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  #1726  
Old 11-24-2013, 11:49 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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If Blizzard actually played up on the idea that Varian Wrynn is usurping power form his allies like that it would make the Alliance seem more cutthroat political like it was in Warcraft II. There is so much potential in stuff like this but I don't think the Alliance fans would want it.
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  #1727  
Old 11-25-2013, 12:04 AM
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If Blizzard actually played up on the idea that Varian Wrynn is usurping power form his allies like that it would make the Alliance seem more cutthroat political like it was in Warcraft II. There is so much potential in stuff like this but I don't think the Alliance fans would want it.
Alliance fans don't know what they want, and Blizzard doesn't know what they want either.
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  #1728  
Old 11-25-2013, 01:11 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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It would be possible if Varian could actually succeed at that. I think most races, even those who can't hold a candle to Stormwind in terms of national power would go "Lol no".

The last time an Alliance nation tried something similar, and even then it wasn't even usurping actual power from other nations (which isn't really possible anyways), the Alliance ripped apart. The same would happen again.

Even if that would actually be a good thing for the story.

Last edited by Thunderbraid; 11-25-2013 at 01:14 AM..
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  #1729  
Old 11-25-2013, 01:19 AM
Avon Avon is offline

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I'd like to remind everyone that when Varian was added to the game and started showing the first signs of strongmanning, the "factionalist" Alliance fans generally supported "their king". Only the still-living peacekeeper bunch was wary of him, opposing the related "bringing War back into Warcraft" movement!
Actually I remember night elven fans back then going "fuck off he's not our king" even way back then and everyone lost their shit when Jaina called him "her king" or whatever in ice crown or was it ToC?

Last edited by Avon; 11-25-2013 at 03:38 AM..
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  #1730  
Old 11-25-2013, 01:23 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Actually I remember night elven fans back then going "fuck off he's not out king" even way back then and everyone lost their shit when Jaina called him "her king" or whatever in ice crown or was it ToC?
That happened when he actually started sending letters to the players signed as "Your King", which, I think, was pretty late into WOTLK.
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  #1731  
Old 11-25-2013, 06:17 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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That happened when he actually started sending letters to the players signed as "Your King", which, I think, was pretty late into WOTLK.
The quest that ends the battle for the wrathgate/undercity questline already had him calling himself the player's king.


I think that was really the part where Varian started to grate me. He single-handedly declares a war in the name of the alliance, despite no indication that he communicated with anyone but Jaina, who was against. He completely ignores his past characterization, his actual backstory (Varian only fought once in orc territory, and that was not some official arena fight. For his actual career, he was forced to fight in neutral ogre territory, after which a high-ranking member of the horde helped him escape) and the main issue at the moment (focusing his rhetoric solely on the orcs, rather than the forsaken). And then, he starts giving the player orders as the player's king.

Frankly, I think I could live with the high king thing. However, Varian is just a terrible high king.
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  #1732  
Old 11-25-2013, 06:54 AM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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As far as the Alliance was concerned, prior to the comic books' events Varian was at best a non-factor, and at worst an incompetent leader who'd allowed his kingdom to become riddled with dissent and threatened to severely damage ties between Stormwind and its allies.
Isn't this a bit harsh? First, it's not like he chose to be kidnapped and suffer from amnesia. These circumstances are completely beyond his control. He's the victim here, not the perpetrator and he was leaving to discuss an Alliance-Horde summit. He left his kingdom on behalf of the Alliance and he was kidnapped because of it. So technically, his kingdom in discord is the Alliance's fault. 2nd he did some good things even while he was away. He left Bolvar in charge of his kingdom, not Onyxia, which according to Jaina kept hope alive for the Alliance and kept his kingdom together. And he also helped them retain Thandol Span and Warsong Gulch and brought back the Idol of Remulous in the comic . So yeah... maybe the Alliance owes him a little gratitude and loyalty.

Quote:
Then he comes back, and suddenly the story's acting like he's always been "the guy". The Alliance's joint war effort in Northrend is suddenly his deal, despite him having been back on Stormwind's soil a grand total of five minutes before starting it.
As I said above, he put Bolvar in charge of the offensive and he has the strongest nation plus he won some goodwill from his comic adventures, I think that gives him some leverage of getting some Alliance aid.

(
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especially since based on the timeline, Onyxia's manipulations of his moods kicked in around the time Tiffin died, and so had nothing to do with Varian obsessively riding around the countryside hunting orcs when he should have been running his kingdom.)
Varian was riding around hunting orcs anyways before Tiffin died which needed doing anyways as it was a hindrance to the restoration project of his kingdom. Seriously, the House of Nobles had one simple job: to figure out the budget for the Stonemasons. If Varian can't delegate to them to handle that then what are they doing in the position of nobles anyways? It wasn't even all their fault though because everybody was being mindcontrolled.

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Instead he only had to prove himself able to control his demigod-blessed anger issues, and even that was presented more as "the chosen king proving he's got the chops for Goldrinn's favor" than as a man with a serious backlog of mistakes to correct and a track record of negligence to overcome. And most importantly, it was presented as a solely ideological proof of his leadership when on paper he'd already basically been promoted off-screen to High King immediately upon coming back from killing Onyxia.
I think he's proven himself more than this. You guys just don't give him credit.

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So he tells Jaina he has no forces to spare for attacking Orgrimmar
,
He said he needed time to rebuild the fleet didn't he? Are you talking about after Theramore was destroyed and Jaina wanted an immediate counterattack? Varian told her to calm down and give him some time but she wouldn't listen.

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And he withholds negotiations with the blood elves from Jaina even while telling her to exile their Sunreaver representation from Dalaran, only for him to freak out when she does exile them - just like he had Anduin and the player asking her to do - and it's framed as her not thinking ahead while he was doing just that.
Like Zael said, Jaina said she didn't want Dalaran involved in the war by declaring Dalaran neutral. Every indication pointed to Varian that she doesn't want anything to do with the conflict. Why is Varian obligated to share with her information that could put the blood elves in danger if Garrosh found out and Dalaran in danger if Garrosh found out it's leader had knowledge of manipulating one of the Horde's races into treason. Plus, Dalaran isn't safe with that kind of knowledge anyways as he wanted the Sunreavers gone because there are Horde loyalists in Dalaran. No it was Jaina's obligation to let him know before acting, not the other way around.

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And he stands around in A Little Patience tossing vague platitudes about not falling for Garrosh's tricks, not telling Tyrande that he's setting a trap to draw them out (and not telling the players either, for that matter; we basically have to guess what to do the first time we run the scenario), so that when the smoke clears she was the one harping on about acting rashly while he had a brilliant plan in mind all along. I mean, come on; we're to believe that Tyrande would have had a problem with the idea of setting an ambush, drawing the orcs out into the open, and hitting them when they didn't expect it? That's, like, basic Forest-Based Guerrilla Warfare 101 right there. It's just the sort of plan that would have been right up her alley - if he'd just told her what the plan was.
Quote:
Tyrande Whisperwind says: We have them cornered inside the temple. We should strike now!
King Varian Wrynn says: Things are rarely what they seem, Tyrande. And my son tells me this is a sacred place.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: All the more reason to purify it.
King Varian Wrynn says: They're defending a fixed position. I'm not going to play their game. We'll draw them out.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: You are wasting precious time.
King Varian Wrynn says: You three are my eyes and ears. Fan out! Prepare a defense!
He completely oriented her on what he was doing. I don't know what you are talking about.
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Last edited by Sports72Xtrm; 11-25-2013 at 07:03 AM..
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  #1733  
Old 11-25-2013, 08:22 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Sport is the most distinctive Ally fan nowadays.
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  #1734  
Old 11-25-2013, 09:51 AM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

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Id go with be a dragon. but dragons seem to be cannon fodder in recent expacs.
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  #1735  
Old 11-25-2013, 10:06 AM
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Blizzard has always done a poor job of separating players based on race and class so people shouldn't freak out when Varian acts like their King. Mekkatorque tried to order people to help him with Gnomer.
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  #1736  
Old 11-26-2013, 05:55 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Since Millenia asked me nicely I will post my plan.

Let's have the Forsaken establish a small settlement in either Westfall or Duskwood. One or two apothecaries and a mage. These guys order the Deathstalkers to kidnap a few farmers. The farmers will be brainwashed by the apothecaries and sent out to gather corpses from graveyards.
The bodies will be delivered to the basement where the Forsaken hide and the mage will teleport them to Tirisfal, so they could be raised in undeath by the Val'kyr. Lone guards could also be killed and delivered to the apothecaries.
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  #1737  
Old 11-26-2013, 06:04 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Since Millenia asked me nicely I will post my plan.

Let's have the Forsaken establish a small settlement in either Westfall or Duskwood. One or two apothecaries and a mage. These guys order the Deathstalkers to kidnap a few farmers. The farmers will be brainwashed by the apothecaries and sent out to gather corpses from graveyards.
The bodies will be delivered to the basement where the Forsaken hide and the mage will teleport them to Tirisfal, so they could be raised in undeath by the Val'kyr. Lone guards could also be killed and delivered to the apothecaries.
... okay, you got me, you troll.

But even I did it better, years ago on the story forums. Of course, the post is deleted now.

Get some Forsaken, and put on some of those miners' hats on them, along with pickaxes and shovels. Have them tunnel underneath Stormwind and steal corpses from the graveyards. And then imagine a Forsaken mistakenly popping out from the ground onto a street in front of a Stormwind guard, and then trying to bluff his/her way out of a sticky wicket!
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #1738  
Old 11-26-2013, 06:07 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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I would have written more on what happens with the farmers family and such, but you made me rush it.
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  #1739  
Old 11-26-2013, 06:08 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Some amount of Forsaken presence where they cut some deals with the local necromancers would have been part of my Duskwood rewrite. (Of course, it also has them losing and being back to the Swamp of Sorrows.)
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  #1740  
Old 11-26-2013, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
... okay, you got me, you troll.

But even I did it better, years ago on the story forums. Of course, the post is deleted now.

Get some Forsaken, and put on some of those miners' hats on them, along with pickaxes and shovels. Have them tunnel underneath Stormwind and steal corpses from the graveyards. And then imagine a Forsaken mistakenly popping out from the ground onto a street in front of a Stormwind guard, and then trying to bluff his/her way out of a sticky wicket!
Better still, bureaucratize the entire thing.

Create a Ministry of Human Resources, set up offices near various settlements, and extol the benefits of life in undeath. Hand out forms to interested parties which work like organ donor sheets. Die from an accident, crime, war or disease, and you'll be transported for reanimation (or to harvest your parts, depending on what you signed up for).

In return, your family, next of kin or beneficiary is compensated an agreed upon sum.
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  #1741  
Old 11-26-2013, 07:23 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Zul'dolf Hitroll View Post
Better still, bureaucratize the entire thing.

Create a Ministry of Human Resources, set up offices near various settlements, and extol the benefits of life in undeath. Hand out forms to interested parties which work like organ donor sheets. Die from an accident, crime, war or disease, and you'll be transported for reanimation (or to harvest your parts, depending on what you signed up for).

In return, your family, next of kin or beneficiary is compensated an agreed upon sum.
... but that isn't silly. Why must you put my humorous ideas through the mini-Buchenwald you call your posts?
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
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2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

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Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #1742  
Old 11-26-2013, 09:06 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Better still, bureaucratize the entire thing.

Create a Ministry of Human Resources, set up offices near various settlements, and extol the benefits of life in undeath. Hand out forms to interested parties which work like organ donor sheets. Die from an accident, crime, war or disease, and you'll be transported for reanimation (or to harvest your parts, depending on what you signed up for).

In return, your family, next of kin or beneficiary is compensated an agreed upon sum.
I've always believed that the best tactic for the Forsaken to use is to stop bemoaning undeath and start advertising its benefits.

"Do you often feel tired? Hungry? Sleepy?

You don't have to. Contact the Ministry of Human Resources today to learn why undeath might be right for you."
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  #1743  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:11 PM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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I've always believed that the best tactic for the Forsaken to use is to stop bemoaning undeath and start advertising its benefits.

"Do you often feel tired? Hungry? Sleepy?

You don't have to. Contact the Ministry of Human Resources today to learn why undeath might be right for you."
Side effects may include: Hungering for living flesh, pain from Holy Light magics, depression, irritability and rage, paranoia, disorientation, retardation, delusions of abandonment, violent and sociopathic tendencies.
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  #1744  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:15 PM
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Vanilla had its storytelling flaws, but scattered everywhere were hooks and personalities. Cataclysm streamlined things, but it made the Forsaken very uniform. Under all their Burtonazi flash, they are dull.
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  #1745  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:17 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Vanilla had its storytelling flaws, but scattered everywhere were hooks and personalities. Cataclysm streamlined things, but it made the Forsaken very uniform. Under all their Burtonazi flash, they are dull.
Did the Forsaken have unique personalities before cata?
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  #1746  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:45 PM
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Did the Forsaken have unique personalities before cata?
More than now. I'm not saying that they were not evil, just that they felt more varied.
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It'd be nice if they actually finally gave us things they cut or under utilized 10 years ago.
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  #1747  
Old 11-27-2013, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
... but that isn't silly. Why must you put my humorous ideas through the mini-Buchenwald you call your posts?
<3

Tell you what, there's room for your suggestion too.

Sometimes, the family won't release the deceased despite having received payment, so the Ministry has to send a crack team of diggers to fetch 'em from their resting places, leading to very confused looks from officers on the graveyard shift as entire graves get sucked underground with an audible, cartoonish pop.
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  #1748  
Old 11-27-2013, 09:04 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Side effects may include: Hungering for living flesh, pain from Holy Light magics, depression, irritability and rage, paranoia, disorientation, retardation, delusions of abandonment, violent and sociopathic tendencies.
You just mention those last parts really quickly while showing positive images of Forsaken having a good time and being productive.
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  #1749  
Old 11-27-2013, 09:21 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I now have this idea where a potion, made from processed Forsaken Blight, actually makes the Forsaken come to apparent life. They can feel, taste and eat... everything about their undead organs begins to function.

However, this Blight extract slowly destroys them form the inside and to keep using it they need new organs from the dead as replacements when old ones give out.

The extract may or may not be addictive, and it may or may not be demonic in nature.
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  #1750  
Old 11-27-2013, 09:26 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
I now have this idea where a potion, made from processed Forsaken Blight, actually makes the Forsaken come to apparent life. They can feel, taste and eat... everything about their undead organs begins to function.

However, this Blight extract slowly destroys them form the inside and to keep using it they need new organs from the dead as replacements when old ones give out.

The extract may or may not be addictive, and it may or may not be demonic in nature.
Blizzard already went with the addict schtick with the Blood Elves.
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