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  #51  
Old 02-21-2010, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Altrantis View Post
Yeah, but that fun is part of lore. They can be humans as long as they wish in human form unless they are in stress.

I read it somewhere where someone where someone explained the worgen quests methinks, from either blizzcon or that event in Russia.
Yup, that's what makes these worgen unique, they were given a special potion that allows them to retain their human intelligence and human form.
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Old 02-21-2010, 08:22 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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Yeah, but that fun is part of lore. They can be humans as long as they wish in human form unless they are in stress.

I read it somewhere where someone where someone explained the worgen quests methinks, from either blizzcon or that event in Russia.
So what is the difference between that and a night elf druid in bear form? "Human" is already a playable race in WoW.
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Old 02-21-2010, 10:24 PM
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So what is the difference between that and a night elf druid in bear form? "Human" is already a playable race in WoW.
These are more than humans. The same way they retain their human inteligence in worgen form, they retain their savagery in human form, and have to fight it. As for the druids, well, mostly because they are a class instead, and because they worked to gain those skills, it's not something that happened to them, and there's no extra problems about being them, unlike worgen who suffer complications.

The difference between druids and worgen is like say, the difference between someone who was born with the ability to calculate very quickly or gained it after being sick, vs someone who adquited that ability through hard work.
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Old 02-21-2010, 11:14 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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These are more than humans. The same way they retain their human inteligence in worgen form, they retain their savagery in human form, and have to fight it. As for the druids, well, mostly because they are a class instead, and because they worked to gain those skills, it's not something that happened to them, and there's no extra problems about being them, unlike worgen who suffer complications.

The difference between druids and worgen is like say, the difference between someone who was born with the ability to calculate very quickly or gained it after being sick, vs someone who adquited that ability through hard work.
They are more than humans like you said. They are worgen. It is like saying a zombie is really just a pale, undead human.
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Old 02-22-2010, 09:31 AM
Altrantis Altrantis is offline

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They are more than humans like you said. They are worgen. It is like saying a zombie is really just a pale, undead human.
But they're still humans to a large extent. *Optimus voice* There's more than reachs the eye. Anyways, as I argued before, they're humans in the same blood elves are elves. Not only night elves are elves, high and blood elves also are. Not only humans are humans, the worgen also are. They are humans with... special attributes.
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Old 02-22-2010, 12:20 PM
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But they're still humans to a large extent. *Optimus voice* There's more than reachs the eye. Anyways, as I argued before, they're humans in the same blood elves are elves. Not only night elves are elves, high and blood elves also are. Not only humans are humans, the worgen also are. They are humans with... special attributes.
They are cursed humans, which means their still human, just cursed....
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Old 02-22-2010, 08:49 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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They are werewolves really.

So you are saying worgen are a subspecies of human?
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Old 02-22-2010, 08:56 PM
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They are werewolves really.

So you are saying worgen are a subspecies of human?
you could say there's two species in one body since it's shapeshifting
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Old 02-22-2010, 09:06 PM
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They are werewolves really.

So you are saying worgen are a subspecies of human?
Well, yes, exept it's not really a species, it's an odd thing, it's hard to chose where to cut the pie, considering it a species is to assume it's a natural process, but it's unlikelly they'll make it so worgen's kids are not worgen too. But a subtype of humans? yes.
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Old 02-22-2010, 09:12 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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you could say there's two species in one body since it's shapeshifting
Uhhh...

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Well, yes, exept it's not really a species, it's an odd thing, it's hard to chose where to cut the pie, considering it a species is to assume it's a natural process, but it's unlikelly they'll make it so worgen's kids are not worgen too. But a subtype of humans? yes.
"Human" is a subtype. You can't have a subtype of a subtype.
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Old 02-22-2010, 09:24 PM
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First of all, since when was "human" a subtype? Second of all, since when could you not have a subtype of a subtype?
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Old 02-22-2010, 09:50 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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First of all, since when was "human" a subtype? Second of all, since when could you not have a subtype of a subtype?
Since the start of the RPG many moons ago?

Because there are "types" and "subtypes". Not "subsubtypes". Are there "subsubspecies"?

I thought I was the one that didn't know anything about PnP?

Anyways, that is besides the point. You can't have two "species in one" unless there just hasn't been an official name created yet for that new species. Then you could say Human + <name>. We do have a name for them though, worgen. So they are worgen.
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Old 02-23-2010, 05:29 AM
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Since the start of the RPG many moons ago?

Because there are "types" and "subtypes". Not "subsubtypes". Are there "subsubspecies"?

I thought I was the one that didn't know anything about PnP?

Anyways, that is besides the point. You can't have two "species in one" unless there just hasn't been an official name created yet for that new species. Then you could say Human + <name>. We do have a name for them though, worgen. So they are worgen.
Why it can't it's shape shifting when they in worgen mode their worgen when their in human mode their human, same thing with dragons when they turn into human/elf/gnome they are human/elf/gnome
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Old 02-23-2010, 05:36 AM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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Why it can't it's shape shifting when they in worgen mode their worgen when their in human mode their human, same thing with dragons when they turn into human/elf/gnome they are human/elf/gnome
Because "humans" can't do that. Only "worgen", which have a name called "worgen". When dragons do that it is just a disguise. They aren't really a human/elf/gnome. Dragons can even turn into trees but it doesn't mean they are really a tree now.
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Old 02-23-2010, 05:57 AM
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Because "humans" can't do that. Only "worgen", which have a name called "worgen". When dragons do that it is just a disguise. They aren't really a human/elf/gnome. Dragons can even turn into trees but it doesn't mean they are really a tree now.
But if a human gets the curse he can also turn into worgen, it's shapeshifting, for all intents and purposes dragons become humans, the fact they can get stuck in it(Krasus), proves that's shapeshifting and not just a magical disguise, also i didn't know they could turn into trees where does this info comes from
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Old 02-23-2010, 06:12 AM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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But if a human gets the curse he can also turn into worgen, it's shapeshifting, for all intents and purposes dragons become humans, the fact they can get stuck in it(Krasus), proves that's shapeshifting and not just a magical disguise, also i didn't know they could turn into trees where does this info comes from
The curse made them into worgen though. It isn't just a shapeshifting thing. They are like werewolves. Dragons don't become humans. They look like humans. Just because he got stuck looking like e high elf doesn't mean he really was a high elf. His biology didn't change. There isn't anything that says dragons can have children of the race they are pretending to be. In WotA, a red dragon is pretending to be some tree.
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Old 02-23-2010, 06:30 AM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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The curse made them into worgen though. It isn't just a shapeshifting thing. They are like werewolves. Dragons don't become humans. They look like humans. Just because he got stuck looking like e high elf doesn't mean he really was a high elf. His biology didn't change. There isn't anything that says dragons can have children of the race they are pretending to be. In WotA, a red dragon is pretending to be some tree.
but they can't still turn back into human so they are still human and they can turn into worgen so their also worgen, and how do you know their biology doesn't change, it has to if dragons are to fit the human size, and is there any proof they can't have children with mortals(as dragons are they would feel absolutely disgusted if it did happen), and he got stuck into a high elf form proves it's not just an Optical Illusion
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:41 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Considering Kalec, in his half-elven form, became enthralled with Anveena in a human form, I would say their biology does change quite a bit depending on what form they are in, yes.

...Unless it is common for big lizards to fall inlove with young girls. I'm sure there's a few japaneese manga franchises out there where that is not unheard of.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:51 AM
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Considering Kalec, in his half-elven form, became enthralled with Anveena in a human form, I would say their biology does change quite a bit depending on what form they are in, yes.

...Unless it is common for big lizards to fall inlove with young girls. I'm sure there's a few japaneese manga franchises out there where that is not unheard of.
few? i tought that was default setting ><

edit:
remember, we're talking about a universe wehre one of lizzard brothers wants to rape his two lizzard sisters.
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Old 02-23-2010, 01:06 PM
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Rolandius, my dear, life isn't RPG. "Human" is a specific species of sentient being living on Earth or many of its fictional counterparts. Being a Worgen is kind of ficked up, since there's magic involved. They're cursed humans, if you ask me. Since they maintain the human mind and memory, they're still humans, but have been applied a curse, think of it as a debuff you can't dispel. This curse makes them appear physically as a half-wolf, half-man and behave like that.
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Old 02-23-2010, 06:33 PM
Altrantis Altrantis is offline

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"Human" is a subtype. You can't have a subtype of a subtype.
You take names too seriously. Waaaaay too seriously, I've been noticeing that on your posts. A name is just how you call something so that others can know what you mean, but if that was made in a confusing way it can be redone, and sometimes names are used for several different things. Reality dictates how we order names, not names how reality is. You aren't Rolandius because your name is Rolandius, you are just you and you have that name to be identified from say, Altrantis, but if there was annother being also called Rolandius, for the sake of understanding, naming rules would have to change, you can't just kill the other Rolandius for it to fit the old naming system.

And yes, you can have a subtype of a subtype. In biology, subspecies don't exist, yet they're used sometimes. Say, Homo sapiens is a species, but we know now that there were several species within it, so there are subspecies of homo sapiens, of which we are homo sapiens sapiens, a trinomial name, which goes against the rules, but was nessesary since the rules were broken when the name was created under a false assumpsion. Same goes for subtype, if you have one subtype and sudently there's a split in that subtype, you got a subtype of a subtype.

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Rolandius, my dear, life isn't RPG. "Human" is a specific species of sentient being living on Earth or many of its fictional counterparts. Being a Worgen is kind of ficked up, since there's magic involved. They're cursed humans, if you ask me. Since they maintain the human mind and memory, they're still humans, but have been applied a curse, think of it as a debuff you can't dispel. This curse makes them appear physically as a half-wolf, half-man and behave like that.
I agree with this, but assuming worgen have little worgies, this would be a new type of humans, as the condition is permanent.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:28 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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And yes, you can have a subtype of a subtype. In biology, subspecies don't exist, yet they're used sometimes. Say, Homo sapiens is a species, but we know now that there were several species within it, so there are subspecies of homo sapiens, of which we are homo sapiens sapiens, a trinomial name, which goes against the rules, but was nessesary since the rules were broken when the name was created under a false assumpsion. Same goes for subtype, if you have one subtype and sudently there's a split in that subtype, you got a subtype of a subtype.

I agree with this, but assuming worgen have little worgies, this would be a new type of humans, as the condition is permanent.
You can't have a subtype of a subtype. What are you talking about? There are types and subtypes. Not subtypes of a subtype. One of them has to eventually be pushed out. Show me in the RPG where it says there are subtypes of subtypes and I will agree with you.

Subspecies exists in Biology. Species don't have several species in them. Species have subspecies in them. If a species had several species in them then they would be their own species. Home sapiens sapiens is real. And you don't split a subtype and call it a subtype of a subtype. Either it hasn't changed enough to be another subtype or it has changed enough to be a different subtype. There is no subtype of a subtype.

Worgen are worgen. Especially when humans may not be the only race to have turned into worgen. Not everything stays the same. Or else there would be no demons, undead, etc. Or using a real world example, there would not be the variety of species and subspecies that exist because people would just say "It didn't really change that much, it is still sort of what it was previous." Multiply that excuse a few times over and you will be saying that a Hummingbird is just another name for a T-Rex.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:54 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Subspecies exists in Biology. Species don't have several species in them. Species have subspecies in them. If a species had several species in them then they would be their own species. Home sapiens sapiens is real. And you don't split a subtype and call it a subtype of a subtype. Either it hasn't changed enough to be another subtype or it has changed enough to be a different subtype. There is no subtype of a subtype.

Worgen are worgen. Especially when humans may not be the only race to have turned into worgen. Not everything stays the same. Or else there would be no demons, undead, etc. Or using a real world example, there would not be the variety of species and subspecies that exist because people would just say "It didn't really change that much, it is still sort of what it was previous." Multiply that excuse a few times over and you will be saying that a Hummingbird is just another name for a T-Rex.
I have to agree with you there are sub-species in biology, however a sub-type of a subtype doesn't exist it automaticly becomes a subtype without more divisions

Worgens are worgen but when their human their are human, however there was no evolution or change here, they only gained the power of shapeshifting into something with a different biology, like a dragon goes into mortal form, or a druid goes into it's many forms, for all intents and purposes, when a druid turns into a bear he becomes a bear with mind of the druid, the druid doesn't turn into another race called druid he just gains the ability to change it's biology into the biology of another creature, the same with the worgen they just gain the power to change into another species and back, it doesn't make them a new species, it just gives them the ability to alternate between two species, it doesn't make them a new one.
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:03 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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I have to agree with you there are sub-species in biology, however a sub-type of a subtype doesn't exist it automaticly becomes a subtype without more divisions

Worgens are worgen but when their human their are human, however there was no evolution or change here, they only gained the power of shapeshifting into something with a different biology, like a dragon goes into mortal form, or a druid goes into it's many forms, for all intents and purposes, when a druid turns into a bear he becomes a bear with mind of the druid, the druid doesn't turn into another race called druid he just gains the ability to change it's biology into the biology of another creature, the same with the worgen they just gain the power to change into another species and back, it doesn't make them a new species, it just gives them the ability to alternate between two species, it doesn't make them a new one.
Yes. Further divisions get created. But in the RPG, you can't have all the subtypes that we have in the real world. They have Types and Subtypes only. "Human" is a subtype. They have, like rules, so you can't have some crazy creature that has 50 subtypes of which all are a name of a race.

Now with druids, they do change but have you noticed they don't exactly match the animal? They don't actually "become" that creature. It is like a similar resemblance. I haven't seen anything that says a druid can turn into the animal form and go create a family of said animal. The same thing with dragons. They have the ability to take another form, but it doesn't say they are now that race and can go have a family. Just because a dragon in another form "likes" another creature just means they have feelings and not that they are automatically that race and can have a family. I don't think the titans gave them that "power".

They are a new "species". A human cannot do what they do. Just like if a human and elf had children, their children are "half-elves". "Half-elf" is a recognized new thing. These worgen are just werewolves who retained their intelligence. If not, wouldn't the "new worgen race" just be a druid class for humans?
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:08 PM
Altrantis Altrantis is offline

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You can't have a subtype of a subtype. What are you talking about? There are types and subtypes. Not subtypes of a subtype. One of them has to eventually be pushed out. Show me in the RPG where it says there are subtypes of subtypes and I will agree with you.

Subspecies exists in Biology. Species don't have several species in them. Species have subspecies in them. If a species had several species in them then they would be their own species. Home sapiens sapiens is real. And you don't split a subtype and call it a subtype of a subtype. Either it hasn't changed enough to be another subtype or it has changed enough to be a different subtype. There is no subtype of a subtype.

Worgen are worgen. Especially when humans may not be the only race to have turned into worgen. Not everything stays the same. Or else there would be no demons, undead, etc. Or using a real world example, there would not be the variety of species and subspecies that exist because people would just say "It didn't really change that much, it is still sort of what it was previous." Multiply that excuse a few times over and you will be saying that a Hummingbird is just another name for a T-Rex.
Subspecies in biology are the result of a mistake. Members of a subspecies are unable to reproduce with members of the other subspecies. That makes them different species, the reason they are called subspecies is because it was assumed before that that they were only one species or only one of the species was known. Trinomial names break the rule of biology names, they only exist because of the nessesity. Should read the Lynnean naming system.

BTW, in the first paragraph, that's exactly what I'm talking about. You take names way too seriously. Words do not dictate reality.

Also, now human stopped being a subtype and became a type if we want to follow your logic. It's not on the RPG? TOO BAD! The RPG is older than Cataclysm, boo hoo, things changed.

Also, note that we're talking of this breed of worgen. They may have in common the fact that they are worgen with non human worgen, but they also are humans. What are they? Both really, take it like a halfbreed, it's easier. Worgen are to humans about the same half elves are: Partly human, exept for all intends and purposes, they are full human when they are in human form.

problem with worgen is they mix toguether lots of things for their classification, but Gilineas worgen are human, a sub cathegory of human. (Is ok subcathegory? Or does that mean they're married to rhonin in the RPG?)
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