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  #226  
Old 02-26-2010, 08:32 AM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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That was unnecessary...

Let's not let this escalate into anything.
Over the top of course, but you must admit the lad does seem a bit fixated with the characters.
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  #227  
Old 02-26-2010, 08:34 AM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
That was unnecessary...

Let's not let this escalate into anything.



No! Never!!!
A bit exaggerated maybe, but it's not like I'm telling lies, is it?
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  #228  
Old 02-26-2010, 09:17 AM
Altrantis Altrantis is offline

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On the topic of dictators, in the warcraft universe it's hard to say what is dictatorship and what is monarchy. Well, this is mostly because they're pretty much the same thing, exept the monarch declares divine power or something to make his claim of power more righteous, and usually is from a bloodline, but all monarchies start as a dictatorship of sorts. Annother factor is that most leaders that could be considered dictators have the support of most of their people, like Sylvanas or Thrall, and even though they're not elected they act much like a president would. We could easilly say every leader is a dictator as there's no democracies, exept mayhaps Dalaran, which has a council, and Quel'thalas used to have sort of a constitutional monarchy.

Anyways, probably what makes these leaders democratic is that their subjects don't have to stay if they don't like their government, they can leave anytime, there's other organisations that would accept them and that have their ideals, locks that don't agree with thrall can go find, say, the blackrock and the dark horde, and if a human of Theramore wants to fight the Horde, they can take the boat to Stormwind and side with Varian.
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  #229  
Old 02-26-2010, 11:26 AM
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Slowpokeking, I'm amazed at your ability to put Tyrande's and Sylvanas' names in EVERY and EACH of your posts, even if the discussion is completely unrelated. Seriously, for the last few pages I have a hard time finding even one time you posted that you don't mention them, and it's even harder to find a thread where you don't come in to tell us how gorgeous, awesome and kick-ass Tyrande and Sylvanas are and how they're the main reason you're following the Warcraft lore. If Blizzard were to release a calendar with their female characters, I'm sure you'll be the first to buy it and wank on it so hard that within a week all pages would be stained.
My favorite character is Arthas, I like Kael(pre BC) and Kel'thuzad a lot, too. Not just the ladies.

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  #230  
Old 02-26-2010, 12:46 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Originally Posted by Altrantis View Post
On the topic of dictators, in the warcraft universe it's hard to say what is dictatorship and what is monarchy. Well, this is mostly because they're pretty much the same thing, exept the monarch declares divine power or something to make his claim of power more righteous, and usually is from a bloodline, but all monarchies start as a dictatorship of sorts. Annother factor is that most leaders that could be considered dictators have the support of most of their people, like Sylvanas or Thrall, and even though they're not elected they act much like a president would. We could easilly say every leader is a dictator as there's no democracies, exept mayhaps Dalaran, which has a council, and Quel'thalas used to have sort of a constitutional monarchy.

Anyways, probably what makes these leaders democratic is that their subjects don't have to stay if they don't like their government, they can leave anytime, there's other organisations that would accept them and that have their ideals, locks that don't agree with thrall can go find, say, the blackrock and the dark horde, and if a human of Theramore wants to fight the Horde, they can take the boat to Stormwind and side with Varian.
High Tinkers are also elected. Also, the reason that there are so many dictatorships among the horde and so few monarchies is because all of the Horde's governments are very new or have undocumented histories. Here's how I would sum up every government, regardless of what is said in the RPG, based on real world governments and government terms.


Stormwind: Constitutional Monarchy (Monarch's power is checked by the House of Nobles)
Ironforge: Constitutional Monarchy (Monarch's power is checked by the Ironforge Senate, though the king also serves on it)
Gnomeregan: Technocratic of Meritocratic Democracy (High Tinker has set terms and is elected, in part, due to his intellectual abilities)
Darnassus: Theocracy (High Priestess of Elune holds ultimate power)
Exodar: Theocracy (Prophet holds ultimate power, decides national policy directly by "visions")
Alliance: Collective Security Alliance with a council system

Orgrimmar: Kratocracy (leader is decided through strength and cunning, IE, battle or assassination) or Cronyist Meritocracy (power is given to those who show promise to the previous ruling party) with a strong state religion
Darkspear Tribe: Absolute Monarchy/Chiefdom (What little power the trolls have seems to be directly in Vol'Jin's hands)
Thunder Bluff: Aristocratic Chiefdom (High Chief with a council of minor chiefs)
Forsaken: Fascist Dictatorship (Sylvanas is the absolute ruler, who promotes the state over the individual, "my life for the Forsaken")
Quel'Thalas: Formerly an Aristocratic Monarchy, I'd say it's currently a regency with a council system.
Horde: Federation with some fascist tendencies (mostly vestiges of the Old Horde)
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  #231  
Old 02-26-2010, 01:09 PM
ReservoirPirate ReservoirPirate is offline

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I'm surprised that none of the reviewers have mentioned Xavius' ties to the Old Gods and/or Queen Azshara which is explored within the novel, leaving great implications for Cataclysm and future expansions. Towards the end of the novel, Malfurion, using his druidic powers (enhanced by Ysera), observes all of Azeroth through the planet itself, directly viewing the presence of what can be assumed as the Old Gods within some form of realm linked to the planet's core ( I assume this is the Titanic prison previously mentioned in various sources). Xavius, last seen as an enchanted tree created by Furion's own hand in WotA, is said to have been nurtured through the millennia by an ancient and malevolent force deep beneath the sea before ascending to the surface near Azshara (the place) in order to begin his assault on the Emerald Dream. After his failure at merging the Nightmare with Azeroth following the awakening of Malfurion and the efforts of the "Dream Army", culminating in the death of Eranikus and freeing of Ysera, the ancient force is said to abandon him to his fate.

Whether this ancient power is Azshara herself or the Old God assumed to have a connection with the Maelstrom is never directly explained, but what is certain is that Malfurion now knows the great extents to which the Old Gods will go to reconquer Azeroth, as well as the far-reaching nature of their manipulations. In addition, the malevolent power still has a foothold within the now-purified Dream, pushed back to a rift said to lead to the Twisting Nether/Great Dark Beyond (I'm at work and don't have my copy of the novel, so I can't recall the rift's actual name, though it does have one).

Oh, and hello everyone!

Editied to clarify between Azshara the queen and Azshara the place.

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  #232  
Old 02-26-2010, 01:19 PM
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Rift of Aln.
Yes Furion found it at last, there is something behind Xavius, and Xavius' power gained from Yesera also was battering the force behind him. It should be the Old Gods. Azshara isn't a smart woman. Sargeras also could be a possibility.

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  #233  
Old 02-26-2010, 02:55 PM
ReservoirPirate ReservoirPirate is offline

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Agreed, there's no definitive answer given, I just find the nature of Xavius/The Nightmare Lord to be much more in line with the Old Gods. The fact that he projects the worst fears, worries, and sorrows of mortals directly into their minds in order to gain power with which to spread the Nightmare seems very C'thun/Yogg-Saronish. Granted the inclusion of satyrs as his physical army on Azeroth infers demonic connections, one could propose that they are independent tribes which follow Xavius' commands despite his allegiance, seeing him as the first and strongest of their kind.

Oh, and also since he's an enormous evil tree with sucker-lined tentacles for roots, the Lovecraftian imagery is pretty strongly reinforced. It will be interesting to see what connections to the events of the novel are made in-game, given the pretty global events that occurred.
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  #234  
Old 02-26-2010, 03:03 PM
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Xavius didn't make big mistake in the novel except he didn't kill Tyrande and didn't know Furion could go super saiyan with other druids' help.

If I'm not wrong, most of the saytrs serve the Burning Legion and allied with Shadow Council.

I wonder what happened to Sargeras, is his soul still in his tomb or somewhere? Seems like Varimarthas was trying to summon him but failed. Is his body totally destroyed? Looks like he didn't summon his full body into this world during the Dragon Hunt.
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  #235  
Old 02-26-2010, 03:15 PM
ReservoirPirate ReservoirPirate is offline

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Yeah, that was my impression of the satyrs left on Azeroth as well, so it makes it hard to draw any definitive conclusion. The fact that they are only briefly utilized at the end of the book could also just be chalked up to Knaak going, "Oh Xavius used to be a satyr, let's use satyrs!" As for Sargeras, who's to say? I would think the destruction of the portal in the Well would sever his influence there for a time. Also, since Xavius was originally drowned with the rest of the Highborne and Azshara, I'd say it only further points to his corruption by those forces which saved them. Hopefully we'll find out when we finally go for a dip in Cataclysm.
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  #236  
Old 02-26-2010, 03:25 PM
RobLore RobLore is offline

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Maybe the Old God will merge Azshara
One of the old godish images in Ulduar looks like Azshara from the Shadows & Light book.
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  #237  
Old 02-26-2010, 03:40 PM
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Azshara was shown in the Emerald Dream.

She got a monstrous face, webbed and clawed hand and snake like lower half, pretty much like other female nagas. But later those images all disppeared when Tyrande called for Elune. We are not sure it's just imagination or Azshara really did try to harm her through the dream.

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  #238  
Old 02-26-2010, 03:40 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Originally Posted by Altrantis View Post
yways, probably what makes these leaders democratic is that their subjects don't have to stay if they don't like their government, they can leave anytime, there's other organisations that would accept them and that have their ideals, locks that don't agree with thrall can go find, say, the blackrock and the dark horde, and if a human of Theramore wants to fight the Horde, they can take the boat to Stormwind and side with Varian.
That doesn't really make them democratic, it just means that they don't practice serfdom and their citizenry is emancipated. Labor policy, not electoral policy. If, for example, Stormwind was a democratic nation, the House of Nobles that checks Varian's power (in theory... I think their power base is pretty well totalled right now) would not have its members be chosen by bloodline, but instead, by vote.

The term "democracy" is used as a blanket term for anything that the average Western civilization has as a part of its government, but really, there's a lot of different components in there that are not necessarily tied in to democracy as a form of government.
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  #239  
Old 02-26-2010, 03:43 PM
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Stormwind: Constitutional Monarchy (Monarch's power is checked by the House of Nobles)
Ironforge: Constitutional Monarchy (Monarch's power is checked by the Ironforge Senate, though the king also serves on it)
Constitutional monarchy suggests the king is merely a ceremonial figurehead, which is clearly not the case neither in Stormwind, nor in Ironforge (remember Death Knight starting quests where the king alone has full authority to pardon the war criminal, something that wouldn't be even close to possible under constitutional monarchy). Likewise, the House of Nobles and Ironforge Senate suggest that it's not a true absolutist monarchy, especially since both bodies seem to hold considerable political power on their own, not just as king's advisors. I'd say both systems should be referred to as limited monarchies, somewhat similar to english monarchy after magna carta, but before the glorious revolution and the resultant bill of rights.

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On the topic of dictators, in the warcraft universe it's hard to say what is dictatorship and what is monarchy. Well, this is mostly because they're pretty much the same thing, exept the monarch declares divine power or something to make his claim of power more righteous, and usually is from a bloodline, but all monarchies start as a dictatorship of sorts.
Not really. A dictatorship is an autocratic form of government ruled by an individual, dictator, sometimes even as a temporary establishment for crisis situations (see Roman Republic). A monarchy, on the other hand, is any form of government where a monarch is a head of state. The key difference between a monarchy and republic is that a president is named for a predefined set amount of time (say, 4 years), whereas a monarch is named until death or abdiction. That is why you can actually have a democratic system with monarch as head of state (say, england today) or an authocratic republic (say, USSR or Iran).

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  #240  
Old 02-26-2010, 04:01 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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I would say that there's not much difference between the two. The only difference is really that the rules that apply to the Monarchy are written down instead of being unspoken agreements, and there's still a lot of the latter (see: Canadian legislature). It's possible that the power to pardon criminals is specifically reserved by the King of Stormwind in a legal document or something, who can say?

It's very hard to draw the line with the information we have. The Lyran Commonwealth in CBT, for example, is a Constitutional Monarchy because even though the Archon has enormous amounts of power, their duties and limits to power are spelled out in the Articles of Acceptance. We don't know what Stormwind's legal system is like at all.
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  #241  
Old 02-26-2010, 05:01 PM
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That's certainly how Maiev sees it. Tyrande was a soldier just doing her job. But is that really true? Maiev is in a pretty strong position to save Tyrande's life and she just gives up on her then and there. If it's Tyrande's duty to save Maiev's life, then how is it not Maiev's duty to save Tyrande's? Afterwards, where hunting down Tyrande would be a problematic distraction, maybe it wasn't such a great idea, so maybe there is some practical justification for not telling Furion about Tyrande's fate. But then and there? How far away could Tyrande have gotten?

Maiev just left her to die.



Yes she did. She obviously cares very deeply about him. All of her arguments to Furion about why he should be freed, are personal in nature. "He's your brother." etc. etc.

Hell, I'd even go as far to say as she still loves Illidan even in TFT. The manual doesn't mention it, and she never says it in the game, but it's very obvious to me. After they confront Illidan in Night Elf x mission 5 she starts to completely ignore Furion and is completely fixated on Illidan. She also goes to a great deal of trouble to explain her behavior to him. If she didn't care about him, she wouldn't bother.



Maiev was most certainly crazy. She displays obsessive behaviour with little concern for anything else. She tells some pretty huge and destructive lies to get what she wants, and even after Furion, the guy who gave her the job of guarding Illidan tells her to give it up she still keeps chasing him.

I wouldn't compare Tyrande's behaviour to Maiev's anyway. Besides the fact that Tyrande's choice in the Barrow Deeps WASN'T justified anyway. Tyrande didn't lie to Furion to get him to help her free Illidan. She went after him on her own because she felt loyal to him. He was her childhood friend. She wanted to see him as a hero again, she wanted to redeem him. When he turned into a demon, she realized the mistake she had made, and how deep-seated Illidan's lust for power was. Maiev never admits to or attempts to take responsibility for her mistakes, she just keeps pushing forward.



About Tyrande? Well... er... hypoetheticals are still silly, but Illidan would have died, and then I'm not sure what Maiev would have done, maybe THEN she would have told Furion about what happened to Tyrande, probably not, though But er... it's sort of moot, why WOULDN'T Kael tell Furion that Tyrande was probably alive?
Before she released him, all she was saying is "He'll be a great help against the legion". I think she does have some feelings for Illidan, but released him mostly because his power. She didn't even thank him for ended the corruption and killed Tichondirous after he became a demon.

Well, Tyrande did not show love to Illidan after he became demon in TFT at all, can you give some evidence about? She even thought Illidan came to kill her in the last campaign.

To Maeiv, Tyrande refused to admit she was wrong towards her, and didn't say she's sorry for her watchers' death. That surely let her become angry, even though Tyrande knew her mistake.

PS: If Kael thought Tyrande could not survive for so long, he won't tell Furion. I'm sure Maiev won't tell Furion because she hates Tyrande so much.

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  #242  
Old 02-26-2010, 05:03 PM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Xavius didn't make big mistake in the novel except he didn't kill Tyrande and didn't know Furion could go super saiyan with other druids' help.
What do you mean go super saiyan (I mean I know what it means, but an example) This is the man who caused a storm so bad it decimated an entire army, almost crushed Archimonde to death with a roots spell, and turned a dude into a friggin tree. How much more powerful has he gotten?
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  #243  
Old 02-26-2010, 05:17 PM
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What do you mean go super saiyan (I mean I know what it means, but an example) This is the man who caused a storm so bad it decimated an entire army, almost crushed Archimonde to death with a roots spell, and turned a dude into a friggin tree. How much more powerful has he gotten?
With other druids' power aiding, he was able to release a huge storm, cleansed almost the whole Azeroth and Emerald Dream when those mists and shadowy creatures everywhere. "Azeroth trembled. The Emerald Dream shimmered. "

Then he called a thunder to awake those people.

"There had ben on Azeroth no sound like it. A hundred volacnoes could not match it. All the combied storms throughout history could not come even close to its fantastic power."

He again called a rain, covered all Azeroth to calm down those people, so they won't let their fear feed the Nightmare Lord, Tyrande also helped him.

Finally, his separated his dreamform from his body, both casted storm and thunder to strike Xavius, with Thura's legendary axe's combined power, Xavius was pwned.

Is that supersaiyan enough?

PS:Furion didn't crush Archimonde in WotA, didn't even cause much harm, just let him choose to retreat after his fight with Marlone.

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  #244  
Old 02-26-2010, 05:33 PM
ReservoirPirate ReservoirPirate is offline

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Yes, the novel certainly shows Malfurion's powers rise to an entirely new level, although he was lent not only the powers of every druid still awake, but also Azeroth itself (yes, Xavius basically succeeds in covering the entire planet with the Nightmare, leaving only small pockets of individuals from each race and faction free from its influence). Interestingly enough, towards the story's conclusion, Ysera informs Malfurion that he has new training awaiting him in the Emerald Dream - training she herself cannot even teach him...
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  #245  
Old 02-26-2010, 05:38 PM
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Yes, the novel certainly shows Malfurion's powers rise to an entirely new level, although he was lent not only the powers of every druid still awake, but also Azeroth itself (yes, Xavius basically succeeds in covering the entire planet with the Nightmare, leaving only small pockets of individuals from each race and faction free from its influence). Interestingly enough, towards the story's conclusion, Ysera informs Malfurion that he has new training awaiting him in the Emerald Dream - training she herself cannot even teach him...
Like I said before, Knaak could not control the story well, start to lose it since Yesera's capture. Xavius was just keep winning everything in both worlds, those characters were playing by him like puppets. In the end Knaak could only let Furion go supersaiyan and restore everything.
Seems like we are getting more and more "World Destroyers"?
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  #246  
Old 02-26-2010, 05:47 PM
ReservoirPirate ReservoirPirate is offline

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Yeah, it was certainly contrived, although I don't know how you could have wrapped up the story he wanted to tell without a deus ex machina. What else can you really expect from Knaak though? I'm just glad it incorporated and tied-up many of the loose ends from the game concerning the dream and various characters associated with it (Eranikus, Naralex, Remulos/Zaetar). That, and Hamuul Runetotem is awesome. Can't wait to see more of him in The Shattering.
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  #247  
Old 02-26-2010, 05:49 PM
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Well when I learned Knaak was going to write a book about Furion I knew he's gonna make him a superman character again like in WotA. But I didn't except it was this bad.
Eranikus is the best character in the novel.

Last edited by Slowpokeking; 02-26-2010 at 05:52 PM..
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  #248  
Old 02-26-2010, 05:54 PM
BaskinRidge BaskinRidge is offline

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That, and Hamuul Runetotem is awesome. Can't wait to see more of him in The Shattering.
Agreed, Hamuul had some important/cool parts in the WoW comic in case you didn't know. I'm glad we got to see a bit of Baine as well, though it wasn't much.
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  #249  
Old 02-26-2010, 05:55 PM
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Agreed, Hamuul had some important/cool parts in the WoW comic in case you didn't know. I'm glad we got to see a bit of Baine as well, though it wasn't much.
He was collecting Morrowgrain, too, right?
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  #250  
Old 02-26-2010, 06:01 PM
ReservoirPirate ReservoirPirate is offline

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Correct, though I think it was more along the lines of, "Why the hell does Fandral want so much of this stuff and what does it actually do?" Although he apparently never found out until now.

@Baskin, It was actually the panel of Hamuul fighting the quilboar at the Tauren gravesite that inspired me to roll my Tauren druid. The Baine part of the novel was certainly interesting as well, showing his dedication to and respect for his father. Marks certain Cataclysm rumors as less-than-sound.

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