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  #9001  
Old 03-22-2017, 07:50 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Moderating requires research every once in awhile to update yourself on coded language. ADL has a great list of older references, but KnowYourMeme has become an accidental repository of newer stuff.

99% of the time it's not about catching users who are being racist, but making sure that spammers aren't adding in freaky shit beyond just the ads. Was a problem back in the day, but now not so much.

That reminds me, please report bots posting spam messages on your profiles. I need to do a clean-up of that shit and figuring out where to start isn't easy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnahar View Post
Unasked for opinion, I think it's worth being careful giving more weight to phrases that the internet has changed from their literal meaning to other harmless ones. Noitora probably knows where I'm coming from, "Kys", is thrown around in a way which certainly doesn't mean for one to take their own lives. Just like calling someone a monkey, in context doesn't make it automatically a racist term. If I were call to call Noitora a monkey, out of context you could assume its a racist term since he's a black man. But he and I know (in our love torn hearts) that it's because he's a boosted monkey stuck in Bronze and makes bad League of Legends decisions in game. Same with chimping out.

Just saying, that repetition in case of some phrases shouldn't be taken into account for its offensiveness, or sentiment. Kys is often just used as a dismissive phrase, another way for saying "Go away", and as harsh as Frosty can be there's really no reason to believe he actually wants Mutters to kill himself.
1) No worry about prefacing your posts with "unasked for". As long as it's written without threats or aggressive notes, it's assumed to be in good faith...and also assuming Staff haven't made a "discussion on this topic is closed" statement either.

2) I agree, context is key. Unfortunately, here the context is extremely muddled and recent history between user groups (liberal and conservative) is on the far side of friendly. Whether it's intended as a one-off major insult or a colloquially transferred minor one, the overall history between users means that confusion of severity would not amount to a major change in how strongly the insult was meant to be taken.

Frostwolf's consistent statement that he'd be willing to take a hit if Kakwakas was also banned basically confirms that version of events.

3) In terms of your relationship with Noitora and other users relationships between each other, I try to stick to case histories before I make a judgment, and I hope other staff do as well. Doesn't mean I like how you guys express your relationship (because it can and does get misconstrued by other users who aren't aware), but given what facts I have available, there's no reason to take issue with it.

Now if it came out that a user was posing as a race/sex/culture/etc they weren't and swearing up and down the line about said race, then it'd be pretty much game-over for them. I should note that no one is suspected or has been found to do this (at least to my knowledge), but it's still a necessary statement.
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  #9002  
Old 03-22-2017, 08:57 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Don't let white supremacists take our innocent words away.
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  #9003  
Old 03-22-2017, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Don't let white supremacists take our innocent words away.
It isn't one group, it's the evolution of language in polarizing cultures.

Innocent words will always become less so as time goes on. You or your descendants will wake up one morning and find out that something innocuous like "apple tart" has become a derogatory phrase. Down the road, "apple" alone carries the connotation. Then when apple is associated with something, it starts carrying the connotation.

Three hundred years from now, "ground cider" could be the worst insult a woman could hear, all because some jackass with minimal knowledge of the Bible associated eve with apples, apples with the downfall of men, and started using it as a stand-in for his ex-wife, who happened to be as American as apple pie.
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  #9004  
Old 03-22-2017, 10:25 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
It isn't one group, it's the evolution of language in polarizing cultures.

Innocent words will always become less so as time goes on. You or your descendants will wake up one morning and find out that something innocuous like "apple tart" has become a derogatory phrase. Down the road, "apple" alone carries the connotation. Then when apple is associated with something, it starts carrying the connotation.

Three hundred years from now, "ground cider" could be the worst insult a woman could hear, all because some jackass with minimal knowledge of the Bible associated eve with apples, apples with the downfall of men, and started using it as a stand-in for his ex-wife, who happened to be as American as apple pie.
It's like how "silly" used to have a positive meaning (as in, morally innocent).
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  #9005  
Old 03-23-2017, 07:07 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnahar View Post
Unasked for opinion, I think it's worth being careful giving more weight to phrases that the internet has changed from their literal meaning to other harmless ones. Noitora probably knows where I'm coming from, "Kys", is thrown around in a way which certainly doesn't mean for one to take their own lives. Just like calling someone a monkey, in context doesn't make it automatically a racist term. If I were call to call Noitora a monkey, out of context you could assume its a racist term since he's a black man. But he and I know (in our love torn hearts) that it's because he's a boosted monkey stuck in Bronze and makes bad League of Legends decisions in game. Same with chimping out.

Just saying, that repetition in case of some phrases shouldn't be taken into account for its offensiveness, or sentiment. Kys is often just used as a dismissive phrase, another way for saying "Go away", and as harsh as Frosty can be there's really no reason to believe he actually wants Mutters to kill himself.
For the record, I'd sooner think you're being racist if you call me a monkey. Also why is AP Galio jungle a thing?
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  #9006  
Old 03-23-2017, 10:02 AM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
For the record, I'd sooner think you're being racist if you call me a monkey.
Pretty much why "friendly" interactions are a nightmare for mods.

If it came up, basically we'd just PM you to check whether there was precedence to that usage and if it was an misguided attempt at being friendly (or malicious, or any variation where it was considered inappropriate by you), if neither then PM the other party to check for their intent and knowledge of said epithets, check user histories, then go from there.

A lot of work for little reward, thus why it's not an encouraged thing in any online community where written communication is the only option.
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Also why is AP Galio jungle a thing?
He has damage reduction, dash, high localized aoe damage that jungle mobs don't run out of, and an ultimate that he can use for perfect counter-ganks.

I mean, it's not optimal, but his current tuning makes it functional enough. A few good nerfs to his skills and their jungle interactions and he should be kicked out of it.
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  #9007  
Old 03-23-2017, 10:21 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
Now if it came out that a user was posing as a race/sex/culture/etc they weren't and swearing up and down the line about said race, then it'd be pretty much game-over for them. I should note that no one is suspected or has been found to do this (at least to my knowledge), but it's still a necessary statement.
Fuck no to that kind of backwards thinking. You don't get a free pass on slurs just because you belong to a group.

A huge chunk of my family is hispanic (including my children). If Omacron or Frostwolf suddenly became hateful of their own races and started throwing down comments that a white user would get banned for, they shouldn't be able to plead immunity.

EDIT: They never have acted this way, of course. Though I have gotten "destroy all humans" vibes from them...
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  #9008  
Old 03-23-2017, 10:37 AM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Fuck no to that kind of backwards thinking. You don't get a free pass on slurs just because you belong to a group.

A huge chunk of my family is hispanic (including my children). If Omacron or Frostwolf suddenly became hateful of their own races and started throwing down comments that a white user would get banned for, they shouldn't be able to plead immunity.

EDIT: They never have acted this way, of course. Though I have gotten "destroy all humans" vibes from them...
I've said this once I'm saying it again. Hispanic is not a race REEEEEEEE!!!

If people are referring to Mexicans it's "Mestizo".

The southern half of Brazil is white but they'd be classified as "hispanic."
Northern half is a mix of Aboriginal, Mestizo, and Black IIRC.

It's a cultural thing.
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  #9009  
Old 03-23-2017, 10:49 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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I say this as someone from a "Hispanic" family... it's a linguistic term. Hispanic is equivalent to "Anglophone."
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  #9010  
Old 03-23-2017, 11:00 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taintedmage View Post
I've said this once I'm saying it again. Hispanic is not a race REEEEEEEE!!!

If people are referring to Mexicans it's "Mestizo".

The southern half of Brazil is white but they'd be classified as "hispanic."
Northern half is a mix of Aboriginal, Mestizo, and Black IIRC.

It's a cultural thing.
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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
I say this as someone from a "Hispanic" family... it's a linguistic term. Hispanic is equivalent to "Anglophone."
You're both right in a sense, but you also know it's more complicated than that. I have two brother-in-laws. They both have "brown" skin, but only one of them can speak a little Spanish. And his serious girlfriend doesn't know any Spanish at all.

They all mark "White Hispanic" or just "Hispanic" on identity. So will my children.

EDIT: Added to that, I have a number of friends who know Spanish but would never be identified as Hispanic.

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  #9011  
Old 03-23-2017, 11:06 AM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Yup, Hispanics are definitely not an individual "race". Socio-cultural is the predominant grouping, and even then (as TM said) there are huge divisions.

And in terms of the old "What expletives from your own cultural group are allowed?" argument, the point is that certain colloquialisms that are fine in one group won't be in another. Some cultural parsing has to occur, otherwise we end up white washing the English language. So, intent/context has to become the name of the game. Some words are so problematic (the eternal example of "nigger" comes to mind) that some groups just shouldn't use them at all (non-blacks in this example). Those who can use them still have to use the intent/context barrier anyway.

I use expletives and stereotypes of my own race, but the intent/context always matters. I never use it in a directly hateful way, and when I do criticize my culture those epithets and stereotypes aren't invoked. However, when jokingly referring to stereotypes that people have of my culture (especially ones that don't apply), or just having fun, invoking them can occur in a way that satirizes the stereotype. For epithets that have a binary usage (good for friends, bad for enemies), then context becomes even more difficult to discern, but still applies.

Most importantly, refusal to acknowledge a stereotype or epithet exists (by virtue of banning their usage) is in and of itself a terrible decision. Not just for a white washing aspect, but because then viable criticism of groups is stifled. If you can't mention a stereotype that's true (e.g. Mid-East culture can be extremely misogynistic), then you can't work towards fixing it.

So, in sum, Staff has to take context/intent into account alongside other factors before action is taken. Otherwise, to wholesale ban words from ever being used is both an impossible and unwise endeavor. Or at least for now anyway (god help us if we invent a word that's so strong no one should ever use it).
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  #9012  
Old 03-23-2017, 11:14 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
Yup, Hispanics are definitely not an individual "race". Socio-cultural is the predominant grouping, and even then (as TM said) there are huge divisions.

And in terms of the old "What expletives from your own cultural group are allowed?" argument, the point is that certain colloquialisms that are fine in one group won't be in another. Some cultural parsing has to occur, otherwise we end up white washing the English language. So, intent/context has to become the name of the game. Some words are so problematic (the eternal example of "nigger" comes to mind) that some groups just shouldn't use them at all (non-blacks in this example). Those who can use them still have to use the intent/context barrier anyway.

I use expletives and stereotypes of my own race, but the intent/context always matters. I never use it in a directly hateful way, and when I do criticize my culture those epithets and stereotypes aren't invoked. However, when jokingly referring to stereotypes that people have of my culture (especially ones that don't apply), or just having fun, invoking them can occur in a way that satirizes the stereotype. For epithets that have a binary usage (good for friends, bad for enemies), then context becomes even more difficult to discern, but still applies.

Most importantly, refusal to acknowledge a stereotype or epithet exists (by virtue of banning their usage) is in and of itself a terrible decision. Not just for a white washing aspect, but because then viable criticism of groups is stifled. If you can't mention a stereotype that's true (e.g. Mid-East culture can be extremely misogynistic), then you can't work towards fixing it.

So, in sum, Staff has to take context/intent into account alongside other factors before action is taken. Otherwise, to wholesale ban words from ever being used is both an impossible and unwise endeavor. Or at least for now anyway (god help us if we invent a word that's so strong no one should ever use it).
The bolded section is your problem. You can't enforce a ban only on certain groups of us.

Inability to verify is only the start of your problems there.
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  #9013  
Old 03-23-2017, 11:22 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taintedmage View Post
I've said this once I'm saying it again. Hispanic is not a race REEEEEEEE!!!

If people are referring to Mexicans it's "Mestizo".

The southern half of Brazil is white but they'd be classified as "hispanic."
Northern half is a mix of Aboriginal, Mestizo, and Black IIRC.

It's a cultural thing.
Not quite. A mestizo is someone of mixed Spanish and Native American descent. There are many mestizos in Mexico, but there are also Mexicans of other extractions (all European, all Native American, African-Native mix, etc). Likewise you have mestizos throughout Spanish-speaking Latin America, not just Mexico.
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  #9014  
Old 03-23-2017, 11:43 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Brazilians are also Lusophones, Hispanic generally refers to someone of some descent from the former-Spanish Empire. Hispanic is a term like Latin American, which doesn't convey nearly enough information.

Personally, I'd like 'Hispanics' to be broken down by ethnic group on US census data.
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  #9015  
Old 03-23-2017, 11:52 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
Brazilians are also Lusophones, Hispanic generally refers to someone of some descent from the former-Spanish Empire. Hispanic is a term like Latin American, which doesn't convey nearly enough information.

Personally, I'd like 'Hispanics' to be broken down by ethnic group on US census data.
As in, someone descended from African-Mexicans would simply be listed as African-American? Would mestizo be its own category (perhaps due to sheer population size)?

Calling everyone from Latin America Hispanic is sort of like referring to all East Asians as Confucians.
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  #9016  
Old 03-23-2017, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
I say this as someone from a "Hispanic" family... it's a linguistic term. Hispanic is equivalent to "Anglophone."
Technically, that'd hispanophone, but near as I can tell, that term only sees academic use (and even then, only in a few circles).

That said, "spic" is (seems to me, anyhow) a reference to hispanic, and is used as a derogatory term for Spanish speaking South and Central Americans, so...
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  #9017  
Old 03-23-2017, 12:02 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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I once got into a fistfight by insisting the Quebecois were Latino.
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  #9018  
Old 03-23-2017, 12:19 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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I once got into a fistfight by insisting the Quebecois were Latino.
Ech.

On the one hand, French Canadians (Québec included) speak a Romance language, so you can make the claim that they're Latin Americans. On the other hand, the term Latino typically refers (perhaps erroneously, and therein lies the rub) to Spanish-speaking or descended persons, which (by and large) isn't a label which can be accurately pinned on French Canada.

I would hardly consider such a disagreement worth starting a fistfight, but I can understand why someone might feel that were mischaracterizing them.

Now, insisting the French Canadian were Québécois?
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  #9019  
Old 03-23-2017, 12:38 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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Now, insisting the French Canadian were Québécois?
Fite me irl.
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  #9020  
Old 03-23-2017, 12:53 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
The bolded section is your problem. You can't enforce a ban only on certain groups of us.

Inability to verify is only the start of your problems there.
Inability to verify is pretty much why a certain amount of faith has to be taken with all users claims about their personal lives.

Also, reread that sentence again. I used "shouldn't" instead of "can't" because while they technically can use an epithet, doing so is more likely to get them in a world of trouble than avoiding it. If they manage to use it in a way that's net-positive for a community, I'll be glad to see that the word has evolved a non-negative variation. Otherwise, context/intent makes it more likely that it's going to be the root of a flame war and thus cause punishment.
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  #9021  
Old 03-23-2017, 01:14 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Fite me irl.
Precisely. Being incorrectly labeled as Québécois just because I speak French and live in Canada is a pet peeve of mine, but it's not something so offensive to me that I'd call it harassment if anyone here were to do it. It's not something that ever gets elevated to beyond a mild annoyance because for the most part, people outside Canada forget there are French Canadians outside Quebec.

Quebec forgets that sometimes, too.
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  #9022  
Old 03-23-2017, 01:48 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Precisely. Being incorrectly labeled as Québécois just because I speak French and live in Canada is a pet peeve of mine, but it's not something so offensive to me that I'd call it harassment if anyone here were to do it. It's not something that ever gets elevated to beyond a mild annoyance because for the most part, people outside Canada forget there are French Canadians outside Quebec.

Quebec forgets that sometimes, too.
You New Brunswick?
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  #9023  
Old 03-23-2017, 01:54 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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You New Brunswick?
A solid guess, but nah. Franco-Ontarian.
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  #9024  
Old 03-23-2017, 03:25 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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For the record, I'd sooner think you're being racist if you call me a monkey. Also why is AP Galio jungle a thing?
Yeah but you think I'm racist when I eat the sweet creamy white part of the Oreo before I eat the dry black cookie parts. Also, don't care, Urgots time has finally come!
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Old 03-23-2017, 03:31 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Too much ambiguity is too easy to abuse.
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