Warcraft III: Reforged - Page 6 - Scrolls of Lore Forums

#126 06-14-2019, 03:32 PM
Mutterscrawl World Builder Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Texas, USA Posts: 32,485	y'know what puzzles me? So few units in ANY Rts that I know of use crossbows. __________________ Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises. My Worldbuilding: http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/

#127

07-03-2019, 07:11 AM

Marthen

Eternal

Join Date: Apr 2015

Posts: 4,977

https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...art-ii.316817/

Quote:

Reforged Recap/Feedback Sessions Summary said:

DISCLAIMER: Nothing here is of final end-all word of official word of Blizzard. This is our take on what we know from the experience, bar the NDA. Everything here has already has been publicly said in one way or another, but perhaps not compiled in this way.

General:
This is still on the same engine as the original Warcraft III! Reforged is physically built through the current game as a major upgrade, alongside the graphics. How the base game is played and feels remains the same. Reforged/Classic cross-play; Reforged players can play with classic players simultaneously. This also means both versions generally get the same patches for at least balance and overlying features since. You can switch between Reforged/Classic versions or graphics, though probably not through the ease of one button in-match like in Starcraft. You can swap between old voices or new voices. Expect a beta in ear-___.

Gameplay:
The core gameplay of what makes WC3 unique is not intended to be noticeably altered, especially for the base game and melee. The pathing and collision size should remain the same. However, outside of competitive play, they have the freedom to look decisions differently. Ideas regarding expanding unit selection limits over 12 and more item slots outside of ladder can be on the table.

Content:
Suggested new content such as the infamous 5th race, new campaign missions, and co-op modes have not had statements or announcements tied to them, but again, the team is looking at everything.

Visuals and Art:
Art style - The original intended art style was to go for a more cartoony look, but the team has instead settled on a grittier look closer the spirit of Warcraft III's lore and story themes as opposed to WoW. There's a lot of work to be done still, so making the style more consistent should help solidify the direction to stand on its own over time.
Models - An abundance of feedback for many reforged models has been communicated constructively. It is clearly understood that while many of the models host extravagant detail, more clarity is needed for gameplay purposes. They are also looking at feedback in terms of model resemblance to the original looks. To share a specific example, the new Grunt is agreed to be a great standard while the Footmen should be evaluated under scrutiny quite a bit more. Things like ground textures for buildings and particle effects will be seen in time.
Terrain - The terrain shown at Blizzcon is in a very early state. It's been communicated that it looks flat and lacks volume, and some tiles may lack saturation. They are planning an overhaul of the old terrain tile system to a new one.
UI - The UI shown at Blizzcon was also in a very early state. You will be able to swap between the original UI and new minimalist version, but there could be more changes to that. Modders will be able to fully customize it more than for their custom maps.

Battle.net:
It's been confirmed that Warcraft III will be on the modern Blizzard Battle.net launcher, which would give it much better server infrastructure and also new life from other Blizzard game players. Features like clans, improved hosting and filtering, lobby control, friends, bans/avoid, are all being looked at and the hope is that these are all retained if possible, while also being improved.

Lore:
The story will not be changed, but Blizzard is looking at ways to make the entirety Warcraft lore as a whole more consistent in WC3. The Culling mission already had WoW easter eggs that did not affect much other than there being cool mini-bosses other than Mal'Ganis. And maybe this doesn't only pertain to WoW, as some WC1 and WC2 pieces don't perfectly line up with WC3's. The intention seems to be for WC3's story to remain what it is at heart, while also adding things for consistency and fun that other players in the Warcraft universe can also enjoy. Specifics on the extent of this are still up in the air, but remember that you can always choose to play the classic campaign generally untouched.

Custom Game Compatibility:
Most custom maps should be compatible with reforged. While the aim is for the vast majority of maps to work on reforged Day 1, Blizzard is also looking at ways to maximize the amount of complex or import heavy maps to be transferred over. They are looking at many maps individually and are doing internal testing. Since this is such a momentous task, it would be a collaborative for modders and map makers to continue to find workaround methods with modders and map makers with the developers. Point out the maps that don't work with patches, especially if they haven't seen it yet. Worst comes to worst, few maps will have to be significantly updated or would stay with the classic version, but a revitalized player base and modding tools added for both games still improves the net experience of said custom map.

World Editor and Modding:
It is not a separate new editor and it is not the SC2 editor in WC3! It is strictly the current World Editor upgraded, with the base features of editor going to function as it always has. Blizzard's goal is to keep the editor as accessible as possible while providing the needed efficiency while ridiculously insane features are added. Yes, new natives are on the way, but also expect some other crazy shit. The specifics of this are not confirmed, but the the editor will be updated as one alongside both classic and reforge.

For the artistic side, new modding tools can be used to make Reforged quality models and will be provided by Blizzard for community use.

Other:
Other things like animations, certain voice lines, Chinese censorship/age rating, bots, monetization, and more were discussed, but were were not yet ready to become public information for one reason or another, or were minor points. There's so much more that we can't fit into this article, but if you search around you'll likely see some more.

#128

07-03-2019, 01:19 PM

Lon-ami

Elune

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: Spain

Posts: 12,551

BattleTag: Lonami#2916

I hate Blizzard, but I also want this to succeed, the RTS genre could be brought from the dead if it's good enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marthen

There is a base, it is simply unreachable like in the original rendition. But both the green and the purple attack from there. You can see it here. It's essentially where the Slaugherhouse is in World of Warcraft.

https://youtu.be/J-0urAe-_1k?t=4317

Kinda disappointing to see wall models weren't reworked to allow units to actually climb and fight there. Some kind of cliff-addons would have been great too, there's lot of experiments around with ramps (I even did some myself), but it's hard to overcome the editor's limitations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales

I'm hoping that maybe the naga tech tree might be expanded into a full tree like the other four and that they might be available in multiplayer. It's probably not going to happen, at least not outside mods, since it would require additional rounds of rebalancing. Here's hoping that WC3R has SC2-style mod support so that it will be easier to use.

I would love to see tech trees for the Legion and the Goblins, though. But it's probably not gonna happen outside mods.

The sorts of skins, variants or co-op armies I'd like to see include:

Human Alliance: High Elf/Blood Elf, Stormwind/WC1-era (e.g. clerics, conjurers, catapults, crossbowmen), WC2-era (e.g. naval), other nation-specific
Orcish Horde: Chaos Orc/Fel Orc, WC1-era (e.g. necrolyte, warlock), WC2-era (e.g. naval, death knight, ogre mage), other clan-specific
Undead Scourge: Forsaken, Nerubian Empire
Night Elf Sentinels: Corrupted Ancients (satyr), Highborn

There are some WC3 campaigns that try to remake WC1 and WC2. I'm more interested in replicating the spirit rather than identical mechanics, as those simply aren't fun in modern times. Following the WC3 style seems fine, but naval combat would be entirely new. A re-imagining of WC1 or WC2 could expand the tech trees to a similar breadth as WC3. Units could be re-skinned and re-flavored for different nations and eras.

WC1 didn't have heroes, but its warlocks, necrolytes, conjurers and clerics have spells that in WC3 belonged to heroes. The warlock's summon daemon translates to the pit lord's doom spell, the necrolyte's dark vision and cleric's far seeing translates to the far seer's far sight spell, and summon water elemental is shared between conjurer and archmage. Likewise, the WC2 death knight and mage have six or seven spells each, so they could be split into two or so heroes by WC3 standards.

WC3 archers, priests and sorceresses could be re-skinned as Stormwind's archers, clerics and conjurers. The heroes could include the paladin (e.g. Lothar), archmage (e.g. Khadgar), and firelord (justified as summoned by the conjurers in lore). WC3 necromancers, Stormreaver necrolytes, warlocks, and doomguard could be adapted to the WC1-era Horde. The heroes could include blademaster, farseer, warlord (cut from alpha), and warlock (Archimonde's class); maybe demon heroes like the Pit Lord.

WC2's heroes don't work like WC3 heroes, but could be adapted as such. Gul'dan is a custom warlock hero, Cho'gall and Dentarg are custom ogre mage heroes, Zuljin is a shadow hunter hero, Grom Hellscream is a blademaster hero, Kargath Bladefist is a custom warlord hero, Teron Gorefiend is a death knight hero, Deathwing is a custom black dragon hero. Sir Anduin Lothar and Danath are custom heroes (maybe crusader cut from alpha?), Sir Uther Lightbringer and Turalyon are paladin heroes, Khadgar is an archmage hero, Alleria is an elven ranger hero, Kurdran is a custom dwarf gryphon rider hero.

Rather than naga, I think the way to go could be Illidari. So, naga, plus blood elves, plus draenei. They would share some units with humans (who would get them reskinned back into high elves) and night elves.

Some kind of Demon faction could also work, just mix fel orcs with the few demon units there are around. They would share some units too, with orcs and undead.

Further factions wouldn't be that easy to develop, since there aren't enough resources around. However, it could work if they're willing to make new stuff.

I wrote a W3 second expansion idea some time ago. There, I advanced the plot in an alternate route, with Deathwing and the Old Gods as the villains, and I added two secondary races:

The first would be the Spider Empire, using undead mechanics like the blight and burrowing. They would employ silithids, qiraji, and nerubians. They would share some units with the undead (crypt nerubians).

The second would be the Twilight's Hammer, an army of cultists serving the Black dragonflight, using night elf mechanics like the moving buildings. They would employ goblins, centaurs, elementals, titanic constructs, and faceless ones. They would share some units with the night elves (giants, dryads).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldrius

In Reign of Chaos you can absolutely go there and attack it, it's just not feasible to do so generally. Mal'ganis has his altar of darkness there too. This looks like it's just... off the map. It's not a big deal, it just bugs me.

I think a Naga tech tree would be all right. The actual Naga units are so absurdly overpowered they're ridiculous, though. So they'd need A LOT of balance work.

I definitely want more bold armies and sound sets. Like I hope they add an actual elven swordsman and archer model that aren't just footman and night elven archer remodels. Honestly the Archer & Swordsman are also kinda useless anyway.

They could monetize W3 easily by selling skin packs for the entire race.

For example, W2-esque Horde, replacing jungle trolls with forest trolls, and tauren with ogres. Troll empires, replacing everything in the Horde with trolls and dinosaurs. Silvermoon, with elves replacing humans and dwarves. Undead with a desert mummy theme. They don't even need different stats, just good enough models and animations to make the transition work.

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Last edited by Lon-ami; 07-03-2019 at 01:26 PM..

#129

07-05-2019, 03:04 PM

Triceron

Keeper of the Grove

Join Date: Sep 2009

Posts: 603

What about a Dark Iron/Elementals theme for Humans?

Dark Iron Sorcerer-thane who summons Fire elementals and uses Rain of Fire, Dark Iron Marshals that heal with the light, Flamewaker Overseer that drains mana, banishes and casts Flamestrikes.

Peasant - Miners or Stone Elementals
Footmen -> Brawler
Knight -> Ramriders, Corehounds or Golems
Spellbreaker -> Forgeguard
Dragonhawk -> Firehawk (like Alysrazor)
Priest -> Flamewaker Cauterizer
Sorceress -> Flamewaker Subjugator

Last edited by Triceron; 07-05-2019 at 03:08 PM..

#130

07-05-2019, 07:18 PM

Ethenil

Eternal

Join Date: Sep 2015

Posts: 2,666

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triceron

I like this a lot! I hadn't given thought to faction skins, I'd really love this.

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#131 08-05-2019, 04:59 AM
Rhllor Arch-Druid Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 1,036	new models https://imgur.com/a/j7lXLY0 __________________

#132 08-05-2019, 11:22 AM
Mutterscrawl World Builder Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Texas, USA Posts: 32,485	Proportions feel weird __________________ Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises. My Worldbuilding: http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/

#133

08-11-2019, 08:45 PM

HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldrius

I don't think I'm going to take the time to siphon through all that to find people's pertinent opinions. I mean fair enough, I'm sure there's good points in here that are worth considering, but I also highly doubt it's anything new anyway. Yeah, the 1998 RTS game is logically inconsistent. Sure.

But as far as doing what it sets out to do, stringing together exciting game play with fun characters and a fun plot it does it's job. It succeeds. I don't dislike StarCraft 2's campaign because of the inconsistencies or plot holes or whatever, though. The fact that they completely, directly retconned the story I blatantly already played through (for... dubious reasons) bugs me, but it's more just... SC2 isn't any fun for me.

I guess if I objectively compare them, and could objectively try to find a reason I prefer SC1 to SC2 it'd mainly be I just think SC1 is more fun and the plot is more substantial, it's more earnest and sincere. I think all these things are true.

Anyway, to try and guide the conversation back to WC3. I really would like to see them improve the item table. The Wand of Negation is so much worse than the Staff of Negation, Frozen Throne also has lots of cool unique items like Gul'dan's Shadow Orb and the Ring of the Archmage, and I think that's something Reign of Chaos would really benefit from.

Something like making Frostmourne an item and it getting more and more powerful the more Arthas kills things. Like every 50 kills is a +1 to his attack power or something. That's a little weird because it's not an engrossing side-mission like what exists in tFT, though. So maybe that wouldn't work as well.

I can't wrap my mind around critiquing StarCraft's story for not lining up with it's manual. It's a truly bizarre reversal.

The manual is irrelevant. It's tertiary material, secondary at most. The manual is not a story, it's trivia. The game is the primary source.

You can go into StarCraft without having read the manual and you'll be fine. I didn't read the manual until well after I'd played through the campaigns. I bet the number of people who read the manual at any point is quite small proportional to the number that played the campaign.

For the purposes of determining whether the campaigns in StarCraft and Brood War are any good, the manual is functionally irrelevant.

If the game's story and the manual don't line up well, then that's a problem with the manual. Not the game.

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#134

08-19-2019, 01:12 PM

Trickster

Elune

Join Date: Jul 2013

Location: Trickster's Mighty Keep

Posts: 7,368

Id like it if they added the Ashbringer comics storyline as an additionnal bonus campaign. Was a good story and following Alexandros and Darion around would be a good bridge between Warcraft III Reforged and WoW Classic. Could have like one chapter with Alexandros and one with Darion.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Brojar

i literally just shit my pants with rage

#135

08-19-2019, 01:40 PM

Lon-ami

Elune

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: Spain

Posts: 12,551

BattleTag: Lonami#2916

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhllor

new models
https://imgur.com/a/j7lXLY0

Well, those are pretty badass if you ask me.

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#136

09-26-2019, 11:13 PM

Aldrius

Site Staff - Moderator

Join Date: Sep 2006

Posts: 10,025

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trickster

A couple of campaigns bridging WC3-WoW would be fun. I dunno if that storyline specifically would necessarily work (it'd have to be adapted pretty heavily unless they just did it Rexxar-style).

I'm overly bothered by Tyrande still having dark green hair. The blue is so much nicer. Ugh.

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#137

10-12-2019, 11:30 PM

Triceron

Keeper of the Grove

Join Date: Sep 2009

Posts: 603

TBH I've always pushed for post-WC3 campaigns for a while now.

I'd really love them to do it, since there's plenty of material to work with, plenty of characters to introduce and many different angles to take.

My personal vision for the campaigns would be

Humans
- Witness the Silver Hand splitting off to become the Scarlet Crusade
- The Ashbringer saga
- The 4 Horsemen, pre-and-post corruption
- Introduce major characters such as Mograine, Fordring and Dathrohan
- Climax is the downfall of the Ashbringer, creation of 4 Horsemen and showing Balnazzar usurp Dathrohan; the beginning of the fall of the Scarlet Crusade
- Concludes with the Argent Dawn commenting on the SC from a distance

Orcs
- Rend and Maim leading the Dark Horde after Thrall leaves EK
- Witness how they deal with the growing Scourge
- Their bloodlust recedes after Mannoroth is defeated in Kalimdor, losing power and being unable to deal with the Scourge
- Follow their journey southwards back towards the Spire
- Conflict with the Dark Irons, resulting in the death of Maim
- Alliance with the Black Dragonflight
- Climax with fighting the Dark Irons and reclaiming Upper BRS
- Concludes with full servitude under Nefarian

Night Elves
- Witness the creation of Teldrassil
- Introduce Fandral Staghelm, Eranikus and other Green Dragons
- The Dragonflights refuse to bless Teldrassil
- Malfurion is lured into the Emerald Nightmare
- Watch the 4 Nightmare Dragons be corrupted
- Climax with Malfurion being trapped in the Nightmare
- Concludes with Fandral usurping leadership and establishing Darnassus

Undead
- Follow the San'layn raised after the battle of Icecrown
- Witness Lana'thel fall to Arthas and be raised as the Blood Queen
- The three Blood Princes are tasked with building the armies
- Tal'darim is sent to Azjol Nerub, seeking ancient Nerubian Relics
- Keleseth is sent to bring the Vrykul into the Scourge
- Taldarim is sent to set up a base of operations in Borean Tundra
- Show Icecrown Citadel being rebuilt in Saronite
- Concludes with the growing forces of the Lich King displayed in full

#138

10-13-2019, 12:30 AM

ARM3481

Loremaster

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 9,561

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triceron

Orcs
- Rend and Maim leading the Dark Horde after Thrall leaves EK
- Witness how they deal with the growing Scourge
- Their bloodlust recedes after Mannoroth is defeated in Kalimdor, losing power and being unable to deal with the Scourge
- Follow their journey southwards back towards the Spire
- Conflict with the Dark Irons, resulting in the death of Maim
- Alliance with the Black Dragonflight
- Climax with fighting the Dark Irons and reclaiming Upper BRS
- Concludes with full servitude under Nefarian

Bit of a continuity problem issue, though; it's established canon that the Dark Horde was already entrenched in Blackrock Mountain under the Blackhand brothers at the time of Beyond the Dark Portal and Day of the Dragon, well before the rise of the Scourge and the Third War.

Those orcs up in Lordaeron raiding villages, sacrificing prisoners and later fighting the Scourge seemed like some weird, isolated group of demon-worshiping orcs not in league with Thrall's Horde or the Dark Horde. Being outright demon worshipers with their own portal for communing with the Burning Legion while spouting Legion rhetoric about burning the world almost makes them seem more like an unaffiliated, old Horde fragment that became demon cultists akin to the Burning Blade sects back in Vanilla-era Kalimdor.

#139

10-13-2019, 01:00 AM

Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Posts: 32,485

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARM3481

This is Warcraft, when have we ever let canon get in the way of a cool idea?

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#140

10-13-2019, 01:02 AM

Triceron

Keeper of the Grove

Join Date: Sep 2009

Posts: 603

Well the continuity problem extends even further than that....

Even with BOTD novel in place, Rend and Maim show up in The Frozen Throne... as Chaos Orcs in the Black Citadel. These could just be coincidentally named Orcs; but it's more likely that continuity throughout the years for these characters was completely out of whack, up until WoW gave the latest canon.

I'd say Chronicles is the latest definitive stamp for their lore, and they never really specify what the timeline is for the whereabouts of Rend and Maim and the Blackrock. I think if they were going to bring some things back into line with WoW, they may as well explain it fully with a campaign showing how the raiding Blackrock clan in Lordaeron connects to the Dark Horde in Blackrock Spire, and not just treat it as multiple Blackrock Clans under multiple leaderships spread throughout the land.

#141 10-13-2019, 09:39 AM
Krainz Troubadour Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Brazil Posts: 2,512 BattleTag: Krainz#1972	😍😍😍 __________________

#142 10-14-2019, 06:55 AM
Rhllor Arch-Druid Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 1,036	I want an exclusive thalassian army with bloodmage, ranger-general, anasterian and high elf archmage as heroes anasterian! __________________ Last edited by Rhllor; 10-14-2019 at 07:37 AM..

#143 10-14-2019, 07:18 PM
Krainz Troubadour Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Brazil Posts: 2,512 BattleTag: Krainz#1972	So the different paladins have unique models? https://www.wowhead.com/news=295648/...ren-the-orcsla I wonder if it will be the same for Death Knights __________________

#144 10-15-2019, 12:10 AM
Mutterscrawl World Builder Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Texas, USA Posts: 32,485	The Ashbringer easter egg is neat but it's odd they did it to multiple dudes __________________ Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises. My Worldbuilding: http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/

#145

10-15-2019, 09:52 AM

Nazja

Trade Baroness - Moderator

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Krainz

So the different paladins have unique models?

https://www.wowhead.com/news=295648/...ren-the-orcsla

I wonder if it will be the same for Death Knights

Were there any DKs besides Arthas in the campaign?

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#146

10-15-2019, 09:58 AM

Krainz

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Join Date: Aug 2014

Location: Brazil

Posts: 2,512

BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Reforged makes me sad about WoW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazja

Were there any DKs besides Arthas in the campaign?

I was thinking on the random names for the DK hero

Quote:

Hero Names: Lord Nightsorrow, Lord Soulrender, Lord Dethstorm, Lord Maldazzar, Lord Darkhallow, Lord Lightstalker, Baron Bloodbane, Baron Felblade, Duke Dreadmoore, Duke Ragereaver, Baron Frostfel, Lord Darkscythe, Duke Wintermaul, Baron Perenolde, Baron Morte

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#147

10-15-2019, 10:50 AM

Nazja

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Krainz

I was thinking on the random names for the DK hero

But aren't the unique paladin models only for the canon paladins who actually appear in the campaign?

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#148

10-15-2019, 11:50 AM

Royalpimp

Eternal

Join Date: Jul 2010

Posts: 4,569

Makes some sense that they'd make the different paladins distinguishable from one another, they tried to do the same in the old days too, with different hair colors/some different armor color(although I only remember Uther having different looking armor). Now the possibiities are a lot more vast.

Also, I like that they're making the generic melee heroes have different models from the campaign characters. Didn't expect it at all, or even want it, but it gives the game more skins/models to play with so it's all good.

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Originally Posted by Fojar

And Lordaeron

ffs I'm the only one who cares aren't I

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion

And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.

#149

10-16-2019, 07:31 AM

Frostwolf

Elune

Join Date: Apr 2011

Posts: 7,441

Reforged looks like a Chinese mobile game. I really hate the art style. They said they were inspired by the MoP cinematic and that's my least favorite cinematic from a design standpoint. The human and the pandaren (talking about the MoP cinematic) look alright, but the orc looks dumb and with odd proportions.

It's very unfortunate they took the MoP orc proportions as the basis for the Reforged orcs. As it is, Reforged is shaping up to be a disappointment. At least I'll always have the original WC3.

Last edited by Frostwolf; 10-16-2019 at 07:41 AM..

#150

10-18-2019, 03:30 AM

Aldrius

Site Staff - Moderator

Join Date: Sep 2006

Posts: 10,025

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazja

But aren't the unique paladin models only for the canon paladins who actually appear in the campaign?

Yeah, they seem to mostly be for the paladins who pop up in "King Arthas". They've mentioned that the WC3 melee campaign is going to allow you to choose different skins for heroes (i.e. Jaina can be your Archmae hero in melee matches).

Anasterian replacing the Archmage hero (I'm guessing) in the Path of the Damned is so awesome. I'm loving them fixing these sensible continuity errors, or things that were sort of half-assed due to production constraints.

Quote:

Reforged looks like a Chinese mobile game. I really hate the art style. They said they were inspired by the MoP cinematic and that's my least favorite cinematic from a design standpoint. The human and the pandaren (talking about the MoP cinematic) look alright, but the orc looks dumb and with odd proportions.

I don't know how I feel about the overall art style. Some of the models work for me. But a lot of the cinematic-based characters just almost literally look like the cinematic takes. (Archimonde & Mannoroth for example)

But there's something kind of limited about it. They're going for more realistic proportions but that's... weird.

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