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  #27751  
Old 05-13-2017, 02:27 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
Well, someone hired you, didn't they?
Stop that.


Also, even assuming someone doesn't think the disabled deserve to be paid a decent wage simply by virtue of their conditions (which is BS because even if a person can't articulate properly, or can't do other things, that doesn't devalue the labor they can do), do you really want employers to be able to say "Well you've got a disability so we're going to pay you shit wages" I mean, good luck suing them for fair treatment.

Technically this is how it is already in the US and that's bad.

https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...-disabilities/
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  #27752  
Old 05-13-2017, 02:28 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Says the talentless Chair Force (isn't it?) Grunt, kek.

That's cute. Try again though, I couldn't hear you over my far-above-average salary.
Maybe I've enjoyed being a welfare queen for the past 7 years. Thanks for the paycheck and free healthcare.
Also I'm POG as fuck.
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  #27753  
Old 05-13-2017, 02:49 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I didn't say that.

But have you ever actually seen these sorts of retards in real life? (That word is what they are, not used as an insult. Saying they have "Learning Difficulties" is patronising as fuck, imo.) Most of the ones I've come across, even if they're generally pleasent, are utterly unsuitable to work, certainly not with the public. Given that, why should they be paid a standard wage when, if they are hired, they're going to need a huge amount of support (Read: this costs money)?
You know they don't like being called that though, so it's still rude to call them that even if you feel it's 'accurate'.

Yes I've seen them, no that doesn't change the fact that they should be paid the same wage as anyone else doing the job.

If you pay people that have needs other citizens don't less, then you're effectively consigning them to living in squalor, or homelessness / starvation eventually, since they're already under other pressures most people don't have.
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Old 05-13-2017, 03:07 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by Butterscrawl View Post
If you pay people that have needs other citizens don't less, then you're effectively consigning them to living in squalor, or homelessness / starvation eventually, since they're already under other pressures most people don't have.
I think that the UK already has assistance programs though. This is wage in addition to fairly significant government assistance, not wage as a 'this is all you have to live'. From what I remember of similar projects in my home country, the goal of projects like these isn't 'make sure people with some sort of disability have enough money to live', because that's usually already been handled, but more of a 'make sure people with some sort of disability don't withdraw from society'.
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  #27755  
Old 05-13-2017, 03:07 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I think you are in the wrong here Hammer. If they can't do a job then don't hire them for that job and the ones they are hired for they should be paid the full amount. Unless there is some govt. mandate to hire disabled people in which case you have something of a point even if you are a bit harsh on them.
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  #27756  
Old 05-13-2017, 03:11 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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You would become anomic without a job!
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  #27757  
Old 05-13-2017, 04:00 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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On an unrelated note, how about that eurovision?

I thought Moldavia was the most fun. Too many songs have become pop-sludge. On the other hand, one of the least sludgy songs was Spain's, and that very deservedly came in last.
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Old 05-13-2017, 04:02 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Eurovision was the thing where beard woman won right?
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  #27759  
Old 05-13-2017, 04:05 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Eurovision was the thing where beard woman won right?
Eurovision is the contest that introduced this work of art to the world.
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  #27760  
Old 05-13-2017, 04:19 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
On an unrelated note, how about that eurovision?

I thought Moldavia was the most fun. Too many songs have become pop-sludge. On the other hand, one of the least sludgy songs was Spain's, and that very deservedly came in last.
Was Moldavia the one with the howling? Or was it Romania? My mom liked that one best.

I am not a Eurosong guy though. I don't even know the big majority of our songs the last eight or so years let alone other countries' songs.
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  #27761  
Old 05-13-2017, 04:39 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
I think that the UK already has assistance programs though. This is wage in addition to fairly significant government assistance, not wage as a 'this is all you have to live'. From what I remember of similar projects in my home country, the goal of projects like these isn't 'make sure people with some sort of disability have enough money to live', because that's usually already been handled, but more of a 'make sure people with some sort of disability don't withdraw from society'.
Even so, there's not always a guarantee that a diabled person has access to those, a better solution would be to give Employers tax breaks for employing disabled workers.
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  #27762  
Old 05-13-2017, 04:50 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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'Disabled' workers are usually better than some punk kid that fights with his boss or doesn't show up for work or texts all day. They show up and do their job with enthusiasm and pride.
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  #27763  
Old 05-13-2017, 05:17 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by Butterscrawl View Post
Even so, there's not always a guarantee that a diabled person has access to those, a better solution would be to give Employers tax breaks for employing disabled workers.
The chance of a sufficiently disabled person having access to those things is really good. It ain't the US over here, we're a bunch of damn dirty socialists, remember? With tax breaks, you're still relying on market forces, which are variable, as well as relying on companies to follow the intent of the law rather than look for loopholes.
We do do something akin to that in addition to the assistance, by giving tax breaks to companies that create jobs specifically for the mentally handicapped. There's a couple of alterations that can be made to labor processes that make them much more accessible to most kinds of mentally limited individuals, and the end result is surprisingly effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Was Moldavia the one with the howling? Or was it Romania? My mom liked that one best.

I am not a Eurosong guy though. I don't even know the big majority of our songs the last eight or so years let alone other countries' songs.
I think the howling was Hungary. Moldavia was the one with Epic Sax Guy 2.0.
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  #27764  
Old 05-13-2017, 06:35 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
The chance of a sufficiently disabled person having access to those things is really good. It ain't the US over here, we're a bunch of damn dirty socialists, remember? With tax breaks, you're still relying on market forces, which are variable, as well as relying on companies to follow the intent of the law rather than look for loopholes.


We do do something akin to that in addition to the assistance, by giving tax breaks to companies that create jobs specifically for the mentally handicapped. There's a couple of alterations that can be made to labor processes that make them much more accessible to most kinds of mentally limited individuals, and the end result is surprisingly effective.
That's fair, I can see the argument even if I'm wary of it in principle.

That sounds like an interesting program.
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  #27765  
Old 05-13-2017, 07:07 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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The US has social services for the disabled.
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  #27766  
Old 05-14-2017, 01:39 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by Butterscrawl View Post
That's fair, I can see the argument even if I'm wary of it in principle.

That sounds like an interesting program.
The main problem is that the jobs that the mentally handicapped are capable will become sparse with increased automation.
My workplace does various programs which gives the handicapped some menial labour to do. These guys and gals are not Downs, probably more a type of higher functional autism.
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  #27767  
Old 05-14-2017, 02:50 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
I think that the UK already has assistance programs though. This is wage in addition to fairly significant government assistance, not wage as a 'this is all you have to live'. From what I remember of similar projects in my home country, the goal of projects like these isn't 'make sure people with some sort of disability have enough money to live', because that's usually already been handled, but more of a 'make sure people with some sort of disability don't withdraw from society'.
This.

Most of the people I've met in the UK are in no danger of "being on the street" - they already have social/financial support from charities or the Government (usually both tbh)

@CH you know full well these cancerous "Diversity" quotas are real, so yes that is also part of my point. Hiring mentally retarded people just to tick a box and go "LOOK, WE SO PROGRESSIVE!" is fucking insulting to all parties involved.
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  #27768  
Old 05-14-2017, 07:35 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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The main problem is that the jobs that the mentally handicapped are capable will become sparse with increased automation.
Heck, the jobs the mentally sound can do are will become sparse with increase automation.
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  #27769  
Old 05-14-2017, 07:40 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Heck, the jobs the mentally sound can do are will become sparse with increase automation.
People should be training to do jobs that automation can't do or that it isn't cost effective for automation to do. At least in the US there is a big skills gap between what we are training people to do and what would satisfy aggregate demand.

Standing in the way of automation is standing in the way of the future. We should reap the benefits of increased efficiency and productivity and help people adapt to it.
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  #27770  
Old 05-14-2017, 07:49 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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People should be training to do jobs that automation can't do or that it isn't cost effective for automation to do. At least in the US there is a big skills gap between what we are training people to do and what would satisfy aggregate demand.

Standing in the way of automation is standing in the way of the future. We should reap the benefits of increased efficiency and productivity and help people adapt to it.
European public school should've worked to prepare the young for the future but it's the fucking opposite. They're not prepared, not in a long shot.
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  #27771  
Old 05-14-2017, 12:03 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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There are some things that are even not related to jobs that a lot of young people don't understand like networking. It would be difficult for a school to teach people how to shower, dress nice, and learn how to talk to people.

In the US I think it is a really entrenched system so it fights change. Mike Rowe has criticized it a lot. Instead of training people for what happens after school it trains them to perpetuate the institution. In the US because of it we have an overgrowth and a skills gap.
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  #27772  
Old 05-14-2017, 01:36 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
There are some things that are even not related to jobs that a lot of young people don't understand like networking. It would be difficult for a school to teach people how to shower, dress nice, and learn how to talk to people.

In the US I think it is a really entrenched system so it fights change. Mike Rowe has criticized it a lot. Instead of training people for what happens after school it trains them to perpetuate the institution. In the US because of it we have an overgrowth and a skills gap.
Which is why I'll never allow my children, if I against all odds ever have any, in public school. I'll put them in private school and school them myself as much as possible. I learned barely anything in school, I taught myself.
I still remember how bored I was when they started teaching us english and I was already ahead with 2 or 3 years.
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  #27773  
Old 05-15-2017, 01:56 PM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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So Netherlands how long do you plan to play Belgium and not have a government.
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  #27774  
Old 05-15-2017, 02:06 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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So Netherlands how long do you plan to play Belgium and not have a government.
Eh, 'not have a government' is a bit of an overstatement. Our parliament is surprisingly functional under these circumstances, it's just that there's no long-term policy in place, plus we kept the old minister-president for now.

As for when we'll have a new government, it could be a while yet. This was formation everyone was basically expecting to happen. I'm guessing that Groenlinks was the lynchpin, so they'll instead try and go with ChristenUnie next, but that could cause D66 to refuse. PVV D66 would also refuse. PvdA would be okay with everyone except PvdA doesn't want to be in the government for now. SP would probably have the same problem as Groenlinks.

If it's ChristenUnie, I expect a new government before the summer. If not, I expect the entire process to be a slow drag without results, eventually resulting in a minority coalition.
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Old 05-16-2017, 11:39 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Undercover in Idlib, video from the capital of IS' little brother:

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