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  #76  
Old 02-06-2010, 11:22 AM
Stackattack Stackattack is offline

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Originally Posted by Fordragon View Post
Thank you. WC3 is a terrible RTS where the primary skill is memorizing build orders and hotkeys. It makes for excellent RPG-style maps and things, but that's clearly not what they set out to make, so it is a complete failure, Oblivion-style.
what up, you couldn't beat the campaign at easy, so it's a terrible game for sure? speak for yourself please, tons and tons of people still playing it prove you wrong.
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  #77  
Old 02-06-2010, 11:31 AM
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I think he just doesn't like RTSes in general. And that's fine, he's entitled to do so.
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  #78  
Old 02-06-2010, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Fordragon View Post
Thank you. WC3 is a terrible RTS where the primary skill is memorizing build orders and hotkeys. It makes for excellent RPG-style maps and things, but that's clearly not what they set out to make, so it is a complete failure, Oblivion-style.
The multiplayer wasn't fun, but I thought the campaign was excellent.
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  #79  
Old 02-06-2010, 12:00 PM
SomeRandomEvilGuy SomeRandomEvilGuy is offline

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Originally Posted by Stratego Telenil
You know, Garithos wanted to execute Kael because he had to ally with the nagas to fulfill its mission, even though it resulted in the Alliance victory. Kael would've had arguments if he had been tried by a genuine martial court.
Garithos gave Kael a direct order not to consort with Naga. Kael disobeyed that order. The fact that the Naga are already enemies of the Alliance compounds the fact. Say, for example, Kael hadn't accepted help from the Naga. Say that instead he made his own stand on that island. What could the Scourge have done? If nothing else, the Elves as a whole are renowned for having capable ranged units, both magical and physical. Maybe the Scourge could have overwhelmed them with air power, but I doubt it. Either Kael would have died on that island or, as I feel is more likely, he would have held out long enough for Garithos to arrive and hit the Scourge from the flank (well, flank relative to Kael's perspective.).
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Because of the incredible bad faith this decision implies from Garithos, the lord could just as well have executed them for fleeing before the enemy while they were sent to battle. This too is a major offense in the army, and Garithos certainly didn't care about fairness when it came to the blood elves.
Garithos' men might not have carried out that order. I wasn't saying Kael should flee before the enemy, I was suggesting that he should have used some sort of strategy to emphasize the strengths at his disposal rather than fighting the Scourge on their terms. Anyway, war isn't fair. Neither is Warcraft.
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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking
Garithos said carried all foot soldiers, he DID not say human and dwarf only, so that's what happened.
Then why not show any Elves go to join Garithos' army? Even a couple of swordsmen or archers would've shown that Kael really had almost no army, but Blizzard chose not to for a reason. Regardless, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point - it's just a matter of interpretation.

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After Garithos said "They are inhuman and must be crushed like any other enemy! "
The Naga were already enemies with the Alliance if that human paladin held captive in Dalaran was any indication. Regardless of his motives for saying so, Garithos was right. The Naga are their enemies, despite Kael's piss poor and rather non-sensical attempt to defend them.
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Let me ask, here is the choice, die with you man, raised as undead, or use some naga's help? Kael had no choice left.
Or hold out until reinforcements arrive. Or, perhaps, use a better stategy in the first place. Use rafts to sail down the river to safety while your air forces hold theirs off. There were more choices to be made. Kael just couldn't see all of them, and choice one that set him on a collision course with Garithos. The fool didn't even try to hide it, but kept on talking the Vashj as if his commander wouldn't kill him for it as he suspected.

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Originally Posted by Stackattack
what up, you couldn't beat the campaign at easy, so it's a terrible game for sure? speak for yourself please, tons and tons of people still playing it prove you wrong.
The difficulty of the campaign says little about how good the gameplay is. Besides, it was clear it was his opinion, so why make such a big deal about it? Personally, I don't think the gameplay's that great myself. However, I quite enjoyed the campaign (more for the background than the actually gameplay though), which was, for the record, bloody easy.
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  #80  
Old 02-06-2010, 12:11 PM
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It's game mechanic, if they all went off then you just use nagas? It's still a BE campaign. When it's against the dialogue, we take the dialogue as lore.

Hold out? Completely outnumbered ,nowhere to go, no freaking message said there will be any reinforcements coming. The Scourge got everyhing. Garithos ORDERED them to CRUSH the undead before they reach Dalaran. Does that sound like he would come back any soon?
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  #81  
Old 02-06-2010, 01:58 PM
SomeRandomEvilGuy SomeRandomEvilGuy is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
It's game mechanic, if they all went off then you just use nagas? It's still a BE campaign. When it's against the dialogue, we take the dialogue as lore.
They could still have shown a couple of Elves going. They didn't, and I believe that that was for a reason, not just due to game mechanics.
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Hold out? Completely outnumbered ,nowhere to go, no freaking message said there will be any reinforcements coming. The Scourge got everyhing. Garithos ORDERED them to CRUSH the undead before they reach Dalaran. Does that sound like he would come back any soon?
I believe I posted at some point that there was no way of him knowing that Garithos would help. Regardless, what was his original plan anyway? Either he didn't have one, or it was to hold out for as long as possible. He never went for any of the other strategies he could have tried, but tried to hold out. His plan failed, and he got bailed out by the Naga. However, he thought that he was being sent on a suicide mission. Garithos doesn't actually want Dalaran taken by the Scourge, so he must have been planning to return anyway to stop the Scourge. If Kael had thought about it logically, Garithos would have had to attack these Scourge anyway. Still, that's a bit harsh on my part. The point is, he had options other than getting help from Alliance enemies, even if he didn't or couldn't know that at the time.

Alternatively, he could have left the island on rafts. The Scourge may have had air power, but the magic, archers and Dragonhawk Riders could have countered Gargoyles and Frostwyrms as they slipped away down the river. After that they could disembark and fight on ground that would be advantageous to them, rather than fighting on the Scourge's terms. Not much of a plan, admittedly, but it's better than Kael's was.
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  #82  
Old 02-06-2010, 02:30 PM
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The Alliance did not stated naga as enemy until Garithos said so.
A few spellbreakers, archers and mages.
How could he have plan? The emissary simply came here, told him to crush the undead, he thought it's ok, then the emissary called out all foot soldiers, cavalry and support teams report to the front lines. And the undead started attack almost immediately, without enought force the undead soon crushed the bases.

Yes Garithos wanted him to die like he said he wanted to execute everyone of them, he even stated it. They were not fighting in Dalaran, they were outside of it. So the undead won't take it simply by kill Kael and his man.

Garithos let Kael stay outside of the city, took most of his forces, let him crush an undead force that is massive and terrible. Is it like he will aid?

Last edited by Slowpokeking; 02-06-2010 at 02:33 PM..
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  #83  
Old 02-06-2010, 04:53 PM
Nozdormu Nozdormu is offline

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Did they burn Kael'thas' body? If not, it would be interesting if he got ressurected into some sort of blood lich.
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  #84  
Old 02-06-2010, 04:59 PM
Nozdormu Nozdormu is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
The Alliance did not stated naga as enemy until Garithos said so.
A few spellbreakers, archers and mages.
How could he have plan? The emissary simply came here, told him to crush the undead, he thought it's ok, then the emissary called out all foot soldiers, cavalry and support teams report to the front lines. And the undead started attack almost immediately, without enought force the undead soon crushed the bases.

Yes Garithos wanted him to die like he said he wanted to execute everyone of them, he even stated it. They were not fighting in Dalaran, they were outside of it. So the undead won't take it simply by kill Kael and his man.

Garithos let Kael stay outside of the city, took most of his forces, let him crush an undead force that is massive and terrible. Is it like he will aid?
I thought this thread was about Kael's death.. You guys are turning it into some sort of argument, soon to be flaming, that has little to do with his death....
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  #85  
Old 02-06-2010, 05:35 PM
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Did they burn Kael'thas' body? If not, it would be interesting if he got ressurected into some sort of blood lich.
I always thought that Kael would be the perfect first known Fire Lich.
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Old 02-06-2010, 06:24 PM
Garithos Garithos is offline

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Garithos never struck me as a righteous and honorable man. He even had the Dark Knight class.
: Why's he running, Dad?

: Because we have to chase him.

: He didn't do anything wrong.

: Because he's the hero Humanity deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight.
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  #87  
Old 02-06-2010, 06:44 PM
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Anduin Wrynn: Why's he running, Dad?

Varian Wrynn: Because we have to chase him.

Anduin Wrynn: He didn't do anything wrong.

Varian Wrynn: Because he's the hero Humanity deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight.
I think you're a bad man.
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  #88  
Old 02-06-2010, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Garithos View Post
: Why's he running, Dad?

: Because we have to chase him.

: He didn't do anything wrong.

: Because he's the hero Humanity deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight.

"Either you die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the VILLAIN."
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  #89  
Old 02-06-2010, 08:11 PM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

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Originally Posted by Garithos View Post
: Why's he running, Dad?

: Because we have to chase him.

: He didn't do anything wrong.

: Because he's the hero Humanity deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight.
Garithos just reminds me of a racist fat man tbh lol the arrogant kind you just want to make admit defeat....
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  #90  
Old 02-06-2010, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
The Alliance did not stated naga as enemy until Garithos said so.
The naga have been enemies of the Alliance AT LEAST since they started attacking Boralus sometime after the 2nd war. And considering the Daggerspine tribe is in Hillsbrad and the Darkspine tribe is in Quel'Thalas, messing with the local populace, I'd say the Alliance is definitely an enemy of the naga.
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Old 02-06-2010, 10:52 PM
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The naga have been enemies of the Alliance AT LEAST since they started attacking Boralus sometime after the 2nd war. And considering the Daggerspine tribe is in Hillsbrad and the Darkspine tribe is in Quel'Thalas, messing with the local populace, I'd say the Alliance is definitely an enemy of the naga.
So Illidan went back in time to summon the naga?
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Old 02-07-2010, 05:41 AM
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: You cannot lead these men unless you are prepared to do what is necessary to defeat evil.
: And where would I be leading these men?
: Lordaeron. As Lordaeron's favored son you will be ideally placed to strike at the heart of humanity.
: How?
: Lordaeron's time has come. Like Stromgarde or Alterac before it the city has become a breeding ground for suffering and injustice. It is beyond saving and must be allowed to die. This is the most important function of the Scarlet Crusade. It is one we've performed for decades. Lordaeron... must be destroyed.
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  #93  
Old 02-07-2010, 05:48 AM
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I always thought that Kael would be the perfect first known Fire Lich.
Youre not alone
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  #94  
Old 02-07-2010, 06:11 AM
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: Lordaeron's time has come. Like Stromgarde or Alterac before it the city has become a breeding ground for suffering and injustice. It is beyond saving and must be allowed to die. This is the most important function of the Scarlet Crusade. It is one we've performed for decades. Lordaeron... must be destroyed.
Ra's al Ghul?
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  #95  
Old 02-07-2010, 06:16 AM
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I think he just doesn't like RTSes in general. And that's fine, he's entitled to do so.
that's fine, but then he has no validity to say that the whole game, and specially concept suck.


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Originally Posted by SomeRandomEvilGuy View Post
The difficulty of the campaign says little about how good the gameplay is. Besides, it was clear it was his opinion, so why make such a big deal about it? Personally, I don't think the gameplay's that great myself. However, I quite enjoyed the campaign (more for the background than the actually gameplay though), which was, for the record, bloody easy.
it shows a lot when someone discredits the game just cuz they aren't good at it. i hate age of empires, i hate adventure games, but i don't go out and say stupid things like "mario sucks, and whole jumping on platform concept is retarded".


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So Illidan went back in time to summon the naga?
to me it seems that naga were always there, illidan just summoned some as his minions.
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Old 02-07-2010, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Timolas View Post
: Lordaeron's time has come. Like Stromgarde or Alterac before it the city has become a breeding ground for suffering and injustice. It is beyond saving and must be allowed to die. This is the most important function of the Scarlet Crusade. It is one we've performed for decades. Lordaeron... must be destroyed.

Illidan's Journal. October 12th: Gnome carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. Azeroth is afraid of me. I have seen its true face. The streets are extended gutters, and the gutters are full of blood, and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their stupidity and brutality will foam up about their waists, and all the mortals and weaklings will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll whisper: "You are not prepared, bitch."
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  #97  
Old 02-07-2010, 08:55 AM
SomeRandomEvilGuy SomeRandomEvilGuy is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
The Alliance did not stated naga as enemy until Garithos said so.
At the least, they took a human paladin prisoner in Dalaran, and were arguably invading Alliance land (i.e. Dalaran) when they were following Illidan.
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A few spellbreakers, archers and mages.
And Dragonhawk Riders, and Swordsmen, and Priests...
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How could he have plan? The emissary simply came here, told him to crush the undead, he thought it's ok, then the emissary called out all foot soldiers, cavalry and support teams report to the front lines. And the undead started attack almost immediately, without enought force the undead soon crushed the bases.
Then he clearly wasn't well prepared. If he didn't have a plan when his forces are already set up outside Dalaran and have several bases (when the hell did they get there in the first place anyway?) then he was an incompetent general. He let himself get stranded on an island against superior forces. His men likely wouldn't have been so far from Dalaran that Kael couldn't get there in time to fall back or initiate any form of plan (even if he was, he could have teleported).
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Yes Garithos wanted him to die like he said he wanted to execute everyone of them, he even stated it. They were not fighting in Dalaran, they were outside of it. So the undead won't take it simply by kill Kael and his man.
So Garithos was just waiting inside the city for Kael to die? Then why did he come with his forces after Kael defeated the undead? You're assuming that Garithos did it purely to get Kael killed and had no other motive; I personally suspect that he was fighting other Scourge forces which is why he needed more manpower.
Quote:
Garithos let Kael stay outside of the city, took most of his forces, let him crush an undead force that is massive and terrible. Is it like he will aid?
Is it likely that Garithos would let Dalaran fall or just be waiting inside Dalaran for Kael to die? I doubt it. Kael made a choice, but he more than the two you are saying he had (i.e. accept Naga aid or die before any reinforcements could get to him). From Kael's perspective, he likely didn't imagine Garithos would be forthcoming from aid, true. However, that just means he didn't have a plan and was leading his men on what he felt was a suicide mission, rather than trying to use tactics to win against superior numbers.
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Originally Posted by Nozdormu
You guys are turning it into some sort of argument, soon to be flaming, that has little to do with his death....
Yes, because the argument is so intense we are likely to begin flaming each other when thus far we have been discussing this calmly and logically.
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Originally Posted by Stackattack
it shows a lot when someone discredits the game just cuz they aren't good at it. i hate age of empires, i hate adventure games, but i don't go out and say stupid things like "mario sucks, and whole jumping on platform concept is retarded".
Except he never said he was bad at it or that he found it difficult. He said he didn't like the game, and so you started patronizing him. I know what I think shows more about the person. He is perfectly entitled to dislike the gameplay. After all, a large proportion of it is going around and fighting NPC's (creeps) that do nothing but attack nearby players rather than the other player(s). I'd rather fight the other player than be forced into killing random units that belong to neither of us in return for items and experience. Surely you would get such items from destroying a town, killing lords and knights, rather than a few dumb ogres or trolls (dragons I give you, but then Red Dragons probably shouldn't attack without warning anyway).

Well played, Garithos, well played. Perhaps I should ask you this question; just what were you doing after you took those soldiers away from Kael?
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  #98  
Old 02-07-2010, 09:39 AM
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He had plan for defend Dalaran, also ok to crush the undead before Garithos took out the major force. But suddenly he took out so many man especially the soldiers in the outside of the base. What is he gonna do? How could he have plan since he did not know there will be such a crazy order?

Garithos came because he got the message, he was here to arrest Kael and his man, to execute them.

Garithos even allied with the Forsaken then got killed.
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  #99  
Old 02-07-2010, 11:08 AM
Stackattack Stackattack is offline

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Except he never said he was bad at it or that he found it difficult. He said he didn't like the game, and so you started patronizing him. I know what I think shows more about the person. He is perfectly entitled to dislike the gameplay. After all, a large proportion of it is going around and fighting NPC's (creeps) that do nothing but attack nearby players rather than the other player(s). I'd rather fight the other player than be forced into killing random units that belong to neither of us in return for items and experience. Surely you would get such items from destroying a town, killing lords and knights, rather than a few dumb ogres or trolls (dragons I give you, but then Red Dragons probably shouldn't attack without warning anyway).
people that usually complain that certain game sucks are the ones that are bad at it. he didn't say he disliked the game, he said it sucked, and that concept is fail. if you can't see the difference between the two, then i can't really elaborate it any further. (you go and kill stupid creatures in WoW aswell, and they drop items aswell. you do so in diablo aswell. you dislike that part of the game, i respect that, but saying that it sucks, it fails, and trolling in other ways is just retarded)
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Old 02-07-2010, 12:40 PM
Nozdormu Nozdormu is offline

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people that usually complain that certain game sucks are the ones that are bad at it. he didn't say he disliked the game, he said it sucked, and that concept is fail. if you can't see the difference between the two, then i can't really elaborate it any further. (you go and kill stupid creatures in WoW aswell, and they drop items aswell. you do so in diablo aswell. you dislike that part of the game, i respect that, but saying that it sucks, it fails, and trolling in other ways is just retarded)
You know, if he really is a troll, youre doing EXACTLY as he want's you to do...
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