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  #101  
Old 07-25-2010, 02:41 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Not in WarCraft. (or any Blizzard franchise really) In WarCraft 3 and StarCraft sometimes bad people would get away with doing bad stuff. And then they'd go on to do worse.

It's only been in WoW where good's always triumphed over evil and every even slightly morally questionable character has gotten his just desserts.

I find it refreshing that they're going back to that.

I don't really think comparisons between Sylvanas and Arthas are very apt. Arthas was a soulless killing machine intent on proving his value to himself and to his superiors, a sadistic monster who'd absolutely demolish anybody who defied him because he just couldn't stand his own failure.

Sylvanas on the other hand, is a control freak a paranoid control freak, but I don't think she's got Arthas' sadistic streak. Most of her use of the plague and the val'kyr is out of sheer ruthlessness and a desire to win at any cost. Rather than with Arthas and the Scourge where they did it more because they wanted to, more than because they had to. It was about the prestige. Sylvanas' isn't about the prestige, the honor or the recognition. She's about results.

They're two completely different kinds of evil, and I can't say which is worse than the other. (Mostly because I don't think 'evil' is a quantitative value...)

Still don't think there's much redeeming Sylvanas, though. She's a pretty cold-hearted bitch at this point. But she's compelling, I find. That's what I think has always made the Zerg and Undead and Orc campaigns of olde work. The protagonsits, no matter how despicable and murderous had something compelling about them, something that was interesting or fascinating to watch. No matter how disgusting it was.
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  #102  
Old 07-25-2010, 02:45 PM
Altrantis Altrantis is offline

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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
The Forsaken are automatically charmed when they are raised. When you raise the Hillsbrad refugees, the Valkyr say "Bow to your new master" and even the Ambermill mages who were desperate to not turn into Forsaken became her Forsaken mages. Pretty sure the charming was happening way before this event.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h52q...os=5bzQMWKvWG4
She wasn't just threatening to kill Lorna, she threatened to raise her in undeath as her servant forever. It wasn't a matter of Gilneas losing. Crowley even says it's not over yet and that he had more tricks up his sleeves. But Sylvannas forced his hand. What father would let his daughter spend an eternity as Sylvannas' puppet?
I'm not going to reply. I have a rule not to argue too long with people who have Varian Wyrnn in their avatar.

And the reason I said they are charmed after this point is that considering how things work in the game, Andorhal happens after Silverpine, and in Andorhal they specifically show you you're charming them, you have to first kill them and raise them as undead, and then, in annother quest, charm them.
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  #103  
Old 07-25-2010, 03:54 PM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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I'm not going to reply. I have a rule not to argue too long with people who have Varian Wyrnn in their avatar.
Oh so you're going to discriminate against my posts because of my avatar?
Nice elf fan art asshole. If you didn't want to have a discussion then why
did you reply to my post in the first place? Thanks for wasting both our time.

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And the reason I said they are charmed after this point is that considering how things work in the game, Andorhal happens after Silverpine, and in Andorhal they specifically show you you're charming them, you have to first kill them and raise them as undead, and then, in annother quest, charm them.
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I'm pretty sure the charming of the risen forsaken starts after this event.
You meant charming/brainwashing whatever the hell you want to call it and
I refuted that statement with evidence and you try to justify that you're right somehow by saying you were trying to tell me an obvious game mechanic will take place later on? Well thanks for that "brand new information" but let me tell you that charming takes place as soon as Silverpine.

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Not in WarCraft. (or any Blizzard franchise really) In WarCraft 3 and StarCraft sometimes bad people would get away with doing bad stuff. And then they'd go on to do worse.

It's only been in WoW where good's always triumphed over evil and every even slightly morally questionable character has gotten his just desserts.

I find it refreshing that they're going back to that.
Well Sylvannas can't continue these Scourge tactics forever. It goes against everything the Horde and Alliance fought against in the Lich King war. If the Alliance or Horde becomes these evil factions then what's the point of them fighting these wars if the changes that these boss factions would implement that the heroes are trying to prevent are adopted by the heroes themselves? It's just sends the wrong message imo.
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  #104  
Old 07-25-2010, 04:44 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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It's only been in WoW where good's always triumphed over evil and every even slightly morally questionable character has gotten his just desserts.

I find it refreshing that they're going back to that.
Part of that was the nature of the combatants, though. In the RTS's they were better at writing villains who were at each others throats, and especially when a fight was between two bad guys, it meant someone's morally questionable or outright evil antics were about to be rewarded when one villain beat the other.

These days the bad guys ignore each other and come up with half-baked reasons not to try as hard, so it's no wonder they only get stomped by the good guys; the good guys are the only ones even trying in WoW.
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  #105  
Old 07-25-2010, 08:23 PM
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And now for an interesting plottwist!
As you all know, Sylvanas isn't the person to be honorable in bargaining(remember her saying Garithos would get Lordaeron back), she insures they are always win-win. Well,Lorna is actually dead, she was directly possessed by a banshee, so she wouldn't be all rotten and stuff and still look and sound very much like the real one.
The Alliance troops respect the trade-off, and retreat from Gilneas and the Forsaken control all of Gilneas now. Upon arriving in Stormwind with others of the Gilneas Liberation Front, they go and meet up with Genn Greymane and Varian Wrynn to tell them why they were forced to retreat (this gives the alliance players information of what happened in Silverpine/Gilneas,since they don't see that storyline unfold). While Genn and Darius Crowley talk about their exploits in Silverpine, where Darius mentions how he let the Hillsbrad refugees drink his blood to prevent them from becoming servants to the Forsaken, then Lorna(possessed by the banshee) charges up to Genn and tries to strike a dagger in his heart, yet by reflex, Genn unsheathes his sword and strikes her, at which point the banshee releases the body to reveal that Lorna was already dead and the trade-off was a hoax.
Darius, infuriated at Sylvanas' betrayal(and at himself for believing it), tries to convince Genn and Varian to send their troops back to Gilneas again, but even Genn realises that it's now a suicide mission, considering the Forsaken have full control over the kingdom now and they have many of their troops stationed nearby.
So Darius wants to get a small elite strike force together to recapture the city, to show to the Alliance that it IS possible to recapture Gilneas, and turns to the Alliance's greatest heroes, the players, to be part of that strike force, this is where the Battle Of Gilneas City battleground starts off.









Unfortunatly, this is just what I hope would happen with the battle of gilneas, though it would fit in with both stories and give the alliance more info about the aftermath of Gilneas.
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  #106  
Old 07-25-2010, 08:32 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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Originally Posted by Reyson View Post
And now for an interesting plottwist!
As you all know, Sylvanas isn't the person to be honorable in bargaining(remember her saying Garithos would get Lordaeron back), she insures they are always win-win. Well,Lorna is actually dead, she was directly possessed by a banshee, so she wouldn't be all rotten and stuff and still look and sound very much like the real one.
The Alliance troops respect the trade-off, and retreat from Gilneas and the Forsaken control all of Gilneas now. Upon arriving in Stormwind with others of the Gilneas Liberation Front, they go and meet up with Genn Greymane and Varian Wrynn to tell them why they were forced to retreat (this gives the alliance players information of what happened in Silverpine/Gilneas,since they don't see that storyline unfold). While Genn and Darius Crowley talk about their exploits in Silverpine, where Darius mentions how he let the Hillsbrad refugees drink his blood to prevent them from becoming servants to the Forsaken, then Lorna(possessed by the banshee) charges up to Genn and tries to strike a dagger in his heart, yet by reflex, Genn unsheathes his sword and strikes her, at which point the banshee releases the body to reveal that Lorna was already dead and the trade-off was a hoax.
Darius, infuriated at Sylvanas' betrayal(and at himself for believing it), tries to convince Genn and Varian to send their troops back to Gilneas again, but even Genn realises that it's now a suicide mission, considering the Forsaken have full control over the kingdom now and they have many of their troops stationed nearby.
So Darius wants to get a small elite strike force together to recapture the city, to show to the Alliance that it IS possible to recapture Gilneas, and turns to the Alliance's greatest heroes, the players, to be part of that strike force, this is where the Battle Of Gilneas City battleground starts off.
Why doesn't Sylvanas just start sending dozens of people (who are really banshees) as sleeper assassins?
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  #107  
Old 07-25-2010, 08:37 PM
Jigsaw Complex Jigsaw Complex is offline

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Originally Posted by Reyson View Post
And now for an interesting plottwist!
As you all know, Sylvanas isn't the person to be honorable in bargaining(remember her saying Garithos would get Lordaeron back), she insures they are always win-win. Well,Lorna is actually dead, she was directly possessed by a banshee, so she wouldn't be all rotten and stuff and still look and sound very much like the real one.
The Alliance troops respect the trade-off, and retreat from Gilneas and the Forsaken control all of Gilneas now. Upon arriving in Stormwind with others of the Gilneas Liberation Front, they go and meet up with Genn Greymane and Varian Wrynn to tell them why they were forced to retreat (this gives the alliance players information of what happened in Silverpine/Gilneas,since they don't see that storyline unfold). While Genn and Darius Crowley talk about their exploits in Silverpine, where Darius mentions how he let the Hillsbrad refugees drink his blood to prevent them from becoming servants to the Forsaken, then Lorna(possessed by the banshee) charges up to Genn and tries to strike a dagger in his heart, yet by reflex, Genn unsheathes his sword and strikes her, at which point the banshee releases the body to reveal that Lorna was already dead and the trade-off was a hoax.
Darius, infuriated at Sylvanas' betrayal(and at himself for believing it), tries to convince Genn and Varian to send their troops back to Gilneas again, but even Genn realises that it's now a suicide mission, considering the Forsaken have full control over the kingdom now and they have many of their troops stationed nearby.
So Darius wants to get a small elite strike force together to recapture the city, to show to the Alliance that it IS possible to recapture Gilneas, and turns to the Alliance's greatest heroes, the players, to be part of that strike force, this is where the Battle Of Gilneas City battleground starts off.
Tease



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Why doesn't Sylvanas just start sending dozens of people (who are really banshees) as sleeper assassins?
Dammit! Don't give her ideas, man!
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The thought of Genn and them entering Darnassus amuses me.

'Yea see that purple light? Just walk into that to enter the city. Just trust me you'll be fine!'.

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  #108  
Old 07-25-2010, 08:37 PM
Iikai Iikai is offline

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Why doesn't Sylvanas just start sending dozens of people (who are really banshees) as sleeper assassins?
I'm guessing the Death Knights in the Alliance would be able to detect that, and if it happened often I'm sure we would have security check points in Stormwind with Death Knights screening in people and players entering the city.
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  #109  
Old 07-25-2010, 08:44 PM
Reyson Reyson is offline

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If nothing else, she never intended to be at the possibility of losing, so none of the enemies would've returned from Gilneas, they'd be members of the Forsaken army. Having a lot of sleeper agents would mean she had to bring many banshees with her to Gilneas and considering the Val'kyr are her new toys of choice, she didn't bring many/if any banshees.


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Tease
Hey! I managed to write a decent piece of text without it being all horde-sided(could've made Lorna actually killing someone). In all fairness, I do hope they add such a thing, it would make the Forsaken even more hated by the Alliance, and make Darius Crowley becoming a bit more like a zealot in eliminating the Forsaken, which could get the worgen from acting in a similar way to the forsaken(which they already do, turning the hillsbrad people into worgens too).
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  #110  
Old 07-25-2010, 09:33 PM
Joshmaul Joshmaul is offline

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Is the conversion of Hillsbrad...survivors, I guess the word would be...into worgen voluntary, or is the GLF going apeshit and just infecting people left right and sideways?
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  #111  
Old 07-25-2010, 09:38 PM
Twofootfury Twofootfury is offline

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It's voluntary.
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  #112  
Old 07-25-2010, 09:43 PM
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It's voluntary.
Sort of.. The survivors balk at the choice of becoming worgen, but Crowley lays down an ultimatum: drink the blood and become worgen, or stay here and die and be raised as undead. Either way, they must forsake humanity.
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  #113  
Old 07-25-2010, 09:49 PM
Jigsaw Complex Jigsaw Complex is offline

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Sort of.. The survivors balk at the choice of becoming worgen, but Crowley lays down an ultimatum: drink the blood and become worgen, or stay here and die and be raised as undead. Either way, they must forsake humanity.
Not trying to start anything, but aren't Worgen closer to humans then the Forsaken? It's not really a matter of humanity, it's closer to a matter of life or death.
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The thought of Genn and them entering Darnassus amuses me.

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  #114  
Old 07-25-2010, 09:50 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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If you are a followed of the Church, like most humans, almost anything is preferable to becoming undead, Soooo...
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  #115  
Old 07-25-2010, 09:50 PM
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And thus Silverpine Forest, Gilneas, and Hillsbrad Foothills becomes the new home of the Worgen Nation.
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  #116  
Old 07-25-2010, 10:55 PM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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I'm not saying anything about which choice is better or right, just that they were facing an terrible choice.
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  #117  
Old 07-25-2010, 11:08 PM
Altrantis Altrantis is offline

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Oh so you're going to discriminate against my posts because of my avatar?
Nice elf fan art asshole. If you didn't want to have a discussion then why
did you reply to my post in the first place? Thanks for wasting both our time.
After reading your post, I can answer: it's because of this. people who have Varian avatars are always alliance zealots ala Ainhin from the official forums. It gets annoying very fast to argue with such people.


Edit: It's a simple as this: I'm not going to allow myself feel anger over a lore conversation.
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  #118  
Old 07-25-2010, 11:20 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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Worgen or forsaken? Oh man, another hard decision. I had a big enough problem when I had to choose between Team Edward and Team Jacob.
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  #119  
Old 07-25-2010, 11:20 PM
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Worgen or forsaken? Oh man, another hard decision. I had a big enough problem when I had to choose between Team Edward and Team Jacob.
......fuck
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  #120  
Old 07-25-2010, 11:27 PM
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Not trying to start anything, but aren't Worgen closer to humans then the Forsaken? It's not really a matter of humanity, it's closer to a matter of life or death.
are we sure that worgen doesn't mean any mental change? it seems rather unlikely that changing one's self into a werewolf would have absolutely no other effect rather than your outlook. We've seen people right before and right after being turned into a worgen, they might end up being more predatorial than what they'd like. Just look at the packleader that GLF, he doesn't seem to act like your average human, now does he? you could write that to being secluded for so long, yes, but it's also possible that in time, being a worgen changes you mentally along with physicly. Maybe they will eventually be only worgen, similar to those that attacked them and those in Duskwood.

Does being a Forsaken actually change you mentally? perhaps it just makes you come to a realisation, like 'I have faced death, nothing can be worse', 'normal people will never respect me for what I am, therefor I will make them be like me' or 'in undeath I can do things I couldn't/didn't dare to do in life'.
I find this rather interesting, compared to saying: charm=mindcontrol, nothing better than the scourge!!!
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  #121  
Old 07-25-2010, 11:29 PM
Yuber8900 Yuber8900 is offline

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are we sure that worgen doesn't mean any mental change? it seems rather unlikely that changing one's self into a werewolf would have absolutely no other effect rather than your outlook. We've seen people right before and right after being turned into a worgen, they might end up being more predatorial than what they'd like. Just look at the packleader that GLF, he doesn't seem to act like your average human, now does he? you could write that to being secluded for so long, yes, but it's also possible that in time, being a worgen changes you mentally along with physicly. Maybe they will eventually be only worgen, similar to those that attacked them and those in Duskwood.

Does being a Forsaken actually change you mentally? perhaps it just makes you come to a realisation, like 'I have faced death, nothing can be worse', 'normal people will never respect me for what I am, therefor I will make them be like me' or 'in undeath I can do things I couldn't/didn't dare to do in life'.
I find this rather interesting, compared to saying: charm=mindcontrol, nothing better than the scourge!!!
Worgen change doesn't seem to make people into genocidal douchebags (barring a few select cases).
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  #122  
Old 07-26-2010, 12:02 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Worgen change doesn't seem to make people into genocidal douchebags (barring a few select cases).
Being a Forsaken doesn't either. The circumstances around becoming a Forsaken might, though.

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Unfortunatly, this is just what I hope would happen with the battle of gilneas, though it would fit in with both stories and give the alliance more info about the aftermath of Gilneas.
I don't think I'd like that that much, but I was just thinking they weren't making enough use of Sylvanas' primary agents, the banshees.
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  #123  
Old 07-26-2010, 12:27 AM
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Worgen or forsaken? Oh man, another hard decision.
A rotten corpse or an animal within? Yeah, that's a really hard choice.

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I had a big enough problem when I had to choose between Team Edward and Team Jacob.
Do it like Selene - kill them all. With a shotgun.
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  #124  
Old 07-26-2010, 12:29 AM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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Well the idea of the cure back in the RPG was that it would keep your human intellect intact. Not sure how Cata changes it.

I think most forsaken do change. They want to turn you into a forsaken for no reason even if you have known them since childhood.
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  #125  
Old 07-26-2010, 01:15 AM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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You might think of it as a tossup, but I doubt the people involved do. Turning in to a Worgen might not be on top of their list of fates, but I can't think of anything else that the Church has proscribed that you should end as an act of mercy.
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