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  #76  
Old 02-23-2010, 09:16 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Originally Posted by Rolandius View Post
Now with druids, they do change but have you noticed they don't exactly match the animal? They don't actually "become" that creature. It is like a similar resemblance. I haven't seen anything that says a druid can turn into the animal form and go create a family of said animal. The same thing with dragons. They have the ability to take another form, but it doesn't say they are now that race and can go have a family. Just because a dragon in another form "likes" another creature just means they have feelings and not that they are automatically that race and can have a family. I don't think the titans gave them that "power".

They are a new "species". A human cannot do what they do. Just like if a human and elf had children, their children are "half-elves". "Half-elf" is a recognized new thing. These worgen are just werewolves who retained their intelligence. If not, wouldn't the "new worgen race" just be a druid class for humans?
They keep insignificant parts we're not aware if that's done consciously or on purpose to be recognised from animals, there are also no confirmation they can't go ahead and mate with beings of their shape-shifted, however we might consider that genitals would be counter-productive to add into a shapeshifting spell, but for all intents and purposes(with a few exceptions) they change species into another, but the effect of worgencurse+human does not equal new species, they gain the power to alternate between 2 forms like a druid does the ability to change between two different species does not equal a new species, but is a being that is able to change betwen trought 2 species trough magic, remember that the worgen was forced and they don't have much control of their human form under stress, so while it can be considered a new cultural race it cannot be considered a new species, also half elves were born while, the worgen was inflicted.
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:18 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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Subspecies in biology are the result of a mistake. Members of a subspecies are unable to reproduce with members of the other subspecies. That makes them different species, the reason they are called subspecies is because it was assumed before that that they were only one species or only one of the species was known. Trinomial names break the rule of biology names, they only exist because of the nessesity. Should read the Lynnean naming system.

BTW, in the first paragraph, that's exactly what I'm talking about. You take names way too seriously. Words do not dictate reality.

Also, now human stopped being a subtype and became a type if we want to follow your logic. It's not on the RPG? TOO BAD! The RPG is older than Cataclysm, boo hoo, things changed.

Also, note that we're talking of this breed of worgen. They may have in common the fact that they are worgen with non human worgen, but they also are humans. What are they? Both really, take it like a halfbreed, it's easier. Worgen are to humans about the same half elves are: Partly human, exept for all intends and purposes, they are full human when they are in human form.

problem with worgen is they mix toguether lots of things for their classification, but Gilineas worgen are human, a sub cathegory of human. (Is ok subcathegory? Or does that mean they're married to rhonin in the RPG?)
You know they do update the system right? So you are saying Homo sapiens sapiens is wrong? Subspecies do exist. They are not different species or else they wouldn't be called subspecies. The mistakes made are with the creatures. Sometimes a creature will be moved to another rank after more discussion or some new into. That doesn't mean the term subspecies was wrong.

Human is not a type. Humanoid is a type. Elemental is a type. The RPG is older but where in Cataclysm does it say forget the RPG stuff? No where. Cataclysm in fact has a race called.... Worgen. Do you see human in that word anywhere?

You do know half-breeds are their own thing in Warcraft right? There is such a thing as half-elf, half-orc, etc.

All you have to do is go check out what Blizzard says the two new races in Cataclysm will be. I am pretty sure it says Goblin and Worgen.

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They keep insignificant parts we're not aware if that's done consciously or on purpose to be recognised from animals, there are also no confirmation they can't go ahead and mate with beings of their shape-shifted, however we might consider that genitals would be counter-productive to add into a shapeshifting spell, but for all intents and purposes(with a few exceptions) they change species into another, but the effect of worgencurse+human does not equal new species, they gain the power to alternate between 2 forms like a druid does the ability to change between two different species does not equal a new species, but is a being that is able to change betwen trought 2 species trough magic, remember that the worgen was forced and they don't have much control of their human form under stress, so while it can be considered a new cultural race it cannot be considered a new species, also half elves were born while, the worgen was inflicted.
You don't have to be "born" to be a new creature though. You know that. Some creatures are cursed, some are born, some are created, etc.

According to what you are saying, the whole new worgen race is really at the core just a druid class for humans.
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  #78  
Old 02-23-2010, 09:24 PM
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You know they do update the system right? So you are saying Homo sapiens sapiens is wrong? Subspecies do exist. They are not different species or else they wouldn't be called subspecies. The mistakes made are with the creatures. Sometimes a creature will be moved to another rank after more discussion or some new into. That doesn't mean the term subspecies was wrong.

Human is not a type. Humanoid is a type. Elemental is a type. The RPG is older but where in Cataclysm does it say forget the RPG stuff? No where. Cataclysm in fact has a race called.... Worgen. Do you see human in that word anywhere?

You do know half-breeds are their own thing in Warcraft right? There is such a thing as half-elf, half-orc, etc.

All you have to do is go check out what Blizzard says the two new races in Cataclysm will be. I am pretty sure it says Goblin and Worgen.
We're not talking about races here but species and there's already proof that race is more of a cultural thing that biological.

Half races are borne, worgen and undead are inflictions, also "blizzard types" is badly used by blizzard themselves(except in dragonkin)
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You don't have to be "born" to be a new creature though. You know that. Some creatures are cursed, some are born, some are created, etc.

According to what you are saying, the whole new worgen race is really at the core just a druid class for humans.
but you have to be a new species, stop using loose definitions in fantasy when were talking about species

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  #79  
Old 02-23-2010, 09:26 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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We're not talking about races here but species and there's already proof that race is more of a cultural thing that biological.

Half races are borne, worgen and undead are inflictions, also "blizzard types" is badly used by blizzard themselves(except in dragonkin)
Yes Blizzard types are sometimes mixed up, but that is with types. Not subtypes. Humanoid, Dragonkin, etc. Not Human, Elf, etc.

It doesn't matter if it is because of being born, a curse, an affliction, etc. There are a lot of ways for a new creature to pop up.
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:27 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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but you have to be a new species, stop using loose definitions in fantasy when were talking about species
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  #81  
Old 02-23-2010, 09:29 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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Missed that part.

Okay my response is stop making up definitions when we already have one?
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:33 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Missed that part.

Okay my response is stop making up definitions when we already have one?
we have definitions for racial conditions, but the same doesn't apply for taxonomy.
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  #83  
Old 02-23-2010, 09:50 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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we have definitions for racial conditions, but the same doesn't apply for taxonomy.
Species is used for race a lot of times.
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  #84  
Old 02-23-2010, 09:52 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Species is used for race a lot of times.
but there are times where it doesn't work, like the differences between human and forsaken, and blood elf and high elf, and in this case human worgen and normal human
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  #85  
Old 02-23-2010, 10:01 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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but there are times where it doesn't work, like the differences between human and forsaken, and blood elf and high elf, and in this case human worgen and normal human
Worgen are already discussed about though. Like the Pyrewood NPCs who are humans during the day and worgen at night.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:33 PM
Altrantis Altrantis is offline

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You know they do update the system right? So you are saying Homo sapiens sapiens is wrong? Subspecies do exist. They are not different species or else they wouldn't be called subspecies. The mistakes made are with the creatures. Sometimes a creature will be moved to another rank after more discussion or some new into. That doesn't mean the term subspecies was wrong.

Human is not a type. Humanoid is a type. Elemental is a type. The RPG is older but where in Cataclysm does it say forget the RPG stuff? No where. Cataclysm in fact has a race called.... Worgen. Do you see human in that word anywhere?

You do know half-breeds are their own thing in Warcraft right? There is such a thing as half-elf, half-orc, etc.

All you have to do is go check out what Blizzard says the two new races in Cataclysm will be. I am pretty sure it says Goblin and Worgen.
I should really stop arguing semantics with you, and about biology. Anyways, this is all about I used the word subtype and you jumped on the RPG classification. I meant it somply as there's several types of humans now like there's several types of elves. Subcathegory would have been fine but I thought of annother word for it. You are just too stubborn about lenguage.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:43 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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I should really stop arguing semantics with you, and about biology. Anyways, this is all about I used the word subtype and you jumped on the RPG classification. I meant it somply as there's several types of humans now like there's several types of elves. Subcathegory would have been fine but I thought of annother word for it. You are just too stubborn about lenguage.
That is why 30 posts back I asked "So worgen are like a subspecies of humans"? I am not stubborn about language, I was just going by what "subtype" means in the Warcraft universe. Like how "bones" can mean different things. One person could think you are talking about actual bones of creatures, while another person is thinking about dice. So when you said "subtype", I though of subtype as found in Warcraft. Those "several types of elves" are called subspecies.

Don't forget, "human" could be used as both the name of a species and of a subspecies. "Type" and "subtype" are different things from species and subspecies. For instance, "humanoid" is a type and "aquatic" is a subtype. Subtypes just happen to have some race names in them. "Aquatic" though isn't connected with species and subspecies – unless there is an actual race called "aquatic <name>" or "<name> aquatic" in the future.
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  #88  
Old 02-24-2010, 07:49 AM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Don't forget, "human" could be used as both the name of a species and of a subspecies. "Type" and "subtype" are different things from species and subspecies. For instance, "humanoid" is a type and "aquatic" is a subtype. Subtypes just happen to have some race names in them. "Aquatic" though isn't connected with species and subspecies – unless there is an actual race called "aquatic <name>" or "<name> aquatic" in the future.
Where do Gilgoblins fit in this aquatic and humanoid types? logic failure

This is why i created my own classification system for my story
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Old 02-24-2010, 04:37 PM
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I think the main reason to the playable worgen being human in their 'non-combat' form is all due to the fact that they start in Gilneas, which was once a province of Lordaeron, the great Human continent.

It's just a case of where they come from. The worgen in Silverpine and Duskwood are most likely Humans too because of the area they are from.

For all we know... and this is my opinion. The Worgen 'curse' could only effect humans. Other races my not be effected by it.
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  #90  
Old 02-24-2010, 04:45 PM
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I think the main reason to the playable worgen being human in their 'non-combat' form is all due to the fact that they start in Gilneas, which was once a province of Lordaeron, the great Human continent.

It's just a case of where they come from. The worgen in Silverpine and Duskwood are most likely Humans too because of the area they are from.

For all we know... and this is my opinion. The Worgen 'curse' could only effect humans. Other races my not be effected by it.
I doubt that the Duskwood ones are. They are the same as the Ashenvale ones.
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  #91  
Old 02-24-2010, 05:16 PM
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I doubt that the Duskwood ones are. They are the same as the Ashenvale ones.
I definatly think that the Duskwood Worgen were Humans, what with Stormwind being so close and the fact the the majority of the surrounding areas are Human Territories.

The Ashenvale Worgen i'll admit i completely forgot about, but it's possible they could be the druidic ties that allow Woregn to be druids... but that's me being far fetched.
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Old 02-24-2010, 06:16 PM
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I definatly think that the Duskwood Worgen were Humans, what with Stormwind being so close and the fact the the majority of the surrounding areas are Human Territories.
Well, I am fairly certain that they were summoned by the Scythe of Elune's random portals. Velinde Starsong was last seen in Duskwood. Some may be cursed humans, but I do not think the summoned worgen can make the werewolf-type worgen, just Arugal.

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The Ashenvale Worgen i'll admit i completely forgot about, but it's possible they could be the druidic ties that allow Woregn to be druids... but that's me being far fetched.
A popular theory is that the worgen summoned by the Scythe of Elune are ancient druids who accepted the wolf as their totem, but were for some reason stuck halfway through a shapeshift, and then went crazy.

There are other less... certain(?) parts of the theory. Like that they revered Goldrinn, and that they were locked in the Emerald Dream.

The Lords of the Emerald Flame might be demons during the War of the Ancients, or green dragon jailers of the worgen. I dunno.
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Old 02-24-2010, 06:28 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Well, I am fairly certain that they were summoned by the Scythe of Elune's random portals. Velinde Starsong was last seen in Duskwood. Some may be cursed humans, but I do not think the summoned worgen can make the werewolf-type worgen, just Arugal.



A popular theory is that the worgen summoned by the Scythe of Elune are ancient druids who accepted the wolf as their totem, but were for some reason stuck halfway through a shapeshift, and then went crazy.

There are other less... certain(?) parts of the theory. Like that they revered Goldrinn, and that they were locked in the Emerald Dream.

The Lords of the Emerald Flame might be demons during the War of the Ancients, or green dragon jailers of the worgen. I dunno.
maybe they were other races that lived in ashenvale that got turned into worgens, the utility of the scythe is never trully revealed it could have been turning random people into worgens.
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Old 02-24-2010, 06:32 PM
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maybe they were other races that lived in ashenvale that got turned into worgens, the utility of the scythe is never trully revealed it could have been turning random people into worgens.
It is true that what we know is vague, but do you take that implication from Velinde's Journal?

Consider:

"By further channeling the energy of the Scythe, the barriers weakened more, and I was able to draw the worgen into our world."

versus:

"By further channeling the energy of the Scythe, the barriers weakened more, and I was able to draw the worgen into our world by using the bodies of people that were just standing around. Sorry I forgot to mention that."

I think the were-worgen are just Arugal's doing.
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Old 02-24-2010, 06:44 PM
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maybe they were other races that lived in ashenvale that got turned into worgens, the utility of the scythe is never trully revealed it could have been turning random people into worgens.
After re-reading Jitters journal i think the 'summoning' ideas of the scythe are much more likely. he says they come from inside the mine and drove them out.... unless there's loads more people in the mine they they didn't no about they would have had to be summoned

I've not read the other journal.
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Old 02-24-2010, 06:51 PM
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The whole incident in the mines where Jitters found the Scythe pretty explicitly describes the Worgen just suddenly manifesting all at once when he touched it. Besides, it seems like if the Worgen of Duskwood were like the cursed human types, their ability to spread the condition would have garnered a mention by the good folks of Darkshire.
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Old 02-24-2010, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
It is true that what we know is vague, but do you take that implication from Velinde's Journal?

Consider:

"By further channeling the energy of the Scythe, the barriers weakened more, and I was able to draw the worgen into our world."

versus:

"By further channeling the energy of the Scythe, the barriers weakened more, and I was able to draw the worgen into our world by using the bodies of people that were just standing around. Sorry I forgot to mention that."

I think the were-worgen are just Arugal's doing.
If they were just Arugal's doing then why would the Night Elves be involved?
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Old 02-24-2010, 06:51 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
It is true that what we know is vague, but do you take that implication from Velinde's Journal?

Consider:

"By further channeling the energy of the Scythe, the barriers weakened more, and I was able to draw the worgen into our world."

versus:

"By further channeling the energy of the Scythe, the barriers weakened more, and I was able to draw the worgen into our world by using the bodies of people that were just standing around. Sorry I forgot to mention that."

I think the were-worgen are just Arugal's doing.
What i meant is that she didn't know she was turning random people and thought she was summoning them, but it's pretty much a hollow theory
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Old 02-24-2010, 06:59 PM
Aoirogosa Aoirogosa is offline

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It is a possiblity that some how the curse and the scythe are linked vaguely and when Argul created the Worgen they were summonable using the scythe...
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Old 02-24-2010, 07:57 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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Originally Posted by Ashendant View Post
Where do Gilgoblins fit in this aquatic and humanoid types? logic failure

This is why i created my own classification system for my story
Aquatic is a subtype. Humanoid is a type. Why would that be logic failure? We have things like gilgoblins in WoW already and everything is fine. Can you say naga?

The worgen in Duskwood are similar to the worgen in Ashenvale. Both were summoned by the Scythe. Even the RPG says worgen (the summoned ones which seem to always be in "worgen form") are located in Duskwood and Ashenvale only.
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