Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-11-2014, 12:52 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

Elune
Noitora's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,686
BattleTag: Chillman#1339

Default Effective Horde Leaders

Because Horde bias. Most vs. least effective Horde leaders.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-11-2014, 12:59 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

Banished
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,294

Default

Sylvanas.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-11-2014, 04:06 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,162

Default

Thrall. The guy's naive as a brick about his own people's history, but he brings victories when he's around.

Also Blackhand. The only orcish who successfully coordinated a Horde victory against a human kingdom.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-11-2014, 04:50 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

Elune
Millenia's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,836
BattleTag: Millenia#1386

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Thrall. The guy's naive as a brick about his own people's history, but he brings victories when he's around.
He also has so much charisma he managed to break off chunks of the Alliance, and his charisma even affects the perception of any organization he touches such that other people won't want to mess with it even despite the clear and present danger it poses to those people.
__________________
"All right, I'll get that kid to eat. Where's my screw driver and my plumber's helper? I'll open up his mouth and I'll shove it in."


The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-11-2014, 04:59 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

Elune
Fojar's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Toronto, Lordaeron
Posts: 17,442

Default

Which chunks of the Alliance did he break off? I suppose there's the Argent Crusade but that was Eitrigg combined with Tirion being a fool and writer fiat.
__________________
"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies� strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night� live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
You are right Fojar.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-11-2014, 05:00 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

Elune
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Trickster's Mighty Keep
Posts: 7,366

Default

Considering they are all attending a trial for war crimes without being accused, id say they are all fucking effective and cunning.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-11-2014, 05:03 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

Elune
Millenia's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,836
BattleTag: Millenia#1386

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Well, here's the thing. Look at the mixed success:
-Lordaeron - Led by Sylvanas - Complete Success
-Gilneas - Led by Sylvanas - Moderate Success
-Azshara - Led by the goblins - Complete success
-Ashenvale - Led by Garrosh - Failure
-Twilight Highlands - Led by Garrosh - Initial Failure, salvaged by unexpected assistance
-Stonetalon Mountains - Organized by Garrosh - Failure, dissolved by garrosh
-Barrens - Organized by Garrosh - Stalemate in Field of Giants, Failure in the assault on Nortwatch

While Garrosh has certainly given orders to start attacks that turned out to be succesful, none of the assaults he had a personal stake in came anywhere close to succeeding.



I'll give you Theramore (though I'd argue that it had nothing to do with Garrosh' personal abilities, but the sheer luck he had in that one blood elf spy), but the Vale wasn't even a target, and was basically just a coincidental side effect.
In Tides of War Garrosh cleared out most of the Alliance bases in the Barrens, except for Honor's Stand. The main Alliance offensive into Horde territory was, ultimately, crushed. He gets credit for that, even if it's shared with Baine and Vol'jin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Which chunks of the Alliance did he break off? I suppose there's the Argent Crusade but that was Eitrigg combined with Tirion being a fool and writer fiat.
The Silver Hand, Cenarion Circle, and, for a time, Dalaran.

In addition to, of course, preventing most anyone important in the Alliance, except for Jaina, from even thinking about ending the Horde, quite unlike how things went in WC2.
__________________
"All right, I'll get that kid to eat. Where's my screw driver and my plumber's helper? I'll open up his mouth and I'll shove it in."


The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.

Last edited by Millenia; 03-11-2014 at 05:09 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-11-2014, 05:33 PM
Avon Avon is offline

Arch-Druid
Avon's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Shadowforge City
Posts: 1,084

Default

Say what you want a bout Sylvanas but she has been very successful at building up the Forsaken from almost nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-11-2014, 05:50 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

Elune
Ganishka's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 8,297
BattleTag: Ganishka #1520

Default

Lor'themar Theron. He is an excellent military commander, and an honorable leader of his people who leads not out lust for power, but to best secure his people's future. Was badass enough to stand up to Jaina Proudmoore, even though he was magically outmatched.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Baras
A blind, deaf, comatose, lobotomy patient could feel MY ANGER!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowordfun
The next time you feel like you're about to be triggered, put the barrel in your mouth.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-11-2014, 05:55 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,551

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Thrall. The guy's naive as a brick about his own people's history, but he brings victories when he's around.

Also Blackhand. The only orcish who successfully coordinated a Horde victory against a human kingdom.
Wait, was the conquest of Azeroth/Stormwind completed before or after Doomhammer took power?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-11-2014, 06:02 PM
Vexander Vexander is offline

Eternal
Vexander's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,491

Default

Most Effective:

Lor'themar Theron
Sylvanas Windrunner

Least Effective:

Garrosh Hellscream
Gallywix
Gamon
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-11-2014, 10:31 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,162

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Wait, was the conquest of Azeroth/Stormwind completed before or after Doomhammer took power?
Sources differ, but it's probably Doomhammer according to current lore. HOWEVER, I'm going to factor in the following points:

1) Current lore constantly tells us Stormwind wouldn't have fallen without Garona's assassination of King Llane. This was done under Gul'dan's initiative, and Gul'dan was the political leader behind Blackhand's military.

2) Stormwind was only the final Horde victory. There had to be a string of victories and forward momentum beforehand.

3) Look at the Second War. Just look at the Second War. Not a single decisive Horde victory, other than burning down Blackwood. That's what happens when Doomhammer gets full strategic control.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-12-2014, 04:06 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

Elune
Drusus's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Greymane's Offensive
Posts: 8,699

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
Most Effective:

Lor'themar Theron
Sylvanas Windrunner

Least Effective:

Garrosh Hellscream
Gallywix
Gamon
Garrosh, for all of his bullshit, was pretty damn successful. It's just that he went too far off the deep end. Maybe if he didn't try to kill Vol'jin he'd have been doing a lot better right now.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feltongue View Post
you're the edgemaster 9000 with the leet memes who's close second to Gurzog in shitposting.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-12-2014, 05:29 PM
Vexander Vexander is offline

Eternal
Vexander's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,491

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Garrosh, for all of his bullshit, was pretty damn successful. It's just that he went too far off the deep end. Maybe if he didn't try to kill Vol'jin he'd have been doing a lot better right now.
I don't know. None of his campaigns really won. In Cataclysm, even if its not obvious, he pretty much lost all of his battles. In Wolfheart, we was thwarted by the Worgen. His Twilight Highlands intro made him look inept and was won without him. About the only victory he had was in Tides of War, otherwise he lost or has been pushed back continually. His ability to effectively lead the Horde was likewise proven to be pretty awful.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-12-2014, 05:35 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 12,052
BattleTag: Pyrolithic#1538

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
I don't know. None of his campaigns really won. In Cataclysm, even if its not obvious, he pretty much lost all of his battles. In Wolfheart, we was thwarted by the Worgen. His Twilight Highlands intro made him look inept and was won without him. About the only victory he had was in Tides of War, otherwise he lost or has been pushed back continually. His ability to effectively lead the Horde was likewise proven to be pretty awful.
Hell, he lost in Theramore too, considering his forces lost control of Dustwallow and Northwatch even after the bomb was dropped.

It's a salient point of Cataclysm that Garrosh's actions were met with almost universal failure.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-12-2014, 06:15 PM
Galka Galka is offline

Druid of the Claw
Galka's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Iowa
Posts: 121
BattleTag: Galka#1452

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
3) Look at the Second War. Just look at the Second War. Not a single decisive Horde victory, other than burning down Blackwood. That's what happens when Doomhammer gets full strategic control.
Did you read Tides of Darkness? It's heavily implied that Doomhammer would have taken Lordaeron had not decided to take the high road divert troops to stop Gul'dan. You can say no decisive victories, but he was less than days from winning the second war completely, and that's far more important.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-12-2014, 06:33 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Does the Horde ever succeed at anything?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-12-2014, 06:38 PM
Mark_Romaneck Mark_Romaneck is offline

Eternal
Mark_Romaneck's Avatar
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Mexico, Jalisco, Guadalajara
Posts: 3,527

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Does the Horde ever succeed at anything?
I dont know ask Cenarius
__________________
Quote:
Megatron: You've forgotten something else: I am your prisoner. I've been granted conditional bail while we look for the Knights of Cybertron. Where in my bail terms does it say—where precisely does it say—that I have to risk my life to save a handful of strangers? Where does it say that?

Skids taps Megatron's Autobot badge.

Skids: Right. There. What does that badge even mean to you? How has wearing it forced you to modify your behaviour? I'm serious! How has being an Autobot in any way prevented you from doing exactly what you want? Because if the answer is "it hasn't"—then nothing you've said or done in the last six months counts for anything.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-12-2014, 06:38 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

Elune
Noitora's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,686
BattleTag: Chillman#1339

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Does the Horde ever succeed at anything?
Yes.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-12-2014, 06:46 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

The Horde just seems really irresponsible and clumsy.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-12-2014, 06:48 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

Elune
Noitora's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,686
BattleTag: Chillman#1339

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
The Horde just seems really irresponsible and clumsy.
Not really.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-12-2014, 06:50 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

It is true. The Horde isn't malicious but they causes a lot of pain and suffering to people around them.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-12-2014, 06:52 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

Elune
Fojar's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Toronto, Lordaeron
Posts: 17,442

Default

The two Horde races that hurt others the most are also two races that were never supposed to exist on Azeroth.
__________________
"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies� strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night� live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
You are right Fojar.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-12-2014, 06:53 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

Elune
Millenia's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,836
BattleTag: Millenia#1386

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Hell, he lost in Theramore too, considering his forces lost control of Dustwallow and Northwatch even after the bomb was dropped.
Didn't he purposely pull back from Dustwallow, considering it's just a swamp?

Either way, he cleared out most of the human problem in the Barrens, so it's still only slightly less of a success compared to Sylvanas's Gilneas campaign.
__________________
"All right, I'll get that kid to eat. Where's my screw driver and my plumber's helper? I'll open up his mouth and I'll shove it in."


The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
critical thinking, horde bias

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.