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  #4276  
Old 02-28-2018, 06:54 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Besides, the fat Kul'Tiran hit on another recurring problem with the Alliance: another minority race. They are just a portion of the Kul'Tiran, not their own thing. So they aren't that many. And, just like not all Gilnean are Worgen, we won't see them a lot because Blizzard can just throw in regular humans and say they also are Kul'Tiran. Same goes for the Void Elves, who are also another fraction of a race.
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  #4277  
Old 02-28-2018, 07:45 AM
taelon taelon is offline

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Thx for linking, I like some overhaul elements. But what I'm scared of is that they put so much extra's in that it's no longer larges plane fields because everywhere their is a outpost or tree.
Also I really dislike Stromgarde having a Stormwind look. Where are the Stromgarde colours. They should have also used a darker stone texture like they used on the great Wall. Give it some design elements hinting at it being the first great city of the humans in history and give them a big horse element in it because of the wide open fields area.

Storywise, I don't get why orcs can really fight Stromgarde, their just leftover from a freed interment camp (in nagrand). The trolls however, now they do pose a threat. Oh, I hope they adds some passageways to Hinterlands that the horde uses to transport goods and troops to the area.

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The shot that first shows the walled city with trees in it and than no trees and a barren crumbled wall is really imposing. It really shows the aftermath of a siege. I really like that element.

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  #4278  
Old 02-28-2018, 07:53 AM
taelon taelon is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
I can't wait to see kul tirans turning into fat bears, fat cats, fat sparrows, morbidly obese moonkin and so on.
Ha, so horde gets the night elf race and alliance gets the ogre race. hmmm

I know blizzard focuses on horde first and than alliance in development (apperently still), but I am a bit worried to also see special druid forms for Zandalar.
I am wondering how Kul Tiras will flesh out, it felt to me their was a huge oppertunity to do a lovecraftian story vibe with them.
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  #4279  
Old 02-28-2018, 08:48 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Don't forget that we might even see the incarnation version of those forms.

An incarnation dinokkoa would look damn sweet
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Old 02-28-2018, 10:35 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Don't forget that we might even see the incarnation version of those forms.

An incarnation dinokkoa would look damn sweet
Incarnation no longer uses those armored forms with Legion even with no artifact.
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  #4281  
Old 02-28-2018, 01:06 PM
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Besides, the fat Kul'Tiran hit on another recurring problem with the Alliance: another minority race. They are just a portion of the Kul'Tiran, not their own thing. So they aren't that many. And, just like not all Gilnean are Worgen, we won't see them a lot because Blizzard can just throw in regular humans and say they also are Kul'Tiran. Same goes for the Void Elves, who are also another fraction of a race.
I disagree about Void Elves. In fact, of the 4 Allied races we have right now, they are the only ones who have a future. Nightborne, Highmountain, and Lightforged have all already had their stories told. In fact they literally just ended. Void Elves on the other hand I am interested to see what happens with them because their story has not been told yet.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #4282  
Old 02-28-2018, 01:08 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I wonder why they didn't just do Zandalar as a whole expansion. You could easily add two or three more zones (a mountain region based off the Andes and Macchu Picchu, a grassland like the pampas, maybe a death themed zone for Bwonsamdi outside of him being shoved into Nazmir).
Faction war 2.0, with faction owned continents, is a larger hook for Blizzard, and if we're honest with ourselves, players.
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Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #4283  
Old 02-28-2018, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
I disagree about Void Elves. In fact, of the 4 Allied races we have right now, they are the only ones who have a future. Nightborne, Highmountain, and Lightforged have all already had their stories told. In fact they literally just ended. Void Elves on the other hand I am interested to see what happens with them because their story has not been told yet.
After the atrocious way they were introduced, I have my doubts if void elves have any future beyond Alleria doing stuff and a few void elf cameos here and there.
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  #4284  
Old 02-28-2018, 03:13 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
I disagree about Void Elves. In fact, of the 4 Allied races we have right now, they are the only ones who have a future. Nightborne, Highmountain, and Lightforged have all already had their stories told. In fact they literally just ended. Void Elves on the other hand I am interested to see what happens with them because their story has not been told yet.
I mean, I certainly hope I'm wrong, but in their Q&A talking about the allied races they basically lumped Void Elves in with the other races saying "we wanted to add races that got story in Legion" and their line of logic seems to be that Void Elves already had their story told through the whole Alleria and Locus Walker chapter. But honestly, imagine if Nightborne were introduced that exact same way, I think there'd be a similar level of dissatisfaction over their introduction and a desire to see them properly built up more to feel like their own race.
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  #4285  
Old 02-28-2018, 03:48 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
Incarnation no longer uses those armored forms with Legion even with no artifact.
I saw some armored moonkin in BGs
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  #4286  
Old 02-28-2018, 04:40 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
I disagree about Void Elves. In fact, of the 4 Allied races we have right now, they are the only ones who have a future. Nightborne, Highmountain, and Lightforged have all already had their stories told. In fact they literally just ended. Void Elves on the other hand I am interested to see what happens with them because their story has not been told yet.
I have to agree. The Void Elves just joined the Alliance. They were part of the Horde and got kicked out before they became Void Elves.

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I mean, I certainly hope I'm wrong, but in their Q&A talking about the allied races they basically lumped Void Elves in with the other races saying "we wanted to add races that got story in Legion" and their line of logic seems to be that Void Elves already had their story told through the whole Alleria and Locus Walker chapter.
Do you have that quote? Cause honestly, that makes zero sense considering that two of the Allied Races got zero story in Legion.

What story did the Dark Irons get? What story did the trolls get in Legion?

And the thing is, what are the Void Elves? They aren't a secret group of elves that have been hiding for tens of thousands of years (Nightborne) or a nation (Highmoutain) or a faction that seperated from another and have been absent for thousands of years (Lightborne).

They are a group of blood elves (and later high elves) who decided at some recent point, to study the Void much more in depth, kicked out of Silvermoon, then tricked and transformed in Void Elves who found that the Alliance was willing to help them and prevent them from sucumbing to the madness of the Void. Which if you think about it, also sounds like another race that is in the Alliance.

So storywise, their background isn't suppose to be a huge long slog, but rather it's pretty quick since it's just people messing around with magic that they just don't understand fully.

But as we get further into the OG and Void, which are the next Big Bads, then the Void Elves will have more story to tell since they are part of the Void. Just like Alleria. Now if we get a full on Void expansion and the velves aren't involved that much, then I will be pretty pissed.
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  #4287  
Old 02-28-2018, 04:52 PM
Arakiba Arakiba is offline

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Catching up on things, I had had an argument elsewhere with someone who said that the zandalari druid guardian form was going to be a bear, only their travel forms were dinos.

Well, I get the last laugh!

I do hope they go back and do up everyone else's forms though, that's just mean if not.
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  #4288  
Old 02-28-2018, 04:55 PM
Deicide Deicide is online now

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I mean, I certainly hope I'm wrong, but in their Q&A talking about the allied races they basically lumped Void Elves in with the other races saying "we wanted to add races that got story in Legion" and their line of logic seems to be that Void Elves already had their story told through the whole Alleria and Locus Walker chapter. But honestly, imagine if Nightborne were introduced that exact same way, I think there'd be a similar level of dissatisfaction over their introduction and a desire to see them properly built up more to feel like their own race.
Exactly! In the interviews, they made no effort to differentiate void elves from the other races. It's as if Alleria story was the same thing as void elf story.

For anyone wanting the exact quote, it's here, at 07:08 onward:


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Originally Posted by Arakiba View Post
Catching up on things, I had had an argument elsewhere with someone who said that the zandalari druid guardian form was going to be a bear, only their travel forms were dinos.

Well, I get the last laugh!

I do hope they go back and do up everyone else's forms though, that's just mean if not.
Maybe it was me, I did correct a lot of people on the druid forms, but, on my defense, I was basing my info on an interview in which Blizzard did say the combat forms would use the same base animals for everyone, so bear, cat and so on.
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  #4289  
Old 02-28-2018, 05:00 PM
Arakiba Arakiba is offline

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Maybe it was me, I did correct a lot of people on the druid forms, but, on my defense, I was basing my info on an interview in which Blizzard did say the combat forms would use the same base animals for everyone, so bear, cat and so on.
Nah I don't think it was you, unless it was under a different name (entirely possible, it being the wide internet and all). I can't recall if this happened on the official forum or on reddit or somewhere else though, memory about that is a bit hazy.

No worries, in any event.
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  #4290  
Old 02-28-2018, 05:16 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Exactly! In the interviews, they made no effort to differentiate void elves from the other races. It's as if Alleria story was the same thing as void elf story.
Umm.... the Alleria story is the same thing as the void elf story. Alleria is the first Void Elf. She took on the power of the Void and it changed her. That's why she is one of their racial leader.

The Void Elves took on the power of the Void and it changed them.

Alleria becoming a Void Elf and understanding how to control the Void and not let it control her is how she was able to teach the other Void Elves how to control the Void.

I can understand, the two of you wanted some huge back story, as big as the Highmoutain or Nightborne.

But honestly, there is no reason for the Void Elves to have a huge zone wide back story. In the end, all they are, are just blood/high elves, who recently played around with powers they didn't understand and were changed by it. The whole Void Elf phenomen, with Alleria, is a very recent phenomeon. Locus Walker spend countless years trying to find anyone who could wield the Void without going insane. Go listen to the audio drama for more background on their relationship. It wasn't until we go to Argus that Alleria finally decided to commit fully to the Void and we walked through that with her as she became a Void Elf.

And now she is giving that training to the Void elves. It's less about having some big void elf culture pre-exisiting and more about the student/teach dynamic and how it changes you with the Void. We now understand the power of the Void and why it drives people insane.
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  #4291  
Old 02-28-2018, 05:40 PM
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Umm.... the Alleria story is the same thing as the void elf story. Alleria is the first Void Elf. She took on the power of the Void and it changed her. That's why she is one of their racial leader.

The Void Elves took on the power of the Void and it changed them.

Alleria becoming a Void Elf and understanding how to control the Void and not let it control her is how she was able to teach the other Void Elves how to control the Void.

I can understand, the two of you wanted some huge back story, as big as the Highmoutain or Nightborne.

But honestly, there is no reason for the Void Elves to have a huge zone wide back story. In the end, all they are, are just blood/high elves, who recently played around with powers they didn't understand and were changed by it. The whole Void Elf phenomen, with Alleria, is a very recent phenomeon. Locus Walker spend countless years trying to find anyone who could wield the Void without going insane. Go listen to the audio drama for more background on their relationship. It wasn't until we go to Argus that Alleria finally decided to commit fully to the Void and we walked through that with her as she became a Void Elf.

And now she is giving that training to the Void elves. It's less about having some big void elf culture pre-exisiting and more about the student/teach dynamic and how it changes you with the Void. We now understand the power of the Void and why it drives people insane.
Alleria story is her story. If Umbric and his group never existed, Alleria story would be the same: she would have learned to control the void, and that's it. No blue elves.

The problem is that you can't make a group that is supposed to be a "new race" and just leave at that. We barely know anything about these elves, their limitations, how they operate, what they believe in, who leads them, their motivations.

It would be one thing if they were just scholars or casters doing research, as Umbric's story shows. But then, you'd not suddenly have rangers, warriors, monks and so on suddenly wanting to turn blue and to learn magic that they won't use. There must be more behind it to justify them being a "race" and not just some weird NPC cult.

As I extensively wrote about in the official forums, there's tons of questions about them that need answering. Like:

Can new elves be turned void elves?
Answer: It's implied that yes, but we don't know.
My guess: Yes, other elves can be turned, and are being recruited within both blood and high elves.

How are new void elves made?
Answer: We don't know.
My guess: Willing subjects, after some training to resist the whispers, experience a ritual in Telogrus that turns them.

Can void elves reproduce?
Answer: We don't know.
My guess: No idea.

What does the transformation mean? Does it change your senses? Does it make you stronger/faster/precognitive?
Answer: We don't know.
My guess: Only dedicated void users (Warlocks and Priests) really "master the void". Other void elves just enhance their strength/agility, or get new senses (like precognition skills).

Why are there warriors/hunters/monks among them?
Answer: We don't know.
My guess: As said above, the transformation can augment any skills.

Why would any sane elf want to be infused with dark power that is known to be heavily corruptive?
Answer: We don't know.
My guess: The void elves are more of a super-elite force than a real "race". The ones seeking the transformation do so to either study the void or serve the Alliance. Their "civilian" population (however tiny it may be) will end up being normal elves.

Why would blood elves abandon Silvermoon and all they love to become void-infused?
Answer: We don't know.
My guess: The void infusion frees the elf from magic addition. Those who were unhappy with the Silvermoon government but couldn't leave due to be "chained" to the Sunwell choose the transformation to overcome those limits.

Why would high elves, who were known to reject dark magics and even magic in general, want to turn void?
Answer: We don't know.
My guess: They are interested in freeing themselves from the Sunwell, as well as drawing more elves away from Silvermoon.

How many void elves are there?
Answer: We don't know.
My guess: Less than a hundred currently, but potentially growing.

What's their relationship with the Alliance high elves?
Answer: It's implied that they get along fine, but we don't know.
My guess: The Silver Covenant is working together with the ren'dorei, as their leaders are sisters, and some of them are joining the void elf ranks. However, the void elves aren't entirely trusted and are closely watched.

What exactly are Alleria's powers? What can she do, really?
Answer: We don't know. So far, it's "whatever the plot demands" ability.
My guess: I think Blizzard really intends to keep her powers as "whatever the plot demands" ability.

What are the void elves' innate powers?
Answer: Same as above.
My guess: I think the transformation enhances your innate skills and gives you a connection to the void. However, it doesn't get any better than that unless you delve further into void magic (Warlock/Priest).

What do other Alliance races, specially draenei and night elves, think of void elves?
Answer: We don't know, thought a few in Darnassus imply the night elves, for whatever reason, seem to tolerate them.
My guess: Again, the void elves aren't entirely trusted and are closely watched. The night elves only tolerate them as long as they are useful, but would gladly kick them out.

What seems to be direction the story will go with them?
Answer: We don't know.
My guess: I won't even try to guess that.

--------------

A race that is playable should not have so many basic questions left hanging.

Even small changes in the recruitment scenario could do wonders to flesh them out. As an example, I wrote an "improved" version of the recruitment questline that changes very little but adds a lot, including an origin for the void elf martial classes and giving that military core its own leader that could butt heads with Umbric in the future.

Other things that could be done:

1) Make a proper racial hub. Either: (a) Improve Telogrus Rift by adding constructions and more events (like a group of elves being properly tuteled in how to resist the void, another under the ritual to become void elves and so on); OR (b) Anchor Telogrus to a place in the world, and develop that place into a thalassian (high elf/void elf/exiled blood elf) comunity. Again, put events there, like elves being prepared to resist the void. My suggestion: revamp Quel'danil Lodge into a proper town. From there, you can access Telogrus proper.

2) Create a proper host of void elf characters, preferably a leader to represent each class. Put them in the racial hub, with gossip indicating their opinions on the transformation. Make some of them known former high or blood elves, so not all void elves are new faces.

3) Put more void elf NPCs in the main cities, with gossip text and/or events to show how they relate to the other races.

To me, void elves feel like an afterthought, something hastily cobbled together to fill a missing spot within a deadline. And, going from everything we know so far from BfA, they have no role beyond a cameo here and there. I've been searching for void elf NPCs and could find only two named ones for now: Shadeweaver Zarra and Riftblade Kelain.

That does not feel very promising.
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  #4292  
Old 02-28-2018, 06:47 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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  #4293  
Old 02-28-2018, 06:58 PM
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This discussion has no meaning, I am seeing void elves everywhere the alliance is invaded by them. I worry about the population balance
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Old 02-28-2018, 07:06 PM
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This discussion has no meaning, I am seeing void elves everywhere the alliance is invaded by them. I worry about the population balance
Dude, it's just perception bias.

Right now, the combined population of all allied races is little more than 0.6% total population. At 110, it's 1.1% of the population. It's less than Horde pandaren.

Also,Horde still outnumbers Alliance at level 110.

Wait till we are level 120 before judging success, ok?

And even if the entire player population suddenly went void elf, that wouldn't mean their lore is any less shitty.
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Old 02-28-2018, 07:12 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Do you have that quote? Cause honestly, that makes zero sense considering that two of the Allied Races got zero story in Legion.

What story did the Dark Irons get? What story did the trolls get in Legion?
I was specifically referring to the first four allied races that are currently playable now, and that's what made up the large majority of what they were discussing over the Q&A.

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And the thing is, what are the Void Elves? They aren't a secret group of elves that have been hiding for tens of thousands of years (Nightborne) or a nation (Highmoutain) or a faction that seperated from another and have been absent for thousands of years (Lightborne).

They are a group of blood elves (and later high elves) who decided at some recent point, to study the Void much more in depth, kicked out of Silvermoon, then tricked and transformed in Void Elves who found that the Alliance was willing to help them and prevent them from sucumbing to the madness of the Void. Which if you think about it, also sounds like another race that is in the Alliance.

So storywise, their background isn't suppose to be a huge long slog, but rather it's pretty quick since it's just people messing around with magic that they just don't understand fully.
And the end result of it is that the Horde get a much better written and well-established allied race whereas the Alliance got an allied race with no background lore, no culture, no interesting characters, and no engaging storyline that has any semblance of conflict.

We don't even get to see how Alleria trains and helps the Void Elves resist the temptations of the Void, it's just suddenly when you reach 110 all the drama over it is wiped away. "Good job at reaching max level <name>, just by doing that you're a master of the Void now". Oh, okay... well I don't know how exactly that happened but I guess it just happened off-screen.

Now compare that to Nightborne and how we see them struggle with the withered state, how they go about fixing it, and how you have a diverse cast of characters who you explore what it's like to be a Nightborne. Why does Blizzard think people are going to accept that one faction gets a race with much more depth than the other?

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But as we get further into the OG and Void, which are the next Big Bads, then the Void Elves will have more story to tell since they are part of the Void. Just like Alleria. Now if we get a full on Void expansion and the velves aren't involved that much, then I will be pretty pissed.
I hope so too, but I'm simply tired of Blizzard doing this with new Alliance races. It happens every single time the Alliance gets a new race. The exact same thing happened with Draenei and Worgen, two races with no background or build-up dropped out of nowhere on the Alliance that both had to wait many years to see some kind of involvement in the story whereas Horde got Blood Elves and Goblins that actually offered some worthwhile themes. At this rate I want to get off this ride, I want Blizzard to move on from this method of adding new races and say "Okay, we understand, Alliance deserve to have well-established races just like the Horde as well, we will strive to do better about this next time".

And even if Void Elves are involved in the main story, again it seems like Blizzard just removed all the personal conflict and drama that could have been had from them being Void-infused creatures who struggle to fight against the whispers. I'm perfectly fine with them conquering it in the end, but apparently Blizzard thinks it should be a storyline told off-screen and dealt with immediately because the Alliance can't have a single race with any form of personal conflict.

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This discussion has no meaning, I am seeing void elves everywhere the alliance is invaded by them. I worry about the population balance
I see them about as often as I see Night Elves or Humans, so they haven't really invaded the Alliance to that extreme of a degree as Blood Elves have on the Horde. And we're specifically discussing the lore behind them and not their in-game player population.
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  #4296  
Old 02-28-2018, 07:58 PM
Temo Temo is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
I disagree about Void Elves. In fact, of the 4 Allied races we have right now, they are the only ones who have a future. Nightborne, Highmountain, and Lightforged have all already had their stories told. In fact they literally just ended. Void Elves on the other hand I am interested to see what happens with them because their story has not been told yet.
The biggest potential for them is the many situations they create by virtue of being elves, exiles and VERY, VERY POWERFUL. Especially if Alleria still wants her homeland back and gets just enough people on her side to realize LorThemar is not widely beloved. The Alliance doesnt need to invade QuelThalas, they just need to support Alleria and convince the elves she is a better fit for leadership over LorThemar.

Last edited by Temo; 02-28-2018 at 08:06 PM..
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Old 02-28-2018, 10:15 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Right now, the combined population of all allied races is little more than 0.6% total population. At 110, it's 1.1% of the population. It's less than Horde pandaren.
Sauce?
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Old 03-01-2018, 12:26 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Catching up on things, I had had an argument elsewhere with someone who said that the zandalari druid guardian form was going to be a bear, only their travel forms were dinos.

Well, I get the last laugh!

I do hope they go back and do up everyone else's forms though, that's just mean if not.
The cat forms are already different, as well as the flight forms. The other Druids learned Druidism (besides Darkspear to a point) from elves. Why would their moonkin forms be different?
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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Old 03-01-2018, 02:29 AM
Deicide Deicide is online now

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Sauce?
I've posted it a few days back, it's from http://realmpop.com/

Their algorithm has not been updated to reckognize the allied races, so for the time being they are being lumped together in a "Unknown" category within race and faction distributions.

If you check only on levels 1-19, "Unknown" has 0% representation. Then the percentage explodes (around 5%) at level 20, diminishes fast as you rise in level, and finally grows again at level 110, the exact expected curve for allied races.
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Last edited by Deicide; 03-01-2018 at 02:38 AM..
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Old 03-01-2018, 09:39 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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When Deicide makes sense, he does make sense. As in, he makes an aweful lot of sense. More so than sense itself, dare I say.

It's all a matter of perspective, y'know.
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i literally just shit my pants with rage
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