf units, not that Blizzard considers it a mistake or issue for their to be a night elf dark ranger skin/model in the first place. Which would suggest an even worse problem. At least from the response, I don't think they realize the dark ranger being a night elf was the issue.
We can't know what the mistake was for now. Based on the Spanish tweet, the error was supposedly that someone grabbed an image of a neutral unit - but a) I'm not sure that I trust that this just slipped through that and whatever review process they have, and b) as you implied, it being a Night Elf Dark Ranger is the primary issue.
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